Confused about Hell

jannerd

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Hi
I've been a Christian for a couple of years now, and I love watching lectures online. But I've hit something of a snag.

I watched a very good lecture from Edward Fudge, who points out that the Bible clearly teaches annihilation.

Then I watched a most enjoyable lecture on Hell by NT Wright, who makes it very clear that the Bible obviously teaches a sort of eternal conscious torment.

After that, I listened to a rather fine speech from David Bentley-Hart, who goes into great lengths about the Bible's clear and obvious teachings on universalism.

I'm not asking which of those is correct. But I do worry about it. Three very top-notch Bible scholars, three completely different views. Why doesn't the Bible make it more obvious which view is correct? I lean towards universalism (simply because God desires that all shall be saved, so if there's even one unsaved person in Hell at the end of time then God's will has not been done, therefore God is not all powerful), but I'd hate to be wrong about that. I'd hate to go through life saying "don't worry bro, you're saved whether happens", if that's not the case.

Where do I even start with this?
 

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Hi
I've been a Christian for a couple of years now, and I love watching lectures online. But I've hit something of a snag.

I watched a very good lecture from Edward Fudge, who points out that the Bible clearly teaches annihilation.

Then I watched a most enjoyable lecture on Hell by NT Wright, who makes it very clear that the Bible obviously teaches a sort of eternal conscious torment.

After that, I listened to a rather fine speech from David Bentley-Hart, who goes into great lengths about the Bible's clear and obvious teachings on universalism.

I'm not asking which of those is correct. But I do worry about it. Three very top-notch Bible scholars, three completely different views. Why doesn't the Bible make it more obvious which view is correct? I lean towards universalism (simply because God desires that all shall be saved, so if there's even one unsaved person in Hell at the end of time then God's will has not been done, therefore God is not all powerful), but I'd hate to be wrong about that. I'd hate to go through life saying "don't worry bro, you're saved whether happens", if that's not the case.

Where do I even start with this?
I console myself with the assurance of a glimpse of Christ in them.
 
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hedrick

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Hi
I watched a very good lecture from Edward Fudge, who points out that the Bible clearly teaches annihilation.

Then I watched a most enjoyable lecture on Hell by NT Wright, who makes it very clear that the Bible obviously teaches a sort of eternal conscious torment.
I think Wright has tried to avoid being very specific. I agree with that, because there are lots of things in the NT about judgement, but it's hard to get a really specific picture.

The clearest statement I know of from Wright actually implies a kind of annihilation. Rethinking the Tradition

CF considers anything other than everlasting torment heretical, and restricts discussion to Controversial Christian Theology (it's part of General Theology, so it's not listed on the main page). You'll find lots of threads there, though they tend to get long, and sometime acrimonious. I'm guessing there will be lots of replies here, but I'm going to avoid it, since I agree with you, but it's a violation of the rules to advocate it here. I'll post a response in Controversial ...
 
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RaymondG

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What does the Lord say about it. He said that if any man lack wisdom let him ask of God who will give it freely.

Therefore there is no more reason to be dismayed after hearing varying opinions of man.....

Seek and you shall find.....then you can tell us from experience and not from interpretations of words alone....
 
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Jeshu

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Hi
I've been a Christian for a couple of years now, and I love watching lectures online. But I've hit something of a snag.

I watched a very good lecture from Edward Fudge, who points out that the Bible clearly teaches annihilation.

Then I watched a most enjoyable lecture on Hell by NT Wright, who makes it very clear that the Bible obviously teaches a sort of eternal conscious torment.

After that, I listened to a rather fine speech from David Bentley-Hart, who goes into great lengths about the Bible's clear and obvious teachings on universalism.

I'm not asking which of those is correct. But I do worry about it. Three very top-notch Bible scholars, three completely different views. Why doesn't the Bible make it more obvious which view is correct? I lean towards universalism (simply because God desires that all shall be saved, so if there's even one unsaved person in Hell at the end of time then God's will has not been done, therefore God is not all powerful), but I'd hate to be wrong about that. I'd hate to go through life saying "don't worry bro, you're saved whether happens", if that's not the case.

Where do I even start with this?

i have been struggling here as well and i asked God about it and He answered me i wrote an article about it the answer i found.

Peace.

FaithWriters.com-Christian Apologetics - Humanities Salvation
 
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Mark Quayle

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Hi
I've been a Christian for a couple of years now, and I love watching lectures online. But I've hit something of a snag.

I watched a very good lecture from Edward Fudge, who points out that the Bible clearly teaches annihilation.

Then I watched a most enjoyable lecture on Hell by NT Wright, who makes it very clear that the Bible obviously teaches a sort of eternal conscious torment.

After that, I listened to a rather fine speech from David Bentley-Hart, who goes into great lengths about the Bible's clear and obvious teachings on universalism.

I'm not asking which of those is correct. But I do worry about it. Three very top-notch Bible scholars, three completely different views. Why doesn't the Bible make it more obvious which view is correct? I lean towards universalism (simply because God desires that all shall be saved, so if there's even one unsaved person in Hell at the end of time then God's will has not been done, therefore God is not all powerful), but I'd hate to be wrong about that. I'd hate to go through life saying "don't worry bro, you're saved whether happens", if that's not the case.

Where do I even start with this?
I believe that those who end up in the Lake of Fire will hardly resemble the human being we knew on earth. All virtue will be stripped of them, they will possess nothing to commend themselves to you if you could see them there. They are there what they would be here apart from God's goodness, and whether you can accept it or not, all goodness comes from God. They are wraiths, devoid of any redeeming qualities, entirely wrapped up in themselves, full of regret, despair and anger.

Therefore, all three have a semblance of the truth. The annihilationist is correct in that the human we know as Jim, (let's say), is not the being who undergoes torments. The universalist is correct in that --oh, sorry, I can't find anything right about his view except that God is precisely and thoroughly just. Nobody will suffer in the Lake of Fire that doesn't deserve it, and everyone there will suffer commensurate with their offense. If the universalist's view is that the Judge of All The Earth will do what is right, then I agree with him about that too.

I have this to say about the universalists --every one of them that I have talked to fall short on their notion of sin. They do not understand the LOVE OF GOD in providing for it when it alone is the very thing that would undo the very fabric of truth were it not for the power of God. The universe, and all truths subject to it, would fall apart. If anything was hard for God, it was this. But he did it for his own glory --for us. It is the only thing that can hurt him, and it has, his Son taking that payment for our sin upon himself. Those of us who consider ourselves wronged by the trespass against us should understand --we have no pain compared to the agony God has sustained. Nothing else is a denial of his glorious being, but sin. Yet, without it, (that is to say, without sin having had its place in God's plan), we could not have become the children of God whose very essence in heaven is the opposite of those in the Lake of Fire. We will be "full of God", and possessed of nothing but virtue.
 
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Greengardener

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Whew, you've picked up a heavy topic, Friend. As long as there are people, there will be varying opinions on what the Scriptures teach. And as long as they have a group of like-minded supporters, they will think it's the right understanding. People have been arguing Scriptural concepts for thousands of years. Naturally people are curious about what might happen in the future, and even the disciples asked about the End. I've heard lots of arguments and read several statements on creeds. I have my own personal conclusions from deep thought and research, but I have to admit God may be planning something very different than my thoughts. The more important thing is to have His words hidden deep in your heart so that you recognize what is happening as it happens, and that you use those words to be prepared to live so as to avoid the dangerous paths, even annihilation if it exists.

We are warned in the Scriptures that the end of foolishness is destruction, that the end of sin is death, and that the end of falling away is a certain fearfulness of judgement. Yet, for the righteous, the end is life and peace. The bigger question is what would you use the information for if you were to obtain a concrete unshakable answer? If you knew you could do anything you wanted and be saved, what would you do? If you knew there was annihilation for the disobedient, what would you do? Not to belittle your question at all, Friend Jannerd, but in all sincerity, what will you gain if you pin this one down?

As to why it's written this way? Here's my best guess. Remember what Jesus told us about the parables when his disciples asked Him why He spoke that way? It's so that seeing they would not see. He had them figured out that they only wanted to have word battles about who had the better "theology" while they were using God's words to burden other people. What did Jesus teach? That the kingdom was here among us and it's good news. What did His disciples teach? Repent and believe this good news. What happened when people believed? They lived according to the Laws of God, and this time, those Laws are written on our hearts. In other words, they lived in God's rule, according to God's leadership, in harmony with the way God knew would work best for us.

I'm glad for your question, Friend. It brought up a lot of thoughts. I hope some of my thoughts can be helpful. I look at is as I had boxes in my brain. I keep some of them filled with solid stuff, like "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and strength," "seek first the kingdom of God," "love your neighbor has yourself," "forgive us as we forgive others," and "Jesus said to them, 'You've heard it said...But I tell you..." And I can and should stay busy putting those things into my life in reality. But I keep one extra box in my brain for the "I don't know for sure, but what I do see and understand tells me I need to...love the Lord my God with all my heart, seek first His kingdom, love my neighbor as myself, and behave in the way Jesus showed us as He fleshed out the workings of God's law right in the sight of men." When I read to the back of the book, I see that God is looking for overcomers who are willing to DO His will even above loving their own lives. That rather shakes loose the chaff and it challenges me to keep asking, keep seeking, keep knocking, keep doing the right choices. Again, thanks for posting.
 
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St_Worm2

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I lean towards universalism (simply because God desires that all shall be saved, so if there's even one unsaved person in Hell at the end of time then God's will has not been done, therefore God is not all powerful), but I'd hate to be wrong about that.
Hi Jannerd, I see that you are new around here, so first off, WELCOME TO CF :wave: (and thanks for joining in the discussions too :)).

I have a question for you. Since it's God's will that we don't sin, does that mean that His will can be thwarted by us, and that He's not omnipotent (since we know that everyone sins)?

Thanks!

God bless you!

--David
p.s. - you may find this article about the 3 different wills of God useful: Discerning God’s Will: The Three Wills of God | Monergism

1 Thessalonians 5
23 May the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body
be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
24 Faithful is He who calls you, and He also will bring it to pass.

.
 
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Mark Quayle

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Hi
I've been a Christian for a couple of years now, and I love watching lectures online. But I've hit something of a snag.

I watched a very good lecture from Edward Fudge, who points out that the Bible clearly teaches annihilation.

Then I watched a most enjoyable lecture on Hell by NT Wright, who makes it very clear that the Bible obviously teaches a sort of eternal conscious torment.

After that, I listened to a rather fine speech from David Bentley-Hart, who goes into great lengths about the Bible's clear and obvious teachings on universalism.

I'm not asking which of those is correct. But I do worry about it. Three very top-notch Bible scholars, three completely different views. Why doesn't the Bible make it more obvious which view is correct? I lean towards universalism (simply because God desires that all shall be saved, so if there's even one unsaved person in Hell at the end of time then God's will has not been done, therefore God is not all powerful), but I'd hate to be wrong about that. I'd hate to go through life saying "don't worry bro, you're saved whether happens", if that's not the case.

Where do I even start with this?

I have yet to hear James White on anything where he was not excellent. And though I haven't listened to this whole thing, he is great here too.

Universalism Considered
 
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Why doesn't the Bible make it more obvious which view is correct?
Because the Bible is only the textbook. It was never meant to stand alone. You need to sit at the feet of the Teacher!

Jesus said,
If you love Me, keep My commandments. And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you." John 14:15-18 NKJV

"But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you." John 14:26 NKJV
Three very top-notch Bible scholars, three completely different views.
Read the single-chapter Book of Jude on this matter.
 
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ajcarey

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Start with the confidence that God is a wise, loving God and does give answers in His Word about such an infinitely important topic; and also know that the Bible does indeed give a very obvious answer to this question. "16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works." (2 Timothy 3:16-17)

And also consider who labelled these 3 men great scholars? It sure wasn't God who did. Many "great scholars" of Jesus' day hated Him. "Great scholars" have always opposed God's servants and the truths of God's Word. Being well learned in Scripture means much- if you are truly well-learned AND faithful to the Truth you've learned. But what if you are lied to and hold onto the lie and disseminate the lie? Many others who love the same lie will call you great if you can promote and defend the lie well. But why should that label have any validity?

The Bible then teaches over and over and over and over against Universalism. You'd literally have to be calling the Prophets, Christ, and the Apostles misguided fools to believe in Universalism after being informed from Scripture. Just a few examples:

Daniel 12:2 "And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt."

Galatians 5:19-21 "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God."

Ephesians 5:5 "For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God."

And the Bible also teaches contrary to annihilation over and over. Conscious, eternal torment for the wicked is indeed Biblical and the following statements of Scripture (among many others) would be meaningless and vain and lying if the wicked weren't consciously tormented eternally in the fire of hell.

Mark 9:43-48 "And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched."

Romans 2:4-11 (note especially verses 8 and 9): "4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? 5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; 6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: 8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, 9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; 10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: 11 For there is no respect of persons with God."

Revelation 14:9-11: "And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name."

To put things together, look then at the warnings on the gates of heaven as the Bible closes. Look how God, as He closes His revelation to mankind, emphasizes that there is eternal, conscious torment in hell which only the faithful who renounce and abhor all sin, and who obey and follow Christ faithfully to the end as wholehearted servants of the true God will escape to instead be with Him in heaven. God is emphasizing and warning that Judgment Day and everlasting hell-fire are indeed real; and lovingly pleading with us to obey His Word and turn from sin without any compromise lest we end up in that place of torment where there is no repentance offered nor remedy available after our opportunity here to be right with Him expires. Don't refuse nor explain away His warnings and instruction- otherwise you won't act on them properly!

Revelation 21:6-8 "And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. But the fearful (i.e. cowardly), and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

Revelation 21:27 "And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life."

Revelation 22:12-16: "And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star."
 
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PizzaAddict

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Hi
I've been a Christian for a couple of years now, and I love watching lectures online. But I've hit something of a snag.

I watched a very good lecture from Edward Fudge, who points out that the Bible clearly teaches annihilation.

Then I watched a most enjoyable lecture on Hell by NT Wright, who makes it very clear that the Bible obviously teaches a sort of eternal conscious torment.

After that, I listened to a rather fine speech from David Bentley-Hart, who goes into great lengths about the Bible's clear and obvious teachings on universalism.

I'm not asking which of those is correct. But I do worry about it. Three very top-notch Bible scholars, three completely different views. Why doesn't the Bible make it more obvious which view is correct? I lean towards universalism (simply because God desires that all shall be saved, so if there's even one unsaved person in Hell at the end of time then God's will has not been done, therefore God is not all powerful), but I'd hate to be wrong about that. I'd hate to go through life saying "don't worry bro, you're saved whether happens", if that's not the case.

Where do I even start with this?

You start by not reading what people say about the Bible but reading it yourself cover to cover , also putting away any science or science-fiction aside and trying to justify what the book says by your imagination , rather praying for the Spirit of God to teach you and then starting to read.

It does not matter if you enjoy it or not , or if something is nice to see or not .
All you can do is either accept what the book says or reject it.
Don't be lukewarm .


To answer question no Bible doesn't teach either it teaches eternal punishment which lasts forever.
 
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Hi
I've been a Christian for a couple of years now, and I love watching lectures online. But I've hit something of a snag.

I watched a very good lecture from Edward Fudge, who points out that the Bible clearly teaches annihilation.

Then I watched a most enjoyable lecture on Hell by NT Wright, who makes it very clear that the Bible obviously teaches a sort of eternal conscious torment.

After that, I listened to a rather fine speech from David Bentley-Hart, who goes into great lengths about the Bible's clear and obvious teachings on universalism.

I'm not asking which of those is correct. But I do worry about it. Three very top-notch Bible scholars, three completely different views. Why doesn't the Bible make it more obvious which view is correct? I lean towards universalism (simply because God desires that all shall be saved, so if there's even one unsaved person in Hell at the end of time then God's will has not been done, therefore God is not all powerful), but I'd hate to be wrong about that. I'd hate to go through life saying "don't worry bro, you're saved whether happens", if that's not the case.

Where do I even start with this?
Erasing Hell by Francis Chan and Preston Sprinkle I think would be helpful for you to read. They not only get into the passages about Hell, but the context. It's also written in a way as to move the reader to compassion for the lost.
 
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