Conscious torment over an infinite period of time?

[BobRyan]

IT is not just the Lamb that is at the brink of that fiery hell in Rev 14 it is also the Angels and the saints - there for the entire thing.

Rev 14:
Then I looked, and behold, the Lamb was standing on Mount Zion, and with Him 144,000 who had His name and the name of His Father written on their foreheads. 2 And I heard a voice from heaven, like the sound of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder, and the voice which I heard was like the sound of harpists playing on their harps. 3 And they *sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders; and no one was able to learn the song except the 144,000 who had been purchased from the earth. 4 These are the ones who have not defiled themselves with women, for they are celibate. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes.

9 Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever




hell is - fiery hell -- in Matt 10 not simply the grave.

1 Tim 6:15 which He will bring about at the proper time—He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16 who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen.

Indeed in the future at the resurrection we "put on" immortality , we take the new body of 1 Cor 15 which is the "second body" of 2 Cor 5:1-5

Luke 12 -- SOME receive many blows and some FEW in the final judgment of the wicked. All a judged according to their deeds and judgment is proportional according to Christ in Luke 12.

Matt 18 says that the wicked pay their debt in full rather than "never able to pay what is owed since they owe infinite debt for finite sin"

Isaiah 34 Judgment on Edom
burning fire and brimstone - burning pitch , not quenched day or night, smoke ascends forever and ever in vs 10
and yet Pelican still to live there vs 11, owl and raven to dwell there
Thorns to grow there vs 13

Is 34:9 Its streams shall be turned into pitch,
And its dust into brimstone;
Its land shall become burning pitch.
10 It shall not be quenched night or day;
Its smoke shall ascend forever.
From generation to generation it shall lie waste;
No one shall pass through it forever and ever.
11 But the pelican and the porcupine shall possess it,
Also the owl and the raven shall dwell in it.

"Forever" means to the end of the age. Forever and ever means to the end of the all the ages. This we are told is the lake of fire, the second death.

And it is used for Edom in Is 34 even though Pelican and owl and Porcupine are there.

 

[BobRyan]

So when we live in the new heavens and earth, when will be the end of the ages according to these veses?

Context determines meaning.

Eternal life is never ending

But that Is 34 destruction of Edom did end and there are no lakes of fire there today

 

[tonychanyt]

Eternal life is never ending

What about eternal punishment?

 

[BobRyan]

What about eternal punishment?

The punishment of the wicked is death "The wages of sin is death" Rom 6:23 not "eternal life" -
No text every says the wicked get eternal life - but in a state of misery.
No text says "everyone has eternal life but some spend it in heaven and others spend it in the lake of fire".

Yet many preachers today will say that very thing.

The "eternal" nature of that death punishment is that no one ever comes out of it.. They will always remains dead. Unlike the first death where all come out of it - both the saved and the lost are resurrected from it.

To "destroy both body and soul" in that eternal fire Matt 10:28 is not the same as "to never be able to fully destroy both body and soul"

Jude 1: 6 And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day, 7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.

2 Peter 2:
6 and if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes, having made them an example to those who would live ungodly lives thereafter; ...

10 Daring, self-willed, they do not tremble when they revile angelic majesties, 11 whereas angels who are greater in might and power do not bring a reviling judgment against them before the Lord. 12 But these, like unreasoning animals, born as creatures of instinct to be captured and killed, reviling where they have no knowledge, will in the destruction of those creatures also be destroyed, 13 suffering wrong as the wages of doing wrong. They count it a pleasure to revel in the daytime.

 

[tonychanyt]

The punishment of the wicked is death "The wages of sin is death" Rom 6:23 not "eternal life" -

How long does eternal punishment last?

 

[BobRyan]

How long does eternal punishment last?

The punishment of the wicked (second death end point) lasts forever - they are never resurrected from the second death.

But the punishING of the wicked is proportional to their knowledge and their deeds. As Luke 12 says some receive MANY lashes (much torment) and others "FEW".

and ALL of it happens "IN the presence" of the Lamb AND of his holy angels and of the saints according to Rev 14.

 

[tonychanyt]

The punishment of the wicked (second death end point) lasts forever - they are never resurrected from the second death.

Is it conscious torment over an infinite period of time?

 

[Diamond72]

Let proposition P1 = Second death means conscious torment over an infinite period of time.
P2 = Second death does not mean conscious torment over an infinite period of time.

Do you think there is nothing good at all worth redemption?
Of course God is going to destory all unGodlyness.
Some people believe that everyone has some good in them.

 

[Diamond72]

there are no lakes of fire there today

The Euphrates volcanic field is located in northeastern Syria near its borders with Iraq and Turkey.
The volcanic field occurs at a tectonically active region and represents the northern segment of the Middle East

 

[BNR32FAN]

On the one hand, Revelation 14:

10 they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb.​

It seems strange that the Lamb should be present to watch them being tormented forever and ever.

11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”​

​

How long will forever last when the last day is finished? How do we measure time after the last day?

Revelation 20:

10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.​

The above are pretty strong passages to support forever torment.

On the other hand, Revelation 21:

8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”​

Does second death imply conscious torment over an infinite period of time?

Concerning the wicked, Isaiah 26:

14 They are now dead, they live no more; their spirits do not rise. You punished them and brought them to ruin; you wiped out all memory of them.​

Matthew 10:

28 "And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell [Gehenna]."​

Only God is immortal. Believers possess immortality because they have the Paraclete. Non-believers do not have the Paraclete. They are not immortal, 1 Corinthians 15:

53 For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality.​

Does hell imply conscious torment over an infinite period of time?

Many Christians today think so. To me, eternal conscious torment isn't a 100% sure thing. It has never been at any time in church history. There have always been some other views such as annihilationism.

Some Christians argue for conscious torment for a finite period of time. In any case, I'm not the judge of people's eternal destination. I know that Jesus died for all my sins and I have eternal life in Christ.

Whatever will happen to the unbelievers, I rest in God that he will do the right thing—whatever that may be.

See also Eternal punishment vs eternal life

To me the evidence is inconclusive so I choose not to establish any doctrines on the subject either way. I don’t think it’s important for us to know whether the punishment is eternal or not, I think the reason these passages are included is to give us an incentive for turning to Christ to avoid this outcome. Either way neither of these two punishments are desirable by anyone.

 

[Diamond72]

How long does eternal punishment last?

It lasts until all unGodlyness is destoyed.

Zechariah 13 8 And in all the land, declares the LORD, two-thirds will be cut off and perish, but a third will be left in it. 9 This third I will bring through the fire; I will refine them like silver and test them like gold. They will call on My name, and I will answer them. I will say, ‘They are My people,’ and they will say, ‘The LORD is our God.’” :9

 

[Fireinfolding]

Context determines meaning.

Eternal life is never ending

But that Is 34 destruction of Edom did end and there are no lakes of fire there today

Wouldn't the things shown us in the temporal (which we can look at) which can also serve as an ensample unto the eternal have (by the nature of them) an ending? Given the things that are seen are temporal by nature.

Since it says,

2 Cr 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen,
but at the things which are not seen:
for the things which are seen are temporal;
but the things which are not seen are eternal.

They are contrasted between them

 

[tonychanyt]

Do you think there is nothing good at all worth redemption?
Of course God is going to destory all unGodlyness.
Some people believe that everyone has some good in them.

Let proposition P1 = Second death means conscious torment over an infinite period of time.
P2 = Second death does not mean conscious torment over an infinite period of time.
Please answer:
Between 0 and 10, how much weight do you put on each of the above propositions?

 

[tonychanyt]

It lasts until all unGodlyness is destoyed.

When will that be? Any idea?

 

[BobRyan]

Is it conscious torment over an infinite period of time?

Not if it is in fact torment then death instead of forever-unpaid-debt. The Bible says "destroy both" body and soul.

No immortal body given at the 2nd resurrection so as to survive forever in fire to experience a debt forever unpaid.

With both body and soul destroyed in fiery hell Matt 10:28 there is finality.
With the wicked "consumed" by the fire that comes down out of heaven in Rev 20 - there is finality.

With the Lamb and the Saints and the Angels all standing their at the brink of that fiery hell - in Rev 14 for the full duration of it - there is most certainly finality to the duration of the "punishing" rather than forever stuck at the brink of hell for the Lamb, the angels and the saints in Rev 14.

With Satan "reduced to ashes" at the end of that fiery hell in Ezek 28 - there is finality.
With the wicked only remaining as "ashes under the souls of your feet" in Mal 4 -- there is most certainly finality

“For behold, the day is coming, burning like a furnace; and all the arrogant and every evildoer will be chaff; and the day that is coming will set them ablaze,” says the Lord of hosts, “so that it will leave them neither root nor branch.” 2 “But for you who fear My name, the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its wings; and you will go forth and skip about like calves from the stall. 3 You will tread down the wicked, for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day which I am preparing,” says the Lord of hosts.

With some experiencing only 'few lashes' -- little torment (as per Luke 12) there can be no 'infinite torment for all'.
In fact there is no such thing in the Bible as infinite torment for finite sin.

 

[BobRyan]

When will that be? Any idea?

IT happens at the end of the 1000 years according to Rev 20.

Some will burn up in a moment of time while others may last many days. Certainly Satan will owe much more than all he has tempted into rebellion.

 

[BobRyan]

So when we live in the new heavens and earth, when will be the end of the ages according to these veses?

Context determines meaning.

Eternal life is never ending

By contrast in Is 34 we know that the destruction of Edom did end and there are no lakes of fire there today - no humans from many centuries ago still in torment there or still burning there...

Wouldn't the things shown us in the temporal (which we can look at) which can also serve as an ensample unto the eternal have (by the nature of them) an ending? Given the things that are seen are temporal by nature.

Since it says,

2 Cr 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen,
but at the things which are not seen:
for the things which are seen are temporal;
but the things which are not seen are eternal.

They are contrasted between them

Jude says they serve as "an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire."

If what they really mean is "this is nothing like the punishment of eternal fire" then the Jude 1 statement is not conveying the right idea.

We all agree that eternal life is really eternal. There is no struggle in the OT or NT to portray eternal life as eternal.

IF the punishing were also to be unending - there was a way to say it.

 

[BobRyan]

The Euphrates volcanic field is located in northeastern Syria near its borders with Iraq and Turkey.
The volcanic field occurs at a tectonically active region and represents the northern segment of the Middle East
View attachment 336261

Edom, ancient land bordering ancient Israel, in what is now southwestern Jordan, between the Dead Sea and the Gulf of Aqaba.

 

[Diamond72]

When will that be? Any idea?

In the lake of fire, after they are resurrected so their body and soul will perish together.

Rev 20 13 The sea gave up its dead, and Death and Hades gave up their dead, and each one was judged according to his deeds. 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death— the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone was found whose name was not written in the Book of Life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

 

[Diamond72]

Second death means conscious torment over an infinite period of time.

I would give infinite torment a two or a three.