Conscious torment over an infinite period of time?

[tonychanyt]

While the lake of fire is called "the second death" twice Rev 20:14, Rev 21:8, no vs. says that anyone/anything is thrown into the LOF then they/it dies. Rev 21:10 says the beast, the devil and the false prophet, who was a person, are thrown into the LOF but they do not die they are tormented for ever and ever.
Also, last book in the Bible, last chapter, no more death, no more salvation

Revelation 22:11​

(11) He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.​

Revelation 22:14-15​

(14) Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.[New Jerusalem]​

(15) For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.​

Sure

Let proposition P1 = Second death means conscious torment over an infinite period of time.
P2 = Second death does not mean conscious torment over an infinite period of time.

Between 0 and 10, how much weight do you put on each of the above propositions?

 

[Der Alte]

Sure

Let proposition P1 = Second death means conscious torment over an infinite period of time.
P2 = Second death does not mean conscious torment over an infinite period of time.
Between 0 and 10, how much weight do you put on each of the above propositions?

Was my post not clear? In Matt 25:46 Jesus said that those on the left go away into "eternal punishment." When Jesus said "aionios" He meant "eternal" when He said "punishment" He did not mean death His audience understood that "death" was permanent.

 

[tonychanyt]

Was my post not clear?

To make it 100% clear:

Let proposition P1 = Second death means conscious torment over an infinite period of time.
P2 = Second death does not mean conscious torment over an infinite period of time.

Between 0 and 10, how much weight do you put on each of the above propositions?

 

[Der Alte]

To make it 100% clear:
Let proposition P1 = Second death means conscious torment over an infinite period of time.
P2 = Second death does not mean conscious torment over an infinite period of time.
Between 0 and 10, how much weight do you put on each of the above propositions?

I'm not into word games. I quoted Jesus, He said "eternal punishment" I understand "eternal" to mean exactly that, never ending.

 

[tonychanyt]

I'm not into word games. I quoted Jesus, He said "eternal punishment" I understand "eternal" to mean exactly that, never ending.

This is not a game. It is to demonstrate the strength of your belief scientifically.

 

[Der Alte]

This is not a game. It is to demonstrate the strength of your belief scientifically.

I've been a Christian since LBJ was president I'll pass, doing just fine in my belief.

 

[tonychanyt]

I've been a Christian since LBJ was president I'll pass, doing just fine in my belief.

I am not talking about your faith in general. In fact, I am not talking about your faith at all. Specifically, I am talking about the strength of your beliefs (apart from faith) on the following propositions:

Let proposition P1 = Second death means conscious torment over an infinite period of time.
P2 = Second death does not mean conscious torment over an infinite period of time.
Between 0 and 10, how much weight do you put on each of the above propositions?

This procedure is scientific. It works on any kind of belief, religious or non-religious. Do you want to find out scientifically how strongly do you believe in P1?

 

[Fervent]

I see two issues here, first whether torment will be infinite and second whether it will be over an unlimited amount of time. Time itself will come to an end, as time is a measure of change and the final state will be a permanent one. Whether the individual is extinguished or persists is another issue, and given the language in Mark 9:48 and Matthew 25:46 it seems unlikely that the individual comes to an end.

 

[Der Alte]

I see two issues here, first whether torment will be infinite and second whether it will be over an unlimited amount of time. Time itself will come to an end, as time is a measure of change and the final state will be a permanent one. Whether the individual is extinguished or persists is another issue, and given the language in Mark 9:48 and Matthew 25:46 it seems unlikely that the individual comes to an end.

Revelation 20:10
(10) And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [a person] are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.​

The last book in the Bible, the last chapter. No more death, no more salvation.

Revelation 22:11
(11) He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
Revelation 22:14-15
(14) Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.[new Jerusalem Rev 21:2]
(15) For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.​

 

[Diamond72]

It seems strange that the Lamb should be present to watch them being tormented forever and ever.

Squeaky hinges get oiled. The problems stick out like a sore thumb so we can resolve the issue.

 

[Diamond72]

I see two issues here, first whether torment will be infinite and second whether it will be over an unlimited amount of time.

The torment is not infinite because the word "infinite" is not used in the Greek. In the Greek this reads to the end of the ages. There is talk about a second death. Even though "death will be no more".

 

[BobRyan]

On the one hand, Revelation 14:

10 they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb.​

It seems strange that the Lamb should be present to watch them being tormented forever and ever.

11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”​

​

IT is not just the Lamb that is at the brink of that fiery hell in Rev 14 it is also the Angels and the saints - there for the entire thing.

Rev 14:
Then I looked, and behold, the Lamb was standing on Mount Zion, and with Him 144,000 who had His name and the name of His Father written on their foreheads. 2 And I heard a voice from heaven, like the sound of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder, and the voice which I heard was like the sound of harpists playing on their harps. 3 And they *sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders; and no one was able to learn the song except the 144,000 who had been purchased from the earth. 4 These are the ones who have not defiled themselves with women, for they are celibate. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes.

9 Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever

Concerning the wicked, Isaiah 26:

14 They are now dead, they live no more; their spirits do not rise. You punished them and brought them to ruin; you wiped out all memory of them.​

Matthew 10:

28 "And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell [Gehenna]."​

hell is - fiery hell -- in Matt 10 not simply the grave.

Only God is immortal.

1 Tim 6:15 which He will bring about at the proper time—He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16 who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen.

Believers possess immortality because they have the Paraclete. Non-believers do not have the Paraclete. They are not immortal, 1 Corinthians 15:

53 For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality.​

Indeed in the future at the resurrection we "put on" immortality , we take the new body of 1 Cor 15 which is the "second body" of 2 Cor 5:1-5

Does hell imply conscious torment over an infinite period of time?

Many Christians today think so. To me, eternal conscious torment isn't a 100% sure thing.

Luke 12 -- SOME receive many blows and some FEW in the final judgment of the wicked. All a judged according to their deeds and judgment is proportional according to Christ in Luke 12.

Matt 18 says that the wicked pay their debt in full rather than "never able to pay what is owed since they owe infinite debt for finite sin"

Isaiah 34 Judgment on Edom
burning fire and brimstone - burning pitch , not quenched day or night, smoke ascends forever and ever in vs 10
and yet Pelican still to live there vs 11, owl and raven to dwell there
Thorns to grow there vs 13


8 For it is the day of the Lord’s vengeance,
The year of recompense for the cause of Zion.
9 Its streams shall be turned into pitch,
And its dust into brimstone;
Its land shall become burning pitch.
10 It shall not be quenched night or day;
Its smoke shall ascend forever.
From generation to generation it shall lie waste;
No one shall pass through it forever and ever.
11 But the pelican and the porcupine shall possess it,
Also the owl and the raven shall dwell in it.
And He shall stretch out over it
The line of confusion and the stones of emptiness.
12 They shall call its nobles to the kingdom,
But none shall be there, and all its princes shall be nothing.

13 And thorns shall come up in its palaces,
Nettles and brambles in its fortresses;
It shall be a habitation of jackals,
A courtyard for ostriches.
14 The wild beasts of the desert shall also meet with the jackals,
And the wild goat shall bleat to its companion;
Also the night creature shall rest there,
And find for herself a place of rest.
15 There the arrow snake shall make her nest and lay eggs
And hatch, and gather them under her shadow;
There also shall the hawks be gathered,
Every one with her mate.

 

[Diamond72]

It seems strange that the Lamb should be present to watch them being tormented forever and ever."

"Forever" means to the end of the age. Forever and ever means to the end of the all the ages. This we are told is the lake of fire, the second death.

 

[Diamond72]

When we live in the new heavens and earth, when will be the end of the ages?

1. The New Heaven: The "new heaven" is often interpreted as a renewed and perfect dwelling place for God and the redeemed. It is a symbol of the divine presence and a state of eternal harmony and holiness.
2. The New Earth: The "new earth" is understood as a transformed and perfected physical world where the redeemed will dwell. It represents a state of complete restoration, free from sin, suffering, and corruption.
3. The Holy City, New Jerusalem: In Revelation, John describes the descent of the "New Jerusalem" from heaven to the new earth. This city is depicted as a place of great beauty and glory, where God dwells with His people.

The new Jerusalem is 1500 by 1500 by 1500 miles. That is the entire arab plate, with air space and mineral rights. We are told that the Mediterian sea will be drained. This could be from the earth quake that will take place. Or man has the ability to drain the sea. All of this was given to Abraham and his descendants. We were adopted into the family of Abraham. I figure I will be given a condo or some place to stay when I go to visit.

The water that the Mediterranean Sea needs mainly comes from the Atlantic Ocean, through the Strait of Gibraltar. So, if we can cut off that flow we can, in theory, drain the Sea over time.

 

[tonychanyt]

The water that the Mediterranean Sea needs mainly comes from the Atlantic Ocean, through the Strait of Gibraltar. So, if we can cut off that flow we can, in theory, drain the Sea over time.

So, when we live in the new heavens and earth, when will be the end of the ages?

 

[tonychanyt]

Forever and ever means to the end of the all the ages.

reference?

 

[Diamond72]

reference?

I use Strongs, even before we had computers to study the original language. I like to use Bible Hub for all the different translations.
aión: a space of time, an age
Original Word: αἰών, ῶνος, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: aión
Phonetic Spelling: (ahee-ohn')
Definition: a space of time, an age
Usage: an age, a cycle (of time), especially of the present age as contrasted with the future age, and of one of a series of ages stretching to infinity.

aión: a space of time, an age
Original Word: αἰών, ῶνος, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: aión
Phonetic Spelling: (ahee-ohn')
Definition: a space of time, an age
Usage: an age, a cycle (of time), especially of the present age as contrasted with the future age, and of one of a series of ages stretching to infinity.

 

[Diamond72]

when we live in the new heavens and earth, when will be the end of the ages?

Many scriptures talk about the end of the ages. Of course every age ends and a new one begins. So it is not clear if we are talking about the end of all ages. We are told there will be no more death.

The phrase "end of the ages" or similar terms are found in several verses in the New Testament of the Bible. It typically refers to the culmination of human history and the final fulfillment of God's plan for creation. Here are a few examples of verses where variations of this phrase appear:

1. Matthew 13:39 (ESV): "...and the enemy who sowed them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are angels."
2. Matthew 13:40 (ESV): "Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the end of the age."
3. Matthew 24:3 (ESV): "As he sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, 'Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?'"
4. Hebrews 9:26 (ESV): "for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself."
5. 1 Corinthians 10:11 (ESV): "Now these things happened to them as an example, but they were written down for our instruction, on whom the end of the ages has come."

 

[tonychanyt]

I use Strongs, even before we had computers to study the original language. I like to use Bible Hub for all the different translations.
aión: a space of time, an age
Original Word: αἰών, ῶνος, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: aión
Phonetic Spelling: (ahee-ohn')
Definition: a space of time, an age
Usage: an age, a cycle (of time), especially of the present age as contrasted with the future age, and of one of a series of ages stretching to infinity.

aión: a space of time, an age
Original Word: αἰών, ῶνος, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: aión
Phonetic Spelling: (ahee-ohn')
Definition: a space of time, an age
Usage: an age, a cycle (of time), especially of the present age as contrasted with the future age, and of one of a series of ages stretching to infinity.

The above does not say the end of the all the ages.

 

[tonychanyt]

Many scriptures talk about the end of the ages. Of course every age ends and a new one begins. So it is not clear if we are talking about the end of all ages. We are told there will be no more death.

The phrase "end of the ages" or similar terms are found in several verses in the New Testament of the Bible. It typically refers to the culmination of human history and the final fulfillment of God's plan for creation. Here are a few examples of verses where variations of this phrase appear:

1. Matthew 13:39 (ESV): "...and the enemy who sowed them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are angels."
2. Matthew 13:40 (ESV): "Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the end of the age."
3. Matthew 24:3 (ESV): "As he sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, 'Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?'"
4. Hebrews 9:26 (ESV): "for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself."
5. 1 Corinthians 10:11 (ESV): "Now these things happened to them as an example, but they were written down for our instruction, on whom the end of the ages has come."

So when we live in the new heavens and earth, when will be the end of the ages according to these veses?