Considering making a change

[ArmyMatt]

I watched the video and couldn't help but to notice in the comments that someone is asking for the Theotokos to save them. Is this consistent with the Eastern Orthodox view?

yes, but in the same sense that St Paul uses when he says "I have become all things to all men that I might save some."

 

[Phronema]

I watched the video and couldn't help but to notice in the comments that someone is asking for the Theotokos to save them. Is this consistent with the Eastern Orthodox view?

Yes it is, and is often said during the Divine Liturgy when her name is mentioned. But that is an expression of Christological dogma, and an acknowledgement of her role in bearing Christ as she is literally the Theotokos, or "the God-bearer". So through her obedience, and humility she agreed to bear Christ, and those words acknowledge her significance in that role.

Any glory of hers is due to Christ. The same with her "saving us". She doesn't do the saving, but we're asking for her to intercession to Christ to save us because she is "more honorable than the Cherubim, and beyond compare more glorious than the Seraphim". It can be off-putting due to the wording, but Christ is at the center of everything in Orthodoxy.

Here is a hymn dedicated to the Theotokos :

"It is truly right to bless thee, O Theotokos,
thou the ever blessed, and most pure, and the Mother of our God.
Thou the more honorable than the cherubim,
and beyond compare more glorious than the seraphim,
who without corruption gavest birth to God the Word,
thou the true Theotokos, we magnify thee."

 

[Brighid]

I watched the video and couldn't help but to notice in the comments that someone is asking for the Theotokos to save them. Is this consistent with the Eastern Orthodox view? This a wonderful, short video describing the holiness of the Theotokos. This video came out yesterday and the second part should come out today. The second video will specifically explain what is meant when we ask the Theotokos to save us.

 

[Brighid]

Here's the video:

 

[ironyUSA]

I am really struggling with this. Let me consider it a few days.

 

[Phronema]

I am really struggling with this. Let me consider it a few days.

I understand. Here is some hopefully helpful reading.

http://www.allsaints-stl.org/Most Holy Theotokos Save Us.pdf

 

[F.E.A.R.]

Since you said you've read "Lossky", you mean you read his book "The Mystical Theology of the Eastern Church"? This book is meant towards westerners so that they better understand the theology of the EO. Also you can't become EO without embracing what's taught. You pray to the Theotokos and the Saints because they're alive in Christ, asking them to pray for our sins.

 

[ironyUSA]

Yes, I have read "In the Image and Likeness of God" as well as "The Mystical Theology of the Eastern Church." I read Timothy Ware's "The Orthodox Church" a while back when I was looking for a high-level introduction.

A more specific question... in the Protestant world (or at least my experience of it) there are no real standard prayers. Are the prayers to Mary and the saints all recited or are they personalized?

If I am understanding this correctly, you'd never ask Mary or the saints to actually DO anything besides pray? I do see that as a way to unite the saints on earth with the saints who have gone before, so if I am understanding this correctly then I may not object as strongly as I previously thought.

I am now mostly hung up on the "save me" bit in the prayer to Mary, but I haven't exhausted the resources provided. I will continue to study them.

 

[Brighid]

Yes, I have read "In the Image and Likeness of God" as well as "The Mystical Theology of the Eastern Church." I read Timothy Ware's "The Orthodox Church" a while back when I was looking for a high-level introduction.

A more specific question... in the Protestant world (or at least my experience of it) there are no real standard prayers. Are the prayers to Mary and the saints all recited or are they personalized?

If I am understanding this correctly, you'd never ask Mary or the saints to actually DO anything besides pray? I do see that as a way to unite the saints on earth with the saints who have gone before, so if I am understanding this correctly then I may not object as strongly as I previously thought.

I am now mostly hung up on the "save me" bit in the prayer to Mary, but I haven't exhausted the resources provided. I will continue to study them.

We just ask the saints to pray for us. Mary "saves" us by praying for us. Of course, actual salvation comes through God, not Mary and is not a "one and done" salvation, it is ongoing. "Save us" in the context used with Mary really is just an old fashioned way of asking for prayer.

 

[F.E.A.R.]

A more specific question... in the Protestant world (or at least my experience of it) there are no real standard prayers. Are the prayers to Mary and the saints all recited or are they personalized?

There exist little prayer books, but the prayers are not personalized. If you're like me, if you can't learn them, the easiest prayer to say is the Jesus Prayer and "Most Holy Theotokos Save Us". You can't teach someone on how to pray, since every human being has it's own unique way of praying.

If I am understanding this correctly, you'd never ask Mary or the saints to actually DO anything besides pray? I do see that as a way to unite the saints on earth with the saints who have gone before, so if I am understanding this correctly then I may not object as strongly as I previously thought.

Nope, nothing other than praying as for as I know.

I am now mostly hung up on the "save me" bit in the prayer to Mary, but I haven't exhausted the resources provided. I will continue to study them.

It's "Save Us" not "Save Me", what you're asking for is for the Mother of God to pray for us sinners, so that we may be saved and not perish.

 

[ironyUSA]

Forgive my ignorance, but why would Mary need to pray that if Christ already wills to save all and promised to save those who believe?

I may have not communicated my previous question clearly. When you pray to the saints, is it like "pray for me that I may receive ____?" or are they all recited? In the Protestant world, I've always seen prayers addressed to God as if He's there to grant wishes.

Again, thank you all so much for taking the time to explain this and for providing resources. I already see some errors in my previous understanding.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Yes, I have read "In the Image and Likeness of God" as well as "The Mystical Theology of the Eastern Church." I read Timothy Ware's "The Orthodox Church" a while back when I was looking for a high-level introduction.

A more specific question... in the Protestant world (or at least my experience of it) there are no real standard prayers. Are the prayers to Mary and the saints all recited or are they personalized?

If I am understanding this correctly, you'd never ask Mary or the saints to actually DO anything besides pray? I do see that as a way to unite the saints on earth with the saints who have gone before, so if I am understanding this correctly then I may not object as strongly as I previously thought.

I am now mostly hung up on the "save me" bit in the prayer to Mary, but I haven't exhausted the resources provided. I will continue to study them.

you can ask Mary to do stuff for you, provided it's something God would allow her to do.

and you can do personal prayers as part of your own discipline.

 

[Brighid]

.

 

[Justin-H.S.]

The akathist to the Theotokos really helped me understand Orthodox ecclesiology.

Rejoice! for through you Israel receives the blessing of God!
Rejoice! For the Lord is roused up and has come to dwell in you!
Rejoice, O mystical courts of the Lord!
Rejoice, O giver of the Bread of Life!
Rejoice, O bestower of the Wine of Immortality!
Rejoice, O sacrificial altar of prophesy!
Rejoice, O mystical table of the Eucharist!
Etc. etc.

All these things are prayed to the Theotokos, but she also represents the Church, and do we not also ask for the Church to pray for us?

So, if you love Her you love the Church. She IS the Church. The Mystical table of the Eucharist. This is why there is a platytera which is the huge icon of her in the sanctuary. She IS the Ark of the Covenant. She contained the Word of God within her.

And what is Church? The Body of Christ. So, if you love her, you not only love the Church, but most importantly you love Christ. If you notice 98% of her icons she is with and pointing towards Him.

I’m still working out my relationship with her myself and I’m already baptized orthodox, so it’ll come eventually.

 

[Jude1:3Contendforthefaith]

The akathist to the Theotokos really helped me understand Orthodox ecclesiology.

Rejoice! for through you Israel receives the blessing of God!
Rejoice! For the Lord is roused up and has come to dwell in you!
Rejoice, O mystical courts of the Lord!
Rejoice, O giver of the Bread of Life!
Rejoice, O bestower of the Wine of Immortality!
Rejoice, O sacrificial altar of prophesy!
Rejoice, O mystical table of the Eucharist!
Etc. etc.

All these things are prayed to the Theotokos, but she also represents the Church, and do we not also ask for the Church to pray for us?

.

 

[nutroll]

The roots of a tree and the leaves of a tree are both part of the tree, even though one is hidden and somewhat mysterious to us. If the roots need more energy, the leaves gather it from the sun, and if the leaves need more water the roots collect it from the ground. The connection between the church militant (those still in this life) and the church triumphant (those departed this life) it's just as real and just as important, though it is a mystery how it all works. We pray for the departed as we're able, they pray for us as they're able. The saints help us like they helped people in their earthly lives. Look at the great intercessors in the Old Testament and how they stood between their people and God, sometimes making very bold requests with confidence because they knew God. The Saints are bold intercessors for those that they love. That can be hard to see at first, but once you see it happen, not asking for their help seems absurd.

 

[Goodhuman]

No you can't become orthodox without venerating the saints and angels.

 

[InnerPhyre]

I was raised in a charismatic church and, as soon as I could drive myself, I started attending Southern Baptist churches. A couple of years ago I started taking my faith much more seriously and found that I have some real problems with Protestant theology. As I read the works of the church fathers, I found an interest in Eastern Orthodoxy. I have read a bit of Vladimir Lossky and am blown away by the depth of theology here.

I have contacted the local Eastern Orthodox church about trying to attend... I am really stuck on a single point, however. I understand that Eastern Orthodoxy really views prayer differently than Protestants, but I sincerely don't understand praying to Mary or the saints. Is this really necessary or can someone become Eastern Orthodoxy without embracing this practice?

We pray to the saints. We ask them to pray for us. Is it necessary to pray to the saints to be Orthodox? No. Have I ever met an Orthodox Christian who did not ask for the prayers of the saints? No.

 

[prodromos]

The Church is a communion of love, which includes those who are still running the race and those who have completed the race. The Saints love Christ and by extension, all the members of His body, and their prayers for us flow out of that love.
The Saints often get quite personally involved with both individuals and groups in the Church and St Mary the Theotokos is no exception in that regard. She has become known for stepping in and saving people from all kinds of situations. So just like we would not think twice about begging a fireman to save our child from a burning building, or a surgeon to save your leg after a bad accident, it really is no different asking one of the Saints who is known for a particular thing to ask them directly to do that thing, whether it is St Xenia of St Petersburg to find a spouse, St Menas to locate something or St Panteleimon to heal someone. They do what they do by the grace of God, just as the Apostles healed people, drove out demons and raised the dead.

 

[prodromos]

No you can't become orthodox without venerating the saints and angels.

Certainly you can. Three thousand did so on the day of Pentecost without any need for veneration.