Conflict between religion and science

[Jeremy E Walker]

You don't seem to understand that there are people who sincerely do not believe in your theological claims.



No, I still wouldn't find your theological claims believable. If you think that it is simply a matter of fashioning God's image after one's own, don't you think that we'd already be theists who had done just that?



No, I would dismiss that as ridiculous.



This seems highly presumptuous. How do you know that? Many atheists started their journey as Christians.

Strange how I wrote what I did to Davian, and you responded....

You know what they say.... a hit dog will holler!

 

[Jeremy E Walker]

Is Christ's life not also the subject of significant theological disagreement?

Not that I know of and if it was so what?

Seems to me you are looking for reasons not to imitate the life of the Blessed One....

 

[Davian]

Strange how I wrote what I did to Davian, and you responded....

You know what they say.... a hit dog will holler!

Is this not an open forum?

 

[Jeremy E Walker]

Again you are mistaken. You should realize that presupposing what other people think is a recipe for failure. You have no idea of the journey that I have made, the epiphanies that I have had, the things I have learned.

It is the failure of theists such as yourself to show that their god/s are more than characters in books that leads me to conclude that is all they are.

Let God be true and every man a liar.

I am not presupposing anything, despite your desire that I be found to be presumptuous.

And as far as demonstrating the claims I make, the evidence is there for anyone willing to receive it. But "to give truth to him who loves it not is only to give him more plentiful reasons for misinterpretation.” The love of truth and the willingness to submit to its demands is the first step.

If you love the truth and desire it above all else, you will have it. You will have it at the expense of your pride, your arrogance, your self-righteousness, and your ego.

For some, they cannot bear to part with those things they love so dearly and so by their own choice, show where there heart truly is.

 

[Jeremy E Walker]

Is this not an open forum?

Sure is.

I must have struck a nerve, which was my point.

Not that he broke some forum decorum in responding.

Do settle down a bit.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Strange how I wrote what I did to Davian, and you responded....

You know what they say.... a hit dog will holler!

I responded to make a simple point that you seem to have difficulty comprehending: people are sincerely unconvinced of your theological claims.

Not that I know of and if it was so what?

If it is, then your test is next to useless. Whether a test result is positive or negative will simply depend on one's prior theological commitments.

Sure is.

I must have struck a nerve, which was my point.

Not that he broke some forum decorum in responding.

Do settle down a bit.

You are being awfully presumptuous today. Sorry to disappoint you, but you haven't struck a nerve in anyone. Your constant presumptuousness, however, is mildly irritating.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Let God be true and every man a liar.

I am not presupposing anything, despite your desire that I be found to be presumptuous.

And as far as demonstrating the claims I make, the evidence is there for anyone willing to receive it. But "to give truth to him who loves it not is only to give him more plentiful reasons for misinterpretation.” The love of truth and the willingness to submit to its demands is the first step.

If you love the truth and desire it above all else, you will have it. You will have it at the expense of your pride, your arrogance, your self-righteousness, and your ego.

For some, they cannot bear to part with those things they love so dearly and so by their own choice, show where there heart truly is.

You see, a Muslim apologist could say exactly the same thing to you, implying that you do not accept the doctrines of Islam simply because of your pride, your arrogance, your self-righteousness, and ego. He could say that you cannot bear to part with those things and so, by your own choice, you remain an infidel. If you find such presumptuousness rude coming from a Muslim apologist, imagine how we view your comments here?

 

[Davian]

Let God be true and every man a liar.

I am not presupposing anything, despite your desire that I be found to be presumptuous.

No, I was referring to your use of presuppositional apologetics.

"Presuppositionalism is a school of Christian apologetics that believes the Christian faith is the only basis for rational thought. It presupposes that the Bible is divine revelation and attempts to expose flaws in other worldviews. It claims that apart from presuppositions, one could not make sense of any human experience, and there can be no set of neutral assumptions from which to reason with a non-Christian"

Presuppositional apologetics - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And as far as demonstrating the claims I make, the evidence is there for anyone willing to receive it.

Talking about gods as if they are real is not evidence.

But "to give truth to him who loves it not is only to give him more plentiful reasons for misinterpretation.” The love of truth and the willingness to submit to its demands is the first step.

By "truth" in this context, you mean "religion".

If you love the truth and desire it above all else, you will have it.

Reality conforms to your wishes? Are you trying to sell me on the "The Secret"?

You will have it at the expense of your pride, your arrogance, your self-righteousness, and your ego.

Apparently you have no idea of how wrong you are about me on these points. Please stop projecting yourself on to me.

For some, they cannot bear to part with those things they love so dearly and so by their own choice, show where there heart truly is.

Find the guy that sold you that mind-reading trick, and demand your money back.

 

[bhsmte]

You have an issue with God saying you are a sinner and are in need of a saviour. You have an issue with being accountable to God.

If we were talking about something that was pleasing to you or something you agreed with or something that reinforced the way you have decided to live your life, you would happily agree with me. You would be all to happy to hear me out.

The world hated Jesus. He said that the world hated Him because He testified that its deeds were evil.

If I were telling you that God sanctions and approves of your lifestyle, the things you do, the way you live, the views you hold about yourself, and that he accepts all the "nice" things you do and that He will overlook the bad you have done because He knows you just couldn't help yourself, then you would be all ears.

If I came proclaiming that you are your own god with none to account to except yourself then you would be all ears.

The "evidence" that you have followed led you right to where you started and where you determined you would end before you ever began your journey.

Jeremy,

You are the one who is assuming what is most comfortable to you, when you pretend to know why certain people do not believe in your God.

If you want to know, just ask.

 

[bhsmte]

Not that I know of and if it was so what?

Seems to me you are looking for reasons not to imitate the life of the Blessed One....

Seems to me, you have a strong psychological need to pretend to know how people who disagree with you think.

 

[bhsmte]

Let God be true and every man a liar.

I am not presupposing anything, despite your desire that I be found to be presumptuous.

And as far as demonstrating the claims I make, the evidence is there for anyone willing to receive it. But "to give truth to him who loves it not is only to give him more plentiful reasons for misinterpretation.” The love of truth and the willingness to submit to its demands is the first step.

If you love the truth and desire it above all else, you will have it. You will have it at the expense of your pride, your arrogance, your self-righteousness, and your ego.

For some, they cannot bear to part with those things they love so dearly and so by their own choice, show where there heart truly is.

You are preaching and for some, preaching is not compelling because anyone can preach.

 

[bhsmte]

No, I was referring to your use of presuppositional apologetics.

"Presuppositionalism is a school of Christian apologetics that believes the Christian faith is the only basis for rational thought. It presupposes that the Bible is divine revelation and attempts to expose flaws in other worldviews. It claims that apart from presuppositions, one could not make sense of any human experience, and there can be no set of neutral assumptions from which to reason with a non-Christian"

Presuppositional apologetics - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Talking about gods as if they are real is not evidence.

By "truth" in this context, you mean "religion".

Reality conforms to your wishes? Are you trying to sell me on the "The Secret"?

Apparently you have no idea of how wrong you are about me on these points. Please stop projecting yourself on to me.

Find the guy that sold you that mind-reading trick, and demand your money back.

BINGO!

 

[Martin Moe]

Doesn't it all really just come down to faith?


Evolution and creationism, good god what a mess. Those that are of the opinion that life is a product of the elements of matter. and under favorable environmental conditions, life can develop and evolve are rapidly finding answers based in science. Those that are of the opinion that life was created in its entire complexity, usually in 6 Earth days, by supernatural triumph have no such struggle. They have only to find the appropriate answer in ancient scriptures written long before we knew anything about the basic chemistry and biology of life. Both are based in “faith”, but different kinds of faith. For example, one can have faith that in a few minutes a bus will come to a certain bus stop as it has every day over past years. That is faith with a basis in reality. It is not a sure thing until the bus is there, but it is a reasonable faith. Or one can have faith that a supernatural force will create a bus and bring it to stop where a bus has never stopped before. After all, if a supernatural being can quickly create many billions of living organisms representing millions of species, including each with individual genetic, instinctive, and behavioral characteristics, all interacting within a functional world wide ecological balance, then creating a bus with revolving wheels and gears and an internal combustion engine shouldn't be a problem. That, however, is a faith without basis in reality and a faith that will never come to being, no matter how long the wait.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Doesn't it all really just come down to faith?


Evolution and creationism, good god what a mess. Those that are of the opinion that life is a product of the elements of matter. and under favorable environmental conditions, life can develop and evolve are rapidly finding answers based in science. Those that are of the opinion that life was created in its entire complexity, usually in 6 Earth days, by supernatural triumph have no such struggle. They have only to find the appropriate answer in ancient scriptures written long before we knew anything about the basic chemistry and biology of life. Both are based in “faith”, but different kinds of faith. For example, one can have faith that in a few minutes a bus will come to a certain bus stop as it has every day over past years. That is faith with a basis in reality. It is not a sure thing until the bus is there, but it is a reasonable faith.

If you have good reason to believe it, then why would faith be necessary?

 

[Martin Moe]

Exactly! The difference between faith and belief is very fuzzy. In my mind they are almost synonymous. To me faith seems to have less strength in reality than does belief. If you believe that something is true and solid then your faith in its existence is strong. If you do not believe that that something has any reality, then you have no faith that it exists. And if it does not exist in the real world, whether you believe it or not, then faith in its actual existence is a false faith. But if you know that it exists, then your faith in how it will affect your future depends on your past experience with it and your knowledge of the characteristics of its behavior. Most everyone has faith that a huge bolder will stay where it is, under ordinary circumstances. It would take extra ordinary circumstances to move it, such as a geological event or a great human determination to move it with human produced strength. So if you believe that a boulder was moved from the entrance to a tomb by supernatural means, then your faith has no basis in reality. But if the faith you work with in your every day existence has no supernatural basis, then that boulder was either moved by physical means or it is just an imaginary tale. We live with faith every day and it is either based in reality or it is not. Evidently what is real to some people, is not real to others. Why is that?

 

[WindStaff]

Many atheists started their journey as Christians.

And the majority of them end their journey with atheism because they cannot fathom the moral complex of Christianity.
Most all of the philosophers who turned from Christianity did so because instead of understanding it all, they just labored under self-righteous rationalizing which ultimately leads to a baseless reality with moral relativity. How superior and logical- a construct built on sand.

But also just importantly to note, science and such doesn't actually lead one from religion, which is what atheists tend to imply nonetheless when they revolt in their scientific ~shenanigans~.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

And the majority of them end their journey with atheism because they cannot fathom the moral complex of Christianity.

How do you know that?

But also just importantly to note, science and such doesn't actually lead one from religion, which is what atheists tend to imply nonetheless when they revolt in their scientific ~shenanigans~.

It doesn't necessarily lead one away from religion, but it can in various ways contribute to that.

 

[WindStaff]

How do you know that?

Because science avails no alternative and because there is not one Christian-to-atheist philosopher who doesn't ultimately bring up moral justifications.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Because science avails no alternative and because there is not one Christian-to-atheist philosopher who doesn't ultimately bring up moral justifications.

You are going back to the same argument from ignorance you made earlier. Moral issues are usually brought up in the context of Christian apologists claiming that their theology affords them some sort of moral superiority.

 

[WindStaff]

You are going back to the same argument from ignorance you made earlier. Moral issues are usually brought up in the context of Christian apologists claiming that their theology affords them some sort of moral superiority.

The moral paradigm of Christianity is incontrovertible and true. It's actually the exact opposite- atheist ideology on morals comes up very short, patently so even, and so intrinsic in their values that being called a moral relativist isn't even considered an insult even though it very much in reality is.