consider sequence

[Maon]

BOOK OF SEVEN SEALES

Throughout the Church Age, or Age of the Gentiles, the book of Revelation has inspired the Church; and the sequence of the Seven Seals (chapters 5—11) has an awesome challenge for today.

I. Age of Proclamation
A. Cp. 5—6:1-8. Four Horsemen; Seals One through Four
Chapter five anticipates the One who is worthy to open the seals and initiate the proclamation of the Gospel. Jesus Christ is His name. While still on earth, He declared, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth” (Matt.28:18). It is He that rides the white horse (19:11), the symbol of power and authority.
The horsemen illustrate the conflict and devastation that flows from rejecting peace through Christ. One-forth are killed (6:8); millions have died from wars, massacres, starvation, and plagues of death. As Daniel wrote, “. . . to the end there will be war; desolations are determined" (Dan. 9:26b).
Even with the record of history, however, one interpretation suggests that the four horsemen are dormant until the end of the age. If that is true, we might wonder if Heaven had any interest in the proclamation. A similar question was evident with John, for it first appeared in his vision that none were found worthy to open the seals (5:4). He apparently understood that someone must open the seals to set loose the course of earth’s redemption. And he wept. Then John wrote, "One of the elders said to me, 'Stop weeping; behold, the Lion that is from the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has overcome so as to open the book and its seven seals (5:5).'" He saw “. . . myriads of myriads, and thousands of thousands . . . saying with a loud voice, ‘Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing (5:11-12).’”

B. Cp 6:9-11. Fifth Seal; the martyred wait in Heaven
The saints witness in a world of lawless iniquity; they are persecuted and killed. The fifth seal revealed the martyred in Heaven waiting for the last persecution of fellow-servants, and also waiting for the reckoning of judgment.
Saints anticipate a day when judgment is passed upon an unrepentant world— and the Lord will “wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there shall no longer be any death; there shall no longer be any mourning or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away (21:4).

C. Cp. 6:12—7:17. Sixth Seal; Sealing of Saints on Earth
The sixth seal is an overview for destruction that will come at the end of the age. This is understood because a command to delay or restrain would not allow immediate action. Destruction of earth was introduced (6:12-17), but John “saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth holding back the four winds of the earth . . . “ (7:1); and the command was given, “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until we have sealed the bond-servants of our God on their foreheads” (7:3). Therefore, restraint was commanded to allow for proclamation of the Gospel and sealing believers.
John also looked beyond the end time, and he saw the fruit of the restraint with the redeemed standing before the throne---

“. . . from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands; and they cry out with a loud voice, saying ‘Salvation to out God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb" (7:9-10).

D. Cp. 8:1-12. Seventh Seal: Trumpets One through Four
Greater detail was given with trumpets one through four; and we come to understand there will be 1/3rd of earth’s land, the sea, fresh waters, and the air that will be destroyed. However, the restraint of the sixth seal (7:3) is still in force— because it was also commanded of the fifth trumpet. We could not argue here for the end to restraint if the following trumpet continued to be restrained.
In any case, angles are different from the horsemen. They destroy the earth; the horsemen do not destroy the earth. Their ratio of devastation is greater, 1/3rd verses 1/4th. They are restrained from action before the saints are sealed; the horsemen are not restrained during the sealing of saints. For the reader, angels of destruction imply unspecified powers reserved for the future.
Nevertheless, man is the cause of earth’s destruction. This is understood because God will “destroy those that destroy the earth” (11:18). God will not destroy the earth! It is all man’s doing. “The earth reels to and fro like a drunkard, and it totters like a shack, for its transgression is heavy upon it . . . “ (Isa.24:20).

II. End Time; Three Woes
A. Cp. 8:13—9:12. Seventh Seal: Fifth Trumpet, First Woe
The end is near. The fifth trumpet is the first of the end time woes, and it was expressed as a locust army that torments for “five months.” Although there is no indication of Christian or Hebrew origin for the locusts, they torment “only the men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads” (9:4).
However, restraint was also placed on the locust army: “. . . they were told that they could not hurt the grass on the earth, nor any green thing, nor any tree” (9:4). The destruction of habitable earth was again delayed or restrained.

B. Cp. 9:12---11:14, Seventh Seal, Sixth Trumpet, Second Woe

“And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God, one saying to the sixth angel who had the trumpet, ‘release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates. And the four angels, who had been prepared for the hour and day and month and year, were released, so that they might kill a third of mankind’” (9:13-15).

Commands were given to wait for servants to be sealed. Now, with the sixth trumpet and second woe, restraint is removed. Destruction begins when four angels are set loose at the Euphrates River; 1/3rd of the earth will be destroyed, 1/3rd of mankind killed.
When it is finished---

“. . . they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, ‘Come up here.’ And they went up into heaven in the cloud, and their enemies beheld them. And in that hour there was a great earthquake, and a tenth of the city fell; and seven thousand
people were killed in the earthquake, and the rest were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven. The second woe is past, behold, the third woe is coming quickly (11:12-14).”

The second woe and tribulation ends with the resurrection. Living saints are waiting on earth, and saints come with our Lord. The great trumpet sounds. Corpses are commanded, “Come up here.”
We learn from Zechariah’s prophecy, “Then the Lord my God, will come, and all the holy ones with Him” (Zech 14:5b). Paul also urged the Thessalonian Christians to be without blame “at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all his saints" (I Thess. 3:13). As it was the custom for the bridal party to go out and meet the groom, the saints of all ages will come to earth, put on incorruptible garments in the resurrection, then go out/up and be with the Lord.

“For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we shall always be with the Lord” (I Thess. 4:16-17).

“Behold, I tell you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet, for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality” (I Cor.15:51-53).

However, the amazing defense of the Church will come after the saints are martyred. It will be proved in the resurrection, and the Church will be triumphant. God in Christ will prove once and for all that death and the gates of hell cannot prevail against His Church. Resurrection is the proof of it all.
Return to Judea.Zechariah wrote, “And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives . . . “(Zech. 14:4). First, there will be repentance in Jerusalem, a great awakening:

“And it will come about in that day that I will set about to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. And I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and supplication, so that they will
look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for
Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him, like the bitter weeping over a first-born” (Zech. 12:9-10; compare Rev. 1:7).

Second, “And the nations were enraged, and Thy wrath came” (Rev. 11:18a). The wrath of Christ will destroy those that destroy the earth, and destroy the nations that come against Jerusalem. It will be administered in Person — and the “lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming” (II Thess. 2:8).

“And the seventh angel sounded; and there arose loud voices in heaven, saying, The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord, and His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever” (Rev. 11:14-15).

 

[Bible2]

Maon said in post 1:

Throughout the Church Age, or Age of the Gentiles, the book of Revelation has inspired the Church; and the sequence of the Seven Seals (chapters 5—11) has an awesome challenge for today.

Regarding "the Church Age", there's no such thing, because the church will continue on the earth throughout all ages (Eph. 3:21). The church will continue on the earth throughout the future tribulation of Rev. chs. 6-18/Mt. 24 (Mt. 24:9-13, Rev. 13:7-10, 14:12-13, 20:4), & then throughout the subsequent millennium (Rev. 20:4-6, 5:10, 2:26-29), & then forever on the new earth (Rev. 21:1-22:5).

Maon said in post 1:

Throughout the Church Age, or Age of the Gentiles, the book of Revelation has inspired the Church; and the sequence of the Seven Seals (chapters 5—11) has an awesome challenge for today.

Regarding the "Age of the Gentiles", the Bible's "times of the Gentiles" will include the treading down of Jerusalem (Lk. 21:24) during the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Rev. 11:2b, 13:5-18).

Also, the Bible saying "until the fulness (pleroma) of the Gentiles be come in" (Rom. 11:25) means until a full number of genetic Gentile individuals have become saved, which won't happen until right before Jesus' 2nd coming (Rom. 11:26).

Immediately after the tribulation, at Jesus' 2nd coming (Mt. 24:29-30), all the unsaved elect genetic Jews will become saved (Rom. 11:26-28) by God's grace when they see the returned Jesus in person & believe in him (Zech. 12:10-14). And so they'll all become part of the church at that time, just as when genetic Jews believe in Jesus now they become part of the church, for there are now no believers outside of the church (Eph. 4:4-6).

And the genetic Jews who will become believers at the 2nd coming will all become part of the church by receiving some measure of the Holy Spirit, who is "the spirit of grace and of supplications" in Zech. 12:10 (Heb. 10:29c, Rom. 8:26), just as genetic Jewish believers today become part of the church by receiving some measure of the Holy Spirit, for it's by receiving some measure of the Holy Spirit that both genetic Jewish believers & genetic Gentile believers become part of the church (1 Cor. 12:13).

Maon said in post 1:

Throughout the Church Age, or Age of the Gentiles, the book of Revelation has inspired the Church; and the sequence of the Seven Seals (chapters 5—11) has an awesome challenge for today.

Regarding "the sequence of the Seven Seals", the first seal's horseman, on the white horse (Rev. 6:1-2), could represent the gospel of Jesus (not Jesus himself: Acts 3:21) going forth to all the nations of the earth & victoriously saving souls. For Jesus is the rider on the white horse seen later in Rev. 19:11,13 (cf. Jn. 1:1,14), & his gospel will be preached to all the nations of the earth during the future tribulation (Mt. 24:14, Rev. 14:6). The bow (Rev. 6:2) is a weapon that's able to affect things far away, just as the gospel is able to affect things far away from where it began (Lk. 24:47).

The last 3 of the 4 horsemen (Rev. 6:4-8) represent a horrible future war which will begin the coming tribulation of Rev. chs. 6-18, which war will, with its aftermath of famines & epidemics, end up killing 1/4 of the world (Rev. 6:8). The "great sword" of this war (Rev. 6:4) could be Israel's nuclear weapons.

Maon said in post 1:

The second woe and tribulation ends with the resurrection. Living saints are waiting on earth, and saints come with our Lord. The great trumpet sounds. Corpses are commanded, “Come up here.”

Regarding "Corpses are commanded, 'Come up here.'", a reference to Revelation 11:12, the "Come up here" isn't addressed to corpses, but to the just-resuscitated two witnesses (Revelation 11:11).

Also, regarding "the resurrection", the future raising of the two witnesses from the dead (Rev. 11:11) won't occur at the church's resurrection into immortality at Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Cor. 15:21-23,51-53), but will be like, for example, the past resuscitation of the mortal bodies of Lazarus and Tabitha (Jn. 11:43-44, Acts 9:36-40). And the future ascension of the two witnesses "up" into heaven (Rev. 11:12) won't occur at the church's rapture at the 2nd coming (1 Thes. 4:15-17), but will be like, for example, the past ascension of the mortal bodies of Enoch and Elijah into heaven (Heb. 11:5, 2 Kin. 2:11).

For the two witnesses' resuscitation and ascension will occur at one point during the tribulation of Rev. chs. 6-18/Mt. 24, as part of its 2nd woe/6th trumpet (Rev. 11:14, 9:12-13), before the tribulation's 7th trumpet sounds (Rev. 11:15). And then out of the 7th trumpet's heavenly temple opening will come the 7 plagues of the 7 vials (Rev. 11:19, 15:5-16:1), the tribulation's final stage (Rev. 16). But the church's resurrection into immortality and its being raptured (gathered together to Jesus) won't occur until after the entire tribulation is over (Mt. 24:29-31, 2 Thes. 2:1-8, Rev. 19:7-20:6), after the 7th vial has been completed (Rev. 16:17,19, 19:2-20:6), at Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Cor. 15:21-23,52-53, 1 Thes. 4:15-17). Also, the two witnesses, like Enoch and Elijah did (and also like the apostles Paul and John each did, temporarily, at one point during their lifetimes: 2 Cor. 12:2,7, Rev. 4:1-2), will ascend "up" all the way into the 3rd heaven (Rev. 11:12). But the church will be raptured only as high as the clouds of the sky (the first heaven) to hold a meeting in the air with Jesus at his 2nd coming (1 Thes. 4:15-17).

 

[vinsight4u]

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[vinsight4u]

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[Bible2]

vinsight4u said in post 3:

The seven trumpets happen ahead of the 7th seal, not after it.

The seven trumpets will happen after the 7th seal, for they will come out of the 7th seal (Rev. 8:1-2).

vinsight4u said in post 3:

The wrath of God begins in the 6th seal, you can only have wrath of God events as plagues after that time.

Regarding "The wrath of God begins in the 6th seal", nothing requires that.

The tribulation's 6th seal (Rev. 6:12-14) will happen sometime before the day of the Lord (Joel 2:31, Rev. 6:12), whereas the day of the Lord/Christ (2 Thes. 2:2) will begin at his 2nd coming (1 Cor. 1:7-8, 2 Thes. 2:1-8, 1:7-10), which won't happen until Rev. 19:7-20:6, immediately after the future tribulation of Rev. chs. 6-18/Mt. 24 (Mt. 24:29-31, 2 Thes. 2:1-8).

The people quoted at the 6th seal (Rev. 6:17), during only the first stage of the tribulation, could be just as mistaken as Job was when Job said that what was happening to him was God's wrath against him (Job 19:11). Just as what was happening to Job was actually Satan's wrath against him, not God's wrath, so the 6th seal could actually be Satan's wrath, not God's wrath. Just as the writer of the book of Job didn't go out of his way to correct Job's mistaken statement in Job 19:11, & just as the apostles John & Matthew didn't go out of their ways to correct the mistaken statements of the people they quoted in Jn. 7:12b & Mt. 27:63a, so the apostle John could have not gone out of his way to correct the statement of the people he quoted in Rev. 6:17.

After the tribulation's 6th seal will occur its 7th seal (Rev. 8:1), out of which will come its seven trumpets (Rev. 8:1-2). Nothing requires that any of the first six trumpets' events in Rev. chs. 8-9 will be God's wrath. The 5th trumpet's events will be the work of weird locust-like beings from the bottomless pit (Rev. 9:2-10) led by a fallen angel from the bottomless pit (Rev. 9:11). And the 6th trumpet's events to the end of Rev. 9 will be the work of weird horse-like beings led by four fallen angels previously bound at the Euphrates (Rev. 9:14-19). So even though good angels of God will sound the six trumpets, this could simply be announcing God's allowing the wrath of Satan to destroy 1/3 of different things (Rev. 8:7-12, 9:15,18), just as Satan will subsequently, mid-tribulation, be allowed by God to cause 1/3 of the angels to be cast down to the earth for good (Rev. 12:4,9).

vinsight4u said in post 3:

The trumpets are not wrath of God plagues in trumpets 1-6.

That's right, or nothing requires they will be.

vinsight4u said in post 3:

What starts in Rev. 11:18? Thy wrath is come

Rev. 11:18 can mean it will be at the 7th trumpet (Rev. 11:15) that the plagues of the vials of God's wrath (Rev. 16), the tribulation's final stage, will come out of the 7th trumpet's heavenly temple opening (Rev. 11:19, 15:5-16:1).


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vinsight4u said in post 4:

The two witnesses are raised at the same hour as a great earthquake.
Check the great earthquake found in the time of the 6th seal!

The 2nd woe/6th trumpet earthquake (Rev. 11:13-14, cf. 9:12-13) will destroy 1/10 of Jerusalem (Rev. 11:8,13) and kill 7,000 people (Rev. 11:13), right after the two witnesses are resuscitated and taken "up" to heaven (Rev. 11:11-13). There will be a subsequent earthquake after the 7th trumpet sounds (Rev. 11:15,19). And then there will be another earthquake after the 7th vial is poured out (Rev. 16:17-20). Between the 7th trumpet and 7th vial, the first 6 vials will occur in order (Rev. 16). Before all these earthquakes, one will occur after the 7th seal is unsealed (Rev. 8:1,5) and before the first trumpet sounds (Rev. 8:7). There will also be another, even-earlier earthquake after the 6th seal is unsealed (Rev. 6:12).

 

[vinsight4u]

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[vinsight4u]

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[vinsight4u]

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[Interplanner]

To Bible2:
You'll need to recalibrate because Mt 24 & //s before v29 is about the 1st century Judean setting, and 'ge' often means just the land of Israel.

Otherwise, you're quite close, but don't try to be literal with Rev; it wasn't written that way. God never intended to be a part of the prognostication industry.

--Inter

 

[Maon]

I attempt to concern myself with the context and flow of scripture. In the end, the one that winds souls is wise--that is, win to Jesus Christ, not to one's self.

Your rebuttals, if that is what was intended, are systematic to the edge of confusion, but Interesting. Thank you.

 

[Bible2]

vinsight4u said in post 7:

7th trumpet time -is resurrection of the just / His appearing time!

Jesus' 2nd coming won't occur immediately after the sounding of the tribulation's 7th trumpet and the declaration of the replacement of the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5 year worldwide reign (Rev. 13:5-18, 12:6,14) with Jesus' reign (Rev. 11:15). For a "time" (Rev. 11:18) can last awhile (cf. Rev. 12:14). (It's like if someone said "It's time this house gets sold"; this doesn't mean it will get sold immediately.) The only part of Rev. 11:18 that will happen immediately after the 7th trumpet sounds is "thy wrath is come", for the plagues of the vials (Rev. 16), the tribulation's final stage, will come out of the 7th trumpet's heavenly temple opening (Rev. 11:19, 15:5-16:1). So the 7th trumpet (Rev. 11:15-19), even though it will be the last trumpet to sound during the tribulation, it won't be the resurrection "last trump" of 1 Cor. 15:52. The latter won't sound until after the entire tribulation of Rev. chs. 6-18/Mt. 24 is over, at Jesus' 2nd coming (Mt. 24:29-31, 1 Thes. 4:15-16), which won't occur until Rev. 19, and which is when the church will be resurrected (Rev. 19:7-20:6, 1 Cor. 15:21-23,51-54, 1 Thes. 4:15-16).

Before the 2nd coming, the tribulation's final, Rev. 16 stage could last for 75 days. For Rev. 16's first vial could be poured out immediately after the 1,260 days of the Antichrist's worldwide reign, which 1,260 days could begin at the setting up of the abomination of desolation (Mt. 24:15, Dan. 11:31,36), and Jesus could return on the 1,335th day after the setting up of the abomination of desolation (Dan. 12:11-12, Rev. 16:15). An analogy for the possible 75-day vials delay between Jesus taking legal possession of the earth (Rev. 11:15) and his return to take de facto, physical possession of it (Rev. chs. 19-20) would be someone in New York legally inheriting a house in California 75 days before he moves there to live in that house.

At Jesus' 2nd coming, he will resurrect and judge only the church (1 Cor. 15:21-23, 1 Thes. 4:15-16, Rev. 19:7-20:6, Ps. 50:3-6, cf. Mk. 13:27), and then he will marry the obedient part of the church (Rev. 19:7-8, Mt. 25:1-12). Immediately after that, Rev. 19:11-21 will occur. So both the resurrection and the rewarding of the church spoken of in Rev. 11:18, as well as the destroying of the destroyers of the earth spoken of in Rev. 11:18, could occur 75 days after the 7th trumpet's sounding. And because a "time" can last awhile (cf. Rev. 12:14), this would still be well within the "time" referred to in Rev. 11:18. Everyone not resurrected and judged at Jesus' 2nd coming won't be resurrected and judged until Rev. 20:11-15, which won't occur until sometime after the returned Jesus and the bodily resurrected church have reigned on the earth for 1,000 years (Rev. 20:4-6, 5:10, 2:26-29). Both resurrections and judgments can still occur within Rev. 11:18's "time", for the original Greek word (kairos, G2540) translated there as "time" can refer to even quite a long period. For example, the same Greek word is used in 2 Cor. 6:2 to refer to the "time" of people getting saved, which has been going on for some 2,000 years.

vinsight4u said in post 7:

The end of Rev. 15 is actually where John watched the seven trumpets being sounded. He learned at that time that it would take the seven plagues of the seven angels before men could enter into the temple in heaven.

Rev. 15:8 doesn't mean no man had been in the temple building in heaven up to that time. Instead, Rev. 15:8b simply means at that time the people already in the temple building in heaven (e.g. Rev. 7:9,14-15, Rev. 15:2) will have to exit it temporarily & won't be allowed back in until the 7 plagues of the vials (or bowls) of wrath of Rev. chs. 15-16 are over. The people in the temple building in heaven in Rev. 7:9,14-15 will have been there for years before the 7 plagues/vials even start, for Rev. 7 is after only the tribulation's 6th seal (Rev. 6:12) & before the 7th seal & the subsequent events of the first 6 trumpets (Rev. 8:1-2) up to Rev. 9:19, after which events will come the Antichrist's literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (which time period is shown from 4 different angles in Rev. chs. 11-14), only after which time period will come the 7 plagues/vials.

 

[Bible2]

Interplanner said in post 9:

You'll need to recalibrate because Mt 24 & //s before v29 is about the 1st century Judean setting, and 'ge' often means just the land of Israel.

Regarding "is about the 1st century", just as the highly detailed tribulation events of Rev. chs. 6-18 have never been fulfilled, so the tribulation events of Mt. 24, Mk. 13, Lk. 21 have never been fulfilled. For example, Lk. 21:24 refers to the same future treading down of Jerusalem by the Gentiles as Rev. 11:2b, during the Antichrist's future, literal 42-month worldwide reign. And Jesus' second coming and the church's gathering together (rapture) in Mt. 24:30-31 (2 Thes. 2:1-8, 1 Thes. 4:15-17) has never been fulfilled, but must occur immediately after the future tribulation of Mt. 24/Rev. chs. 6-18 (Mt. 24:29-31, 2 Thes. 2:1-8, Rev. 19:7-20:6).

Also, the end of Herod's temple building (also called the second temple building) in 70 AD didn't fulfill Mt. 24:2, for the stones of the second temple complex's Western Wall (also called the Wailing Wall) still stand today one on top of the other, just as they did when Jesus spoke that prophecy. Mt. 24:2 included the Wailing Wall, for Mt. 24:2 wasn't referring to only the single second temple building in the center of the Temple Mount (the building that contained the holy place and the most holy place), but was referring to "all these things", all the plural "buildings"/structures/oikodome (G3619) of the entire second temple complex (Mt. 24:1). Indeed, Mt. 24:2 could even have been spoken just to the north of the Wailing Wall, for it was spoken just after Jesus had departed from the temple complex (Mt. 24:1), and one of the main temple complex exits (called Wilson's Arch and bridge by archaeologists) was just to the north of the Wailing Wall and at the same level as the top of the Temple Mount (see the temple complex map insert in the Dec. 2008 issue of National Geographic magazine).

Also, Mt. 24:2's "here" included not just the entire second temple complex, but every structure throughout Jerusalem, for the similar statement in Lk. 19:44 applied to the whole city (Lk. 19:41-44). Mt. 24:2 and Lk. 19:44 could be fulfilled at the very end of the future tribulation of Rev. chs. 6-18/Mt. 24, right before and at Jesus' 2nd coming (Zech. 14:2-21, Rev. 19:7-20:6).

Also, just as Mt. 24:2 wasn't fulfilled in 70 AD, so Mt. 24:15 wasn't fulfilled in 70 AD.

In Mt. 24:15, Jesus is referring to Dan. 11:31. Its "abomination of desolation" was typically fulfilled by the abomination of desolation in 1 Maccabees 1:54, which occurred in the holy place of the second Jewish temple in Jerusalem in the time of Antiochus IV. But per Jesus' statement in Mt. 24:15, the church will see the abomination of desolation in Dan. 11:31 fulfilled (antitypically) in the future, when the church will see the abomination of desolation "stand" "in" the holy place (of a third Jewish temple in Jerusalem). This future abomination of desolation could be a standing, android image of the Antichrist (Rev. 13:15) which his followers ("they") will put in the holy place of the temple (Dan. 11:31) to be worshipped (Rev. 13:15), after "they" have stopped the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices which the ultra-Orthodox Jews will have restarted in front of the temple (Dan. 11:31). This image will "pollute" the holy place of the temple (Dan. 11:31).

The Antichrist will then fulfill Dan. 11:36/2 Thes. 2:4 by sitting himself in the temple and proclaiming himself God. By the power of Satan (the dragon, Rev. 12:9), the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) will then rule and be worshipped by all the nations of the earth for 3.5 literal years (Rev. 13:4-18), and will physically overcome Biblical Christians in every nation (Rev. 13:7-10, 14:12-13, 20:4-6, Mt. 24:9-13).

Also, from the day on which (antitypically) "the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be 1,290 days. Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the 1,335 days" (Dan. 12:11-12, Rev. 16:15). Also, because the Antichrist will fulfill Dan. 11:31 antitypically and will fulfill Dan. 11:36 for the first (and only) time, then he will also fulfill all of Dan. 11:21-45 (the first part of it antitypically, and the rest for the first and only time) when he arises on the world stage, for that passage refers to the career of the same man. And since the Antichrist will fulfill all of Dan. 11:21-45 when he arises on the world stage, then just preceding his arising on the world stage, Dan. 11:13-19 could be fulfilled antitypically by an Iraqi Baathist General completely defeating and occupying Israel and Egypt with a huge Iraqi Army (Dan. 11:15-17; in verse 17 the original Hebrew word translated as "daughter" is "bath").

 

[Bible2]

Interplanner said in post 9:

You'll need to recalibrate because Mt 24 & //s before v29 is about the 1st century Judean setting, and 'ge' often means just the land of Israel.

Regarding "Judean setting" (like in Mt. 24:16), there are many churches in Judaea (southern Israel) today, and they contain mostly Gentile believers, not just Jewish believers. The church began and has always been in Judaea: "Then had the churches rest throughout all Judaea" (Acts 9:31); "the churches of Judaea" (Gal. 1:22); "the churches... in Judaea" (1 Thes. 2:14). Mt. 24:16 refers to those in the church, both Gentiles and Jews, who will still be living in Judaea at the future point in time when the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place of a third Jewish temple in Jerusalem (Mt. 24:15, Dan. 11:31).

The Antichrist's persecution of the church could begin in Jerusalem and Judaea right after the abomination of desolation is set up and the Antichrist himself sits in the temple and proclaims himself God (2 Thes. 2:4, Dan. 11:36). So to avoid this persecution (cf. Mt. 10:23a), those in the church living in Judaea should flee immediately after they see the abomination of desolation set up (Mt. 24:15-16), which event could occur at the midpoint of the future tribulation of Rev. chs. 6-18/Mt. 24, and which event could mark the start of the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Rev. 13:4-18). Eventually, the Antichrist's persecution of the church will reach every nation of the world (Rev. 13:7-10, 14:12-13, 20:4-6, Mt. 24:9-13), so that the basic principle of Mt. 24:16 of fleeing (the Antichrist's persecution) would apply to believers around the world.

Just as the woman in Rev. 12:6 represents many different people in the church around the world, so the protected wilderness place she flees to represents many different protected wilderness places around the world. When those in the church living in Judaea see the abomination of desolation set up, they should flee into places in the wilderness east of Judaea, the mountains (Mt. 24:16) of Jordan. And those in the church who will be living in places in the world other than Judaea should flee into other wilderness places, mountainous places (Ezek. 7:16), in the regions of the world where they live.

And they should have prepared beforehand hideouts in these wilderness/mountain places, hideouts already fully stocked with all the emergency supplies of food, water, warm clothing, etc., that they and their families and fellow Christians will need to survive (1 Tim. 5:8, Mt. 24:45-46, cf. Gen. 41:48,36, 45:7) until Jesus returns, possibly on the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation is set up (Dan. 12:11-12, Rev. 16:15). For they shouldn't carry any supplies with them when they flee (Mt. 24:17-18). They should flee as unhindered and quickly as possible, knowing that when the abomination of desolation is set up, that could signal the beginning of the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year Luciferian (Satanic) worldwide reign of terror (Rev. 13:4-18, 12:9), when he will be given power to make war against all those in the church that he can get his hands on, and to physically overcome them and kill them (by beheading) in every nation (Rev. 13:7-10, 14:12-13, 20:4-6, Mt. 24:9-13).

Interplanner said in post 9:

Otherwise, you're quite close, but don't try to be literal with Rev; it wasn't written that way.

Revelation is almost entirely literal, for it's unsealed (Rev. 22:10), meaning that it shouldn't be difficult for saved people of any time to understand it if they simply read it as it's written: chronologically & almost-entirely literally. The few parts of it that are symbolic are almost always explained afterward (e.g. Rev. 1:20, 17:9-12), and Revelation's few symbols not explained afterward (e.g. Rev. 13:2) are usually explained elsewhere in the Bible (e.g. Dan. 7:4-7,17). Just as Jesus' second coming in Rev. 19:7-20:3 will be fulfilled almost entirely literally, so the events of the preceding tribulation in Rev. chs. 6-18 will be fulfilled almost entirely literally. Also, the millennium in Rev. 20 will be literal, and will begin after Jesus' second coming (Rev. 19:7-20:6, Zech. 14:3-21), when he will reign on the earth with the bodily resurrected church for 1,000 years (Rev. 20:4-6, 5:10, 2:26-29, Ps. 66:3-4, 72:8-11). After that, the events of Rev. 20:7-22:5 will occur literally.

 

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[Bible2]

vinsight4u said in post 14:

Revelation needs a set of angels doing something before there can be a set of "the seven angels" show up in Rev. 8:2.

Rev. 8:2's "the" doesn't require John had mentioned those 7 angels previously in Revelation. For at the time of Rev. 8:2, John says "I saw the seven angels which stood before God" (Rev. 8:2). That is, he can be introducing this particular group of angels to us for the first time, just as, for example, someone could introduce a particular library to us for the first time by saying "I went to the library which is downtown".

vinsight4u said in post 14:

John has hidden part of Revelation as it was not for his day.

The only parts that are hidden are those which say they're hidden. All the rest of Revelation is unsealed:

"Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand" (Revelation 22:10).

vinsight4u said in post 14:

This mystery is shown by Rev. 10 to end with the 7th trumpet sounded.

Rev. 10:7's "mystery" is currently known by the church, just as the "mystery" in Rom. 16:25-26 and Col. 1:26 is currently known by the church, for it has already been "declared to his servants the prophets" (Rev. 10:7), already "made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets" (Rom. 16:26).

Rev. 10:7's "finished" in the original Greek is "teleo" (G5055), which can mean "performed" (e.g. Lk. 2:39). Rev. 10:7 means the prophetic writings regarding the tribulation will finish being performed at the 7th trumpet of the tribulation. For out of the 7th trumpet's temple opening will come the final stage of the tribulation, the 7 plagues of the 7 vials of God's wrath (Rev. 11:19, Rev. 15:5-16:1).

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vinsight4u said in post 15:

Rev. 8 and Rev. 15 both show the same smoke times in the temple.

Rev. 8:4 and Rev. 15:8 show two separate times, & two different kinds of smoke. For Rev. 8:4's smoke will an offering of incense by an angel which will occur before any of the 7 trumpets have sounded (Rev. 8:6-7). But Rev. 15:8's smoke is "from the glory of God, and from his power", and will occur right before the 7 plagues of the 7 vials of God's wrath (Rev. 16:1), which won't occur until sometime after the temple in heaven is opened at the 7th trumpet (Rev. 11:19, Rev. 15:5-16:1).

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vinsight4u said in post 19:

This is the only kind of loot available when Gog attacks Israel long after the days of Armageddon. Zechariah, Haggai, and Ezekiel all set this time as - brother against brother type of a battle = a tumult - sword against your neighbor - own brother -. It is after this war ends -this tumult is done with, then comes the time of the 1000 years of His reign on the earth.

If you mean the Gog/Magog attack on Israel (Ezek. chs. 38-39) will occur before the millennium, that's not the case, for it won't occur until after the millennium (Rev. 20:7-10), when there will be no defensive walls or fear of attack in Israel whatsoever (Ezek. 38:11), which is the exact opposite of today's situation, when Israel is filled with very high defensive walls and is in constant fear of attack. At the beginning of the millennium, all present-day weapons of war will be destroyed, and they won't be allowed to be remade during the millennium (Mic. 4:3-4). That's why after the millennium, the Gog/Magog armies will employ only rudimentary, wooden weapons like bows and arrows, spears, shields, and clubs (Ezek. 39:9), which, after the defeat of the Gog/Magog armies, will be able to be used as convenient firewood by the people living in Israel at that time, instead of them having to go out and collect or cut down firewood from the forest (Ezek. 39:10).

The Gog in Rev. 20:8 is the same as in Ezek. chs. 38-39: an individual human leader whose personal name is "Gog" (Ezek. 38:3), who could be born near the end of the millennium, and who will be killed and buried at the end of the Gog/Magog attack (Ezek. 39:11). The Gog/Magog armies are defeated by fire from heaven in both accounts of the attack (Ezek. 38:22, Rev. 20:9). While the great white throne judgment (Rev. 20:11-15) will occur subsequent to the defeat of the Gog/Magog attack (Rev. 20:7-15), nothing requires (as is sometimes claimed) that the great white throne judgment has to happen immediately after the defeat of the attack. For there will be at least seven years (Ezek. 39:9b) between the defeat of the Gog/Magog attack and the great white throne judgment.

Also, the Gog/Magog attack won't (as is sometimes claimed) have to involve only the nations listed in Ezek. chs. 38-39. Those nations could be just a sampling. For the "nations" (ethnos), or peoples, who will be involved in the Gog/Magog attack will come from all over the earth (Rev. 20:8). They will still be physically part of Jesus' worldwide kingdom, still legally under his rule, just as they had been during the preceding millennium (Ps. 72:8-11, 66:3, Ps. 2), but after the millennium they will be deceived by Satan into committing the attack (Rev. 20:7-10).

While the Gog/Magog attack on Israel won't occur until after the future millennium (Rev. 20:7-10, Ezek. chs. 38-39), Israel could suffer a different attack at the start of the future tribulation of Rev. chs. 6-18/Mt. 24, which attack could result in Israel's total defeat and occupation (Dan. 11:15-17).

And Jerusalem could be attacked in the future at least three times before the millennium: once near the start of the future tribulation (Dan. 11:22), then again mid-tribulation (Dan. 11:31), and then at the tribulation's end (Dan. 11:45), right before Jesus' 2nd coming and the start of the millennium (Zech. 14:2-21).