Considering making a change

[ironyUSA]

I was raised in a charismatic church and, as soon as I could drive myself, I started attending Southern Baptist churches. A couple of years ago I started taking my faith much more seriously and found that I have some real problems with Protestant theology. As I read the works of the church fathers, I found an interest in Eastern Orthodoxy. I have read a bit of Vladimir Lossky and am blown away by the depth of theology here.

I have contacted the local Eastern Orthodox church about trying to attend... I am really stuck on a single point, however. I understand that Eastern Orthodoxy really views prayer differently than Protestants, but I sincerely don't understand praying to Mary or the saints. Is this really necessary or can someone become Eastern Orthodoxy without embracing this practice?

 

[ArmyMatt]

welcome!

it's all over the Liturgy, so it's hard to ignore, but those things come in time.

but to the point, if the saints are alive in Christ, why wouldn't we pray to them?

 

[Photini83]

We take it seriously and literally when Christ says God is not a God of the dead, but of the living. We view the Theotokos (“God bearer,” because Christ is God Incarnate from conception) and the other saints and being alive to God, able to hear us (but not read our minds), and willing to intercede for those of us still in this earthly life. One’s personal interaction with the saints, however, is a matter of personal piety. No one should pressure you to pray to them, but it is a feature of the services (one of many). I’m relatively new, but inquired for years, and I’m just now starting to branch out beyond the Theotokos on occasion. So... “Come and see!” And feel free to take your time inquiring.

 

[Jude1:3Contendforthefaith]

I was raised in a charismatic church and, as soon as I could drive myself, I started attending Southern Baptist churches. A couple of years ago I started taking my faith much more seriously and found that I have some real problems with Protestant theology. As I read the works of the church fathers, I found an interest in Eastern Orthodoxy. I have read a bit of Vladimir Lossky and am blown away by the depth of theology here.

I have contacted the local Eastern Orthodox church about trying to attend... I am really stuck on a single point, however. I understand that Eastern Orthodoxy really views prayer differently than Protestants, but I sincerely don't understand praying to Mary or the saints. Is this really necessary or can someone become Eastern Orthodoxy without embracing this practice?

I came from a Baptist, Assemblies of God, Calvary Chapel background OP, so asking for the intercessions of Saints and Theotokos was one thing that was challenging for me in the beginning.

I have to tell you though, having the intersessions of The Holy Saints and Theotokos has helped me So Much.



In The Divine Liturgy of Saint John Chrysostom (398–404 A.D.) It Literally Says :

"Through The Intercessions of the Theotokos, Savior, save us"

The Divine Liturgy of Saint John Chrysostom - Liturgical Texts of the Orthodox Church - Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America



Also, in The Seventh Ecumenical Council (787 A.D.) it says :

"We salute the voices of the Lord and of His Apostles through which we have been taught to honor in the first place her who is properly and truly the Mother of God and exalted above all the heavenly Powers; also the holy and angelic powers; and the blessed and altogether lauded Apostles, and the glorious Prophets and the triumphant Martyrs which fought for Christ, and the holy and God-bearing Doctors, and all holy men;
AND TO SEEK FOR THEIR INTERCESSIONS, as able to render us at home with the all-royal God of all, so long as we keep His commandments, and strive to live virtuously ."


CHURCH FATHERS: Second Council of Nicaea

• The Seventh Ecumenical Council. The Second Council of Nicaea ( 787 A.D. )
- Extracts from the Acts. Session 4


So, we pretty much have to embrace and except it.

.

 

[Nathaniel Red]

I had issues with this as well for awhile, but though one could "theoretically" be an orthodox while not believing in this, it is practically impossible. We kiss icons regularly, prayers to Mary or other saints is throughout the services, icons adorn every wall, and there are processions done carrying icons. It is as much Orthodox as any other aspect. So if you disagree enough with protestant theology to not go to their churches, then this is significant enough. That said, I have never been good at praying to the saints, and outside the church it's not required of course.

One idea a priest told me that's helped is this: If there is someone on their deathbed, and you ask a friend or their mother to pray for them, is that the same thing as asking the doctor to help heal them? Also, the word "Pray" has undergone a change in meaning over time, think 'pray tell me'; So you could think of it like petitioning, speaking to, or something similar, though in the spirit. It's not worshiping Mary (though some catholic ideas bring them close to it, so do not confuse that with us) or any other saints. This has been repeatedly condemned. They are in a way role models for us. Everyone is a saint in heaven, but those declared as saints to us are those who showed such saintly virtues in life as to educate and inspire us now. Them being prayed to does not take away from Jesus being the one true intercessor any more than the old testament prophets could take away from Jesus being the one true prophet.

Again, this is an area where i am poor which is why i tried my hand at it to help myself as well, so forgive me if i state something mistakenly.

 

[Hermit76]

I'm a former Protestant pastor... both Baptist and later Charismatic/Pentecostal. I think that there's a lot of terminology that takes us back when we approach Eastern Orthodoxy as Western Protestants. "Prayer" is one of those words. Since we weren't raised to pray to anyone but God, prayer became synonymous with an act of worship. Worship in Eastern Orthodoxy is to God alone. However prayer is not limited to God. In a way we pray to the living when we ask them for their prayers. Though we believe that the prayers to the Saints are effective at a different level since they are in the presence of God and thus in a higher union with God. Prayer in this manner is not limited to those that have been named Saints. You can pray to anyone who has reposed (died). Most Orthodox have at least a couple of holy people that they ask for intercessions from. it's not a complicated teaching unless you've been taught like we were. My oldest son and wife are going through the same process as you are right now. The advice on here of "come and see" has really helped them. You shouldn't find pressure to convert or accept anything by just inquiring. If you're like most of us you'll find that the fullness of the ancient faith will eventually make sense as you journey forward.

And welcome to the forum. There's good folk on here that will help you.

 

[Hermit76]

I'll add this... A point that I had to contend with was that truth is truth even if it doesn't make sense to my worldview. There's an issue that I still struggle with accepting as a former Western Protestant. Fortunately it's not a major issue. Matter of fact I've never even seen it discussed on here. I know that it is the truth as taught by the earliest Christians. It matches scripture. Even my oldest son has embraced it (his comments have helped me a lot). My problem is due to mainly the vocabulary that I grew up with. So, there will be issues that you'll face. However, if you become convinced of the rightness of the Church they will become easier. I don't expect to ever fully disengage all of the worldview I had for 40 years. That is just part of the journey/struggle.

 

[ironyUSA]

Wow, thank you all for the helpful posts. I don't have any issue whatsoever with the concept of the Theotokos and I suppose my concern is a bit more nuanced. I do believe God is the God of the living and I don't really even mind the term prayer being used as kind of an act of supplication. I guess the more specific detail is that it seems that by praying to a saint, you must be assuming their omnipresence. Since an utterance is temporal and local, it seems that I'd need to assume the saints were omnipresent. Am I off-base on this? I'd prefer to see some scripture that implies this (I'm past sola Scriptua).

What really odd to me is that the Eastern Orthodox teachings on the resurrection of the human body really seems that whatever we are never really loses it locale. In other words, it's really a logistical concern for me. I am willing to read any resources y'all recommend. I don't have any issues with iconography or anything like that either.

 

[Jude1:3Contendforthefaith]

Another challenging thing for me OP was icons and kissing icons and Holy relics.

A verse that might help with that is :

Now God worked unusual miracles by the hands of Paul, so that even Handkerchiefs or Aprons were brought from his body to the sick, and the diseases left them and the evil spirits went out of them.
• Acts 19:11-12



The 7th Ecumenical Council (787 A.D.) also helps with that topic :

CHURCH FATHERS: Second Council of Nicaea

• The Seventh Ecumenical Council. The Second Council of Nicaea ( 787 A.D. )
Extracts from the Acts. Session 1


• Anathema to the calumniators of the Christians, that is to the image breakers.

• Anathema to those who apply the words of Holy Scripture which were spoken against idols, to the venerable images.

• Anathema to those who do not salute the holy and venerable images.

• Anathema to those who say that Christians have recourse to the images as to gods.

• Anathema to those who call the sacred images idols.

• Anathema to those who knowingly communicate with those who revile and dishonour the venerable images.

• Anathema to those who say that another than Christ our Lord hath delivered us from idols.

• Anathema to those who spurn the teachings of the holy Fathers and the tradition of the Catholic Church, taking as a pretext and making their own the arguments of Arius, Nestorius, Eutyches, and Dioscorus, that unless we were evidently taught by the Old and New Testaments, we should not follow the teachings of the holy Fathers and of the holy Ecumenical Synods, and the tradition of the Catholic Church.

• Anathema to those who dare to say that the Catholic Church hath at any time sanctioned idols.

• Anathema to those who say that the making of images is a diabolical invention and not a tradition of our holy Fathers.

.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Wow, thank you all for the helpful posts. I don't have any issue whatsoever with the concept of the Theotokos and I suppose my concern is a bit more nuanced. I do believe God is the God of the living and I don't really even mind the term prayer being used as kind of an act of supplication. I guess the more specific detail is that it seems that by praying to a saint, you must be assuming their omnipresence. Since an utterance is temporal and local, it seems that I'd need to assume the saints were omnipresent. Am I off-base on this? I'd prefer to see some scripture that implies this (I'm past sola Scriptua).

What really odd to me is that the Eastern Orthodox teachings on the reincarnation of the human body really seems that whatever we are never really loses it locale. In other words, it's really a logistical concern for me. I am willing to read any resources y'all recommend. I don't have any issues with iconography or anything like that either.

it's not the saints' omnipresence at all. rather, it's God's omnipotence. if He wills the Virgin Mary to hear a prayer of mine, He certainly can.

and we absolutely reject reincarnation.

 

[ironyUSA]

I am sorry... I meant "resurrection" not "reincarnation." My apologies.

I don't question God's ability, but 1 Timothy 2:5 surely has a different interpretation given the contexts. Is there a reason to believe that is, in fact, God's will? I don't know where the idea comes from.

 

[Photini83]

Wow, thank you all for the helpful posts. I don't have any issue whatsoever with the concept of the Theotokos and I suppose my concern is a bit more nuanced. I do believe God is the God of the living and I don't really even mind the term prayer being used as kind of an act of supplication. I guess the more specific detail is that it seems that by praying to a saint, you must be assuming their omnipresence. Since an utterance is temporal and local, it seems that I'd need to assume the saints were omnipresent. Am I off-base on this? I'd prefer to see some scripture that implies this (I'm past sola Scriptua).

What really odd to me is that the Eastern Orthodox teachings on the resurrection of the human body really seems that whatever we are never really loses it locale. In other words, it's really a logistical concern for me. I am willing to read any resources y'all recommend. I don't have any issues with iconography or anything like that either.

I’ll try to dig up the citations in a bit, but Samuel was aware of earthly goings on from beyond the grave, and somewhere in Revelation it mentions how the saints are aware of earthly matters from heaven. Also, in Hebrews it talks about how we are surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses — those are the saints. However, we do not believe they are omniscient; when we pray to them, we pray out loud. But we don’t view the separation between the heavenly realm and the earthly realm quite so solidly as Protestants do, particularly more recent denominations.

Christ is the only mediator because only in Him are humanity and divinity joined. The verse isn’t about intercession, or we would be sinning by praying for each other here on earth.

 

[Jude1:3Contendforthefaith]

Check this out OP :

• The earliest known prayer to the Theotokos 250 A.D.

Beneath your
compassion
we take refuge,
Theotokos! Our
prayers, do not despise
in necessities,
but from danger
deliver us,
only pure,
only blessed one.

.

 

[ironyUSA]

Excellent point on intercession!

Yes, if you can please provide those references. I'll read and meditate on them, so it may take me a bit to answer back. Theosis is perhaps one of the most profound concepts I've ever encountered and I can honestly say I've never heard the term in a Protestant church. Views on the atonement are really what have started the unraveling of my Protestant belief.

 

[Jude1:3Contendforthefaith]

Excellent point on intercession!

Yes, if you can please provide those references. I'll read and meditate on them, so it may take me a bit to answer back. Theosis is perhaps one of the most profound concepts I've ever encountered and I can honestly say I've never heard the term in a Protestant church. Views on the atonement are really what have started the unraveling of my Protestant belief.

Here's all the links :

CHURCH FATHERS: Second Council of Nicaea

The Divine Liturgy of Saint John Chrysostom - Liturgical Texts of the Orthodox Church - Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America

Sub tuum praesidium - Wikipedia

.

 

[Photini83]

Excellent point on intercession!

Yes, if you can please provide those references. I'll read and meditate on them, so it may take me a bit to answer back. Theosis is perhaps one of the most profound concepts I've ever encountered and I can honestly say I've never heard the term in a Protestant church. Views on the atonement are really what have started the unraveling of my Protestant belief.

Hebrews 12:1 (back up and read ch. 11 -- the "Hall of Faith"; we consider the saints to simply be a continuation of this list into the present day).
1 Samuel 28
Revelation 6:9-11 (We don't pore over Revelation for a few reasons, but it's there, and my non-denominational, Protestant Bible study even recognized this passage as the martyrs being at least somewhat aware of what's going on on earth.)

And I'm sorry; I misread when you said "omnipresence" as "omniscience."

 

[Brighid]

Just show up and the Holy Spirit will teach you. My first service was Vespers (Saturday night prayers) and looking back just a few months later, I'm amazed at what God showed me that night. Asking for the saints to pray to God for you isn't any more necessary than asking your friend at Bible study to pray for you, but once you experience their help, you will probably want to put your name on their prayer list, so to speak.
I'm a catechumen and there's a lot I'm still adjusting to, but for me, the point I always return to, is who is the "finished product" of the protestant churches vs. the "finished product" of the Orthodox Church? Even if I don't understand why things are done a certain way, I want at least the opportunity to walk with God as the saints do.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I am sorry... I meant "resurrection" not "reincarnation." My apologies.

I don't question God's ability, but 1 Timothy 2:5 surely has a different interpretation given the contexts. Is there a reason to believe that is, in fact, God's will? I don't know where the idea comes from.

mediation is one thing, intercession is another. Christ is our only mediator because only He is where the fullness of Divinity and humanity unite. He is the one that bridges the gap between the created and the Uncreated, if that makes sense.

intercession is prayer, which all humans can do.

 

[peregrinus2017]

Wow, thank you all for the helpful posts. I don't have any issue whatsoever with the concept of the Theotokos and I suppose my concern is a bit more nuanced. I do believe God is the God of the living and I don't really even mind the term prayer being used as kind of an act of supplication. I guess the more specific detail is that it seems that by praying to a saint, you must be assuming their omnipresence. Since an utterance is temporal and local, it seems that I'd need to assume the saints were omnipresent. Am I off-base on this? I'd prefer to see some scripture that implies this (I'm past sola Scriptua).

There have always been godly men and woman living here that God has revealed things to that were beyond their ability to know. Why would it be different with those who have gone before us, especially when it is God's desire that we pray for one another? (James 5:16)

 

[ironyUSA]

.

I watched the video and couldn't help but to notice in the comments that someone is asking for the Theotokos to save them. Is this consistent with the Eastern Orthodox view?