Confession ...

[Mama Kidogo]

Aw, now. Let's not turn this into a confession thread.


Wait ...

ROFL

 

[stan1953]

I copied something that might help clear this up.

The Orthodox Church makes no judgment concerning the efficacy or validity of baptisms performed by other denominations, as regards people who are members of those respective denominations. The precise status and significance of such baptisms has not been revealed by God to the Orthodox Church; however, as a practical matter, they are treated as non-efficacious unless and until the person joins the Orthodox Church. Persons coming to Orthodoxy from other denominations, and who had been baptized with water in the name of the Trinity, are generally not received by holy baptism, but instead through holy chrismation, after which their former baptism is deemed to be efficacious. The final decision as to the mode of reception to be used in each case rests with the bishop. When there is doubt as to whether or how the person was previously baptized, a conditional baptism is employed, in which the officiant says something of the form of "if you are not yet baptized, I baptize you..." The need for conditional baptisms is motivated not only by factual uncertainties regarding the original baptism, but also by the uncertainty of some of the baptismal theology regarding the precise conditions for the validity of baptism. (The Church holds that one cannot be certain that opinions which are offered by pious theologians, but on which the Church has not made an authoritative pronouncement, are correct, and even authoritative pronouncements can have multiple interpretations which the Church has neither definitively endorsed or rejected.)
I bolded the parts concerning my husband, the priest and the bishop.

You're right, this would take this thread way off topic, as I see a few issues here, but thanks.

 

[stan1953]

I was referring to part of your question...



There is no such thing for Orthodox Christians. The vocabulary simply does not exist.

Orthodox Christians do not point to any point in time that they become 'saved'.

We were saved 2000 years ago on a Friday about 3pm.

We are being saved.

We will be saved.

God be gracious to me a sinner.

Thanks but I agree that this is taking the thread OFF topic so I won't ask anymore questions. This would be better dealt with on the soteriology Forum.
Sorry.

 

[~Anastasia~]

You're right, this would take this thread way off topic, as I see a few issues here, but thanks.

Feel free to discuss if you like ... I think I've gotten what I wanted as far as asking about confession, for now.

 

[stan1953]

OK well I'll start with Rom 10:9-11

If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.”

Now, IMO, the Bible is our direction and arbiter, NOT men, so as Paul tells us here, salvation is an act of our own volition, responding to the drawing of God and the instructions in His written Word.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Before confession it is helpful to examine one's conscience and there's a psalm which I think helps with that. Here it is.

[For the choirmaster Poem Of the sons of Korah]

As a deer yearns for running streams, so I yearn for you, my God.
I thirst for God, the living God; when shall I go to see the face of God?

I have no food but tears day and night, as all day long I am taunted,
'Where is your God?'

This I remember as I pour out my heart,

how I used to pass under the roof of the Most High used to go to the house of God,
among cries of joy and praise,
the sound of the feast.​

Why be so downcast, why all these sighs?
Hope in God!
I will praise him still, my Saviour, my God.

When I am downcast I think of you:

from the land of Jordan and Hermon,
I think of you, humble mountain.​

Deep is calling to deep by the roar of your cataracts,
all your waves and breakers have rolled over me.
In the daytime God sends his faithful love,
and even at night;
the song it inspires in me is a prayer to my living God.
I shall say to God, my rock,

'Why have you forgotten me?
Why must I go around in mourning, harassed by the enemy?'​

With death in my bones, my enemies taunt me,
all day long they ask me, 'Where is your God?'

Why so downcast, why all these sighs?
Hope in God!
I will praise him still, my Saviour, my God.
Psalms 42:1-11
​

 

[Mama Kidogo]

OK well I'll start with Rom 10:9-11

If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.”

Now, IMO, the Bible is our direction and arbiter, NOT men, so as Paul tells us here, salvation is an act of our own volition, responding to the drawing of God and the instructions in His written Word.

I'm interested in your opinion but wondering how you arrived to have it. As Paul wrote that, there was no such thing as a Bible. Just men with teachings they had received from Christ and some letters send to Churches.
I guess my questions are; At what point in history did the Bible become the direction and arbiter? and Is the Bible being the direction and final arbiter defined in Scripture? I thought God held those positions.

 

[concretecamper]

OK well I'll start with Rom 10:9-11

If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.”

Now, IMO, the Bible is our direction and arbiter, NOT men, so as Paul tells us here, salvation is an act of our own volition, responding to the drawing of God and the instructions in His written Word.

Your conclusion is simply not reflected in the text you chose.

1. Bible being our direction and arbiter is not stated or inferred in the text
2. The text does not say His instructions are His written word.

BTW...""If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead.....""

the demons believe these two facts. Therefore, for the text to make sense, actions must accompany these beliefs. This is how the Church understands it.

 

[Albion]

I'm interested in your opinion but wondering how you arrived to have it. As Paul wrote that, there was no such thing as a Bible. Just men with teachings they had received from Christ and some letters send to Churches.
I guess my questions are; At what point in history did the Bible become the direction and arbiter? and Is the Bible being the direction and final arbiter defined in Scripture? I thought God held those positions.

God's word is of questionable value according to what you say here, even though all of our churches consider it to be divine revelation...but meanwhile the pronouncements of mere men is held up in post after post here as being God's own truth. How much more ridiculous can these word games get?

 

[stan1953]

I'm interested in your opinion but wondering how you arrived to have it. As Paul wrote that, there was no such thing as a Bible. Just men with teachings they had received from Christ and some letters send to Churches.
I guess my questions are; At what point in history did the Bible become the direction and arbiter? and Is the Bible being the direction and final arbiter defined in Scripture? I thought God held those positions.

That would be an issue for another thread I'm afraid but maybe the following can help:
New Testament Canon, NT canon, how was the bible formed, how did the New Testament come into the present form, the early christian church, second century new testament canon, third century, church fathers, when was the new testament canon agreed upon
The Canon of the New Testament, by F.F. Bruce
The Christian Canon - How Our New Testament Bible Came to Be - Probe Ministries

Yes God holds these views as He inspired the Bible and our current canon is accepted as such inspiration. There is a difference between WHAT books are accepted by which branch of Christianity, as per the following:
Books of the Bible - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[stan1953]

Your conclusion is simply not reflected in the text you chose.
1. Bible being our direction and arbiter is not stated or inferred in the text
2. The text does not say His instructions are His written word.
BTW...""If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead.....""
the demons believe these two facts. Therefore, for the text to make sense, actions must accompany these beliefs. This is how the Church understands it.

This is now about salvation, and as such Rom 10:9-11 depicts what and how salvation is arrived at. You are welcome to start another thread about what the bible is etc...
You are confusing this scripture with James 2:14-26, which is about our walk of faith, AFTER salvation.

 

[concretecamper]

This is now about salvation, and as such Rom 10:9-11 depicts what and how salvation is arrived at. You are welcome to start another thread about what the bible is etc...
You are confusing this scripture with James 2:14-26, which is about our walk of faith, AFTER salvation.

Nope.....I just repeated your words and highlighted where your conclusion did not make sense....no need to change the subject to salvation.

 

[Hentenza]

I am trying to reconcile things I read in Scripture, and I know there are different interpretations of these things. I would appreciate hearing different viewpoints and the reason for interpreting them that way. I really need reasons, if you know of any, because I see "what it says".

Please everyone try to be respectful. I know this question crosses denominational lines.

1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

This is NASB. The Living Bible says "if we confess our sins to Him" but all the other translations I can find say basically the same as this. I have always taken it to mean that we confess to God, and I really see no other reason to interpret this any differently.

And of course, we have OT precedence to confess to God, through the Psalms in many places:
Psalm 32:5 I acknowledged my sin to You, And my iniquity I did not hide; I said, “I will confess my transgressions to the Lord”; And You forgave the guilt of my sin.

And of course it is the Pharisees talking in verses like this, but we have several that are against Jesus such as Mark 2:7 which indicate at the least that the religious thought was that only God could forgive sins.
"Why does this man speak that way? He is blaspheming; who can forgive sins but God alone?"

And yet of course there are such as these:

James 5
14 Is anyone among you sick? Then he must call for the elders of the church and they are to pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord; 15 and the prayer offered in faith will restore the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up, and if he has committed sins, they will be forgiven him. 16 Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another so that you may be healed. The effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much.

John 20
21 So Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you; as the Father has sent Me, I also send you.” 22 And when He had said this, He breathed on them and *said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained.”

When I read online, I find reference to Matt 16 connected to this:
18 I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.”

And Matt 18 - which talks about several things, and I'm debating how much to consider as being context, and why.
5 “If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother. 16 But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every fact may be confirmed. 17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. 18 Truly I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.
19 “Again I say to you, that if two of you agree on earth about anything that they may ask, it shall be done for them by My Father who is in heaven. 20 For where two or three have gathered together in My name, I am there in their midst.”
21 Then Peter came and said to Him, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him? Up to seven times?” 22 Jesus *said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.

To be honest, this is one I was actually not wanting to consider, but now I have to deal with what is actually there.

Input?

Hint: verse that brings it all together:
21 Then Peter came and said to Him, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him? Up to seven times?” 22 Jesus *said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.


Is this heavenly or earthly?

 

[stan1953]

Nope.....I just repeated your words and highlighted where your conclusion did not make sense....no need to change the subject to salvation.

Sorry if you are confused, but it IS about salvation. The OP said it was OK.

 

[Mama Kidogo]

God's word is of questionable value according to what you say hereeven though all of our churches consider it to be divine revelation...but meanwhile the pronouncements of mere men is held up in post after post here as being God's own truth. How much more ridiculous can these word games get?

Really? Please point to my words that question the value of God's word. I was asking more questions than making a statement.
I'm quite sure the Orthodox church holds scripture in very high regard.
It is not becoming to misrepresent what I wrote. my whole point in that post was to discover when the "Bible" became the sole authority.

 

[~Anastasia~]

From the OP, you bolded

James 5
and if he has committed sins, they will be forgiven him. 16 Therefore, confess your sins to one another

and

Matt 18
Truly I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.

Hint: verse that brings it all together:
21 Then Peter came and said to Him, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him? Up to seven times?” 22 Jesus *said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.


Is this heavenly or earthly?

Thank you for your comment. I'm still thinking about it, but I think I may be missing your point.

I am seeing a lot of connection between forgiveness and healing, which you seemed to be bringing out in the Scripture you bolded from my OP.

The only thing I can think of, if you are relating to confession, is that (are we speaking in a confessional?) one is to forgive repeatedly and repeatedly?

I have a feeling I am missing your point ... and I wish I wasn't. You often make really good ones.

 

[stan1953]

Hint: verse that brings it all together:
21 Then Peter came and said to Him, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him? Up to seven times?” 22 Jesus *said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.
Is this heavenly or earthly?

The key here are the words AGAINST ME. You are obliged to always forgive people so God can forgive them, otherwise the repercussions stay in place.

ALL sin is spiritual AND carnal.

 

[Albion]

Really?

Yep. Really.

Please point to my words that question the value of God's word.

--> "Is the Bible being the direction and final arbiter defined in Scripture? I thought God held those positions."

Rather disparaging, wouldn't a reasonable person say?

I'm quite sure the Orthodox church holds scripture in very high regard.

I would think so, but all I was going on was what was written by you. Does that reflect a "high regard for scripture?" Maybe you meant to say something else, but I can only go by what I read.

 

[~Anastasia~]

The key here are the words AGAINST ME. You are obliged to always forgive people so God can forgive them, otherwise the repercussions stay in place.

ALL sin is spiritual AND carnal.

That does bring up an interesting side point. Is God incapable of forgiving sin against someone else, if that person doesn't forgive the harm done them?

It would seem to lead to a lot of unforgiveness sin, since we also pray "forgive us our sins as we forgive those who sin against us" - and Jesus advised us that we would not be forgiven, if we do not forgive, correct?

I do certainly agree we ought to always forgive.

 

[concretecamper]

And Matt 18 - which talks about several things, and I'm debating how much to consider as being context, and why.
5 “If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother. 16 But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every fact may be confirmed. 17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. 18 Truly I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.

So from a protestant POV.....what is this church Jesus references? Singular and with some sort of authority.