Confession ...

[~Anastasia~]

And Matt 18 - which talks about several things, and I'm debating how much to consider as being context, and why.
5 “If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother. 16 But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every fact may be confirmed. 17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. 18 Truly I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.

So from a protestant POV.....what is this church Jesus references? Singular and with some sort of authority.

1. Alone
2. 2 or 3 witnesses
3. Church

I believe the church is probably the local body that met together, house to house, etc. however many that would be. It's an escalation in confrontation, so it makes sense to me. It seems the churches at the time may have mostly been small enough to share - when you come together each one has a song, a tongue, etc. And yet large enough maybe that there were those of different status and discrimination could be a problem. Speculation on my part - someone may actually know.

But I do think the church is probably that local body of believers who were acquainted, since they met regularly.

 

[~Anastasia~]

And Matt 18 - which talks about several things, and I'm debating how much to consider as being context, and why.
5 “If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother. 16 But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every fact may be confirmed. 17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. 18 Truly I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.

So from a protestant POV.....what is this church Jesus references? Singular and with some sort of authority.

Hmmm .... I re-read your question. I can guess what you might say? Interesting ...

 

[concretecamper]

Hmmm .... I re-read your question. I can guess what you might say? Interesting ...

So if I sinned against you.... and would not listen to you..... or 2 or 3 others......what authority does your community have over me? So your community banishes me....so what!

This scripture reference is strong example of there being one church...with an authority.

 

[stan1953]

Hmmm .... I re-read your question. I can guess what you might say? Interesting ...

The Greek uses
ἐκκλησία,n \{ek-klay-see'-ah}
1) a gathering of citizens called out from their homes into some public place, an assembly 1a) an assembly of the people convened at the public place of the council for the purpose of deliberating 1b) the assembly of the Israelites 1c) any gathering or throng of men assembled by chance, tumultuously 1d) in a Christian sense 1d1) an assembly of Christians gathered for worship in a religious meeting 1d2) a company of Christian, or of those who, hoping for eternal salvation through Jesus Christ, observe their own religious rites, hold their own religious meetings, and manage their own affairs, according to regulations prescribed for the body for order's sake 1d3) those who anywhere, in a city, village, constitute such a company and are united into one body 1d4) the whole body of Christians scattered throughout the earth 1d5) the assembly of faithful Christians already dead and received into heaven.

The Body of Christ, which IS the Church, is made up of many parts as Paul teaches in 1 Cor 12:12-31

 

[stan1953]

So if I sinned against you.... and would not listen to you..... or 2 or 3 others......what authority does your community have over me? So your community banishes me....so what!

This scripture reference is strong example of there being one church...with an authority.

It means you would be kicked out of the local body and in some denoms, black listed against attending other churches of that denom.
In some communities there are groups of clergy that also practise informing ALL churches of so-called 'bad' people. Where there's a will, there's a way, on either side.

 

[~Anastasia~]

So if I sinned against you.... and would not listen to you..... or 2 or 3 others......what authority does your community have over me? So your community banishes me....so what!

This scripture reference is strong example of there being one church...with an authority.

Yes, after I re-read your question and thought about it, I expected your answer would involve the church in a different way, though I didn't anticipate your exact response.

I'm not trying to prove a point, one way or another, but just explore it a bit. We are looking at ancient times, so if the church (local body) would not receive you, would not allow you in worship, would not eat with you, and you were cut off from the Lord's Supper ... In ancient days, you would have to suffer that loss as "punishment" wouldn't you? Unless you moved to another community and hoped your reputation didn't precede you. (Which it may, since I see people mentioned in the letters.)

Would that not serve as authority?

I was thinking in terms of Scripture, btw, not answering for any particular church today.

 

[concretecamper]

Scripture is also for today....not just back then.

 

[concretecamper]

. In ancient days, you would have to suffer that loss as "punishment" wouldn't you? Unless you moved to another community and hoped your reputation didn't precede you. (Which it may, since I see people mentioned in the letters.)

Would that not serve as authority?

I do not see how...unless they were all united in One Church.

 

[concretecamper]

It means you would be kicked out of the local body and in some denoms, black listed against attending other churches of that denom.
In some communities there are groups of clergy that also practise informing ALL churches of so-called 'bad' people. Where there's a will, there's a way, on either side.

That does not address my question.

I never belonged to Kylissa's community to be kicked out of...

 

[~Anastasia~]

1. Alone
2. 2 or 3 witnesses
3. Church

I believe the church is probably the local body that met together, house to house, etc. however many that would be. It's an escalation in confrontation, so it makes sense to me. It seems the churches at the time may have mostly been small enough to share - when you come together each one has a song, a tongue, etc. And yet large enough maybe that there were those of different status and discrimination could be a problem. Speculation on my part - someone may actually know.

But I do think the church is probably that local body of believers who were acquainted, since they met regularly.

Well, since we were talking about the Bible, I answered the question from the point of the early church.

If you wish to apply it to today and get my answer in that context?

First I will say I don't think the church should be divided. I would never advocate for that. I wish it had never happened.

However, what does that leave us with? One can be brought up before the church, the local body. Or the leadership of the church overall.

In the world this size, what will it mean? Can they go across town or to another place and rejoin? I suppose the only thing really stopping them is their respect for the authority that kicked them out. However - if they really respected that authority, would they not have repented when the church confronted them with their sin?

 

[Mama Kidogo]

Yep. Really.



--> "Is the Bible being the direction and final arbiter defined in Scripture? I thought God held those positions."

Rather disparaging, wouldn't a reasonable person say?


I would think so, but all I was going on was what was written by you. Does that reflect a "high regard for scripture?" Maybe you meant to say something else, but I can only go by what I read.

So in your mind, asking a question is making a statement. I guess punctuation has no meaning to you. If you look my statement is simple. "I thought God was the direction and final arbiter." Yes I do place God above the Bible.

Funny that you find a question disparaging. I guess when you can't answer a question it's better to attack it?
It does not address my regard for scripture at all. You are reading something that wasn't written by presuming to know something you do not know about me.
So let me clear that up. It's the phrase "final arbiter" that I'm not in agreement with. God is the final arbiter.

 

[Albion]

So in your mind, asking a question is making a statement.

Not always, but often that is the case. I'm sure you've heard of tongue-in-cheek statements, sarcasm, etc.

I guess punctuation has no meaning to you.

All right. You've provided us with an example. Good.

What is being said by this sentence of yours? It's actually an accusation, isn't it? But if I comment on it, you might come back with some pious nonsense like "So in your mind, a simple statement of fact is the same passing judgment. I'm shocked, etc. etc."

'Nuff said.

 

[Rick Otto]

I am trying to reconcile things I read in Scripture, and I know there are different interpretations of these things. I would appreciate hearing different viewpoints and the reason for interpreting them that way. I really need reasons, if you know of any, because I see "what it says".

Please everyone try to be respectful. I know this question crosses denominational lines.

1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

This is NASB. The Living Bible says "if we confess our sins to Him" but all the other translations I can find say basically the same as this. I have always taken it to mean that we confess to God, and I really see no other reason to interpret this any differently.

And of course, we have OT precedence to confess to God, through the Psalms in many places:
Psalm 32:5 I acknowledged my sin to You, And my iniquity I did not hide; I said, “I will confess my transgressions to the Lord”; And You forgave the guilt of my sin.

And of course it is the Pharisees talking in verses like this, but we have several that are against Jesus such as Mark 2:7 which indicate at the least that the religious thought was that only God could forgive sins.
"Why does this man speak that way? He is blaspheming; who can forgive sins but God alone?"

And yet of course there are such as these:

James 5
14 Is anyone among you sick? Then he must call for the elders of the church and they are to pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord; 15 and the prayer offered in faith will restore the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up, and if he has committed sins, they will be forgiven him. 16 Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another so that you may be healed. The effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much.

John 20
21 So Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you; as the Father has sent Me, I also send you.” 22 And when He had said this, He breathed on them and *said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained.”

When I read online, I find reference to Matt 16 connected to this:
18 I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.”

And Matt 18 - which talks about several things, and I'm debating how much to consider as being context, and why.
5 “If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother. 16 But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every fact may be confirmed. 17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. 18 Truly I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.
19 “Again I say to you, that if two of you agree on earth about anything that they may ask, it shall be done for them by My Father who is in heaven. 20 For where two or three have gathered together in My name, I am there in their midst.”
21 Then Peter came and said to Him, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him? Up to seven times?” 22 Jesus *said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.

To be honest, this is one I was actually not wanting to consider, but now I have to deal with what is actually there.

Input?

Looks obvious to me by context, that He being the one to forgive, is the one to whom confession is given. No one can lawfully come between oneself & God.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Looks obvious to me by context, that He being the one to forgive, is the one to whom confession is given. No one can lawfully come between oneself & God.

Thank you for your comment.

I don't think it's so much that I would say I am wondering about someone "lawfully coming between oneself and God" ...

I am wondering about the Biblical basis for confession at all. And I'm afraid it's not really obvious by context, to me? (Not arguing with you, I only mean to say that to me, it's really not so clear?)

If you chose the bolding on the Scriptures in my reply that you quoted, then two of the three:

and if he has committed sins, they will be forgiven him. 16 Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another so that you may be healed.

and

18 Truly I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.

to me, from context, could legitimately be argued for confession to the congregation, on the first citation, and confession to one in Apostolic succession (though only through implication) on the second case.

Not trying to argue, just that saying it was obvious with what I quoted - well, as I said, it's just not obvious to me. I was expecting to find something that agreed with what you said (I was expecting to find that we confess directly to God) ... but I'm having a hard time "proving" it.

 

[GoingByzantine]

If I were a protestant, then I might still be inclined to "confess" even if it has no real sacramental meanings for me or my specific church. If you are burdened with sin, telling someone about it might help you heal. It's like a spouse who tells his partner he cheated, or a pastor who admits to his congregation that he embezzled money. Telling people your sins is painful, but it helps you heal and gets the guilt off your conscience.

 

[Rick Otto]

Thank you for your comment.

I don't think it's so much that I would say I am wondering about someone "lawfully coming between oneself and God" ...

I am wondering about the Biblical basis for confession at all. And I'm afraid it's not really obvious by context, to me? (Not arguing with you, I only mean to say that to me, it's really not so clear?)

If you chose the bolding on the Scriptures in my reply that you quoted, then two of the three:

and if he has committed sins, they will be forgiven him. 16 Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another so that you may be healed.

and

18 Truly I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.

to me, from context, could legitimately be argued for confession to the congregation, on the first citation, and confession to one in Apostolic succession (though only through implication) on the second case.

Not trying to argue, just that saying it was obvious with what I quoted - well, as I said, it's just not obvious to me. I was expecting to find something that agreed with what you said (I was expecting to find that we confess directly to God) ... but I'm having a hard time "proving" it.

OK.
Obvious to me is that confession isn't about performance of process, meaning it isn't mechanically effective if perfectly performed. It can happen like &/or along with, forgiveness - by degree.
But the process by which admission of moral, ethical culpability is achieved is still transparent. It involves the concept of conscience which bears with it a sense of self responsibility. One can be ethically responsible for something one is not specifically morally guilty of, like parent's & their children's behavior (thinking of the song "Mama Tried", lol)

So refresh me, who else do we need to confess too, & why?

 

[Rick Otto]

If I were a protestant, then I might still be inclined to "confess" even if it has no real sacramental meanings for me or my specific church. If you are burdened with sin, telling someone about it might help you heal. It's like a spouse who tells his partner he cheated, or a pastor who admits to his congregation that he embezzled money. Telling people your sins is painful, but it helps you heal and gets the guilt off your conscience.

They do that in the more charismatic congregations. They allow for a time to gather up front "for prayer" & this is when confession as well as some ministration of some spiritual gifts might occur.
It felt as holy or more so, than the RCC's confessional booth seemed to me, growing up in that tradition.

 

[Albion]

If I were a protestant, then I might still be inclined to "confess" even if it has no real sacramental meanings for me or my specific church. If you are burdened with sin, telling someone about it might help you heal.

I agree and I think that's a good presentation you made. But don't act as though it has no particular importance to Protestants. Somewhere or other in these threads, it's already been mentioned that Protestants from Anglicans to Lutherans to "altar call" Evangelicals do make use of some sort of formal confession of sins, often followed by an absolution.

 

[Rick Otto]

Thank you for your comment.

I don't think it's so much that I would say I am wondering about someone "lawfully coming between oneself and God" ...

I am wondering about the Biblical basis for confession at all. And I'm afraid it's not really obvious by context, to me? (Not arguing with you, I only mean to say that to me, it's really not so clear?)

If you chose the bolding on the Scriptures in my reply that you quoted, then two of the three:

and if he has committed sins, they will be forgiven him. 16 Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another so that you may be healed.

and

18 Truly I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.

to me, from context, could legitimately be argued for confession to the congregation, on the first citation, and confession to one in Apostolic succession (though only through implication) on the second case.

Not trying to argue, just that saying it was obvious with what I quoted - well, as I said, it's just not obvious to me. I was expecting to find something that agreed with what you said (I was expecting to find that we confess directly to God) ... but I'm having a hard time "proving" it.

Oh,... I see what you mean.
Yeah, "public" (congregation - wide) confession would obviously have a place.
Of course not everything could be dealt with appropriately that way.
Definitely looks like good judgement is going to be needed.

 

[MoreCoffee]

If I were a protestant, then I might still be inclined to "confess" even if it has no real sacramental meanings for me or my specific church. If you are burdened with sin, telling someone about it might help you heal. It's like a spouse who tells his partner he cheated, or a pastor who admits to his congregation that he embezzled money. Telling people your sins is painful, but it helps you heal and gets the guilt off your conscience.

I can't help but think that confession's reconciling and healing graces are not fully appreciated in the comments that some of our brethren bearing the various Protestant faith icons posted. We, as Catholic Christians, believe and teach that confession is an essential element of the Sacrament of Penance and Reconciliation, which consists in telling one’s sins to the priestly minister. And that confession of sins, even from a simply human point of view, frees us and facilitates our reconciliation with others. Through honest disclosure of one's wrong doing and faults a person looks squarely at the sins they are guilty of, takes responsibility for them, and thereby opens themselves again to God and to the communion of the Church in order to make a new future possible. The council of Trent observed that

When Christ’s faithful strive to confess all the sins that they can remember, they undoubtedly place all of them before the divine mercy for pardon. But those who fail to do so and knowingly withhold some, place nothing before the divine goodness for remission through the mediation of the priest, “for if the sick person is too ashamed to show his wound to the doctor, the medicine cannot heal what it does not know.”​

and saint Augustine wrote

Whoever confesses his sins... is already working with God. God indicts your sins; if you also indict them, you are joined with God. Man and sinner are, so to speak, two realities: when you hear “man” — this is what God has made; when you hear “sinner” — this is what man himself has made. Destroy what you have made, so that God may save what he has made.... When you begin to abhor what you have made, it is then that your good works are beginning, since you are accusing yourself of your evil works. The beginning of good works is the confession of evil works. You do the truth and come to the light.​

So in confession a Christian recognises the sin that is destroying themselves and those around them and begs God for mercy and forgiveness and in doing this the first step away from sin and towards God is made. This is the healing grace of confession at work. And when we sincerely repent of sins we seek to set to rights the harm we have done to others and this too is a work of grace as the council of Trent observed

The satisfaction that we make for our sins, however, is not so much ours as though it were not done through Jesus Christ. We who can do nothing ourselves, as if just by ourselves, can do all things with the cooperation of “him who strengthens” us. Thus man has nothing of which to boast, but all our boasting is in Christ... in whom we make satisfaction by bringing forth “fruits that befit repentance.” These fruits have their efficacy from him, by him they are offered to the Father, and through him they are accepted by the Father.​

So even though many Christians do not recognise the sacrament of confession they nevertheless seek to avail themselves of God's graces associated with it by having "accountability partners" to whom they confess faults and sins in order to both be held accountable by another and to receive help and advice from another because others can see things in us and in our conduct that we cannot see for ourselves unaided.

God bless.