Confession without conviction

[Carl Emerson]

Hi There,

Recently we were called to serve in a liturgical church.

One of the matters I have wrestled with in this new environment (for me) is the strong emphasis on confession and contrition and the lack of emphasis on walking in celebration of life daily with Him.

As I ponder this matter I realise I am being expected to confess without conviction.

I am interested in a discussion on this as I am very aware that our adversary can bind us up in condemnation that we think is conviction, and render us fruitless as we over focus on our imperfections rather than rejoice in being made whole.

While the liturgy beautifully preserves the fundamental truths of the faith it seems to fail in the area of encouraging Joy which after all should be a fundamental strength.

Comments greatly appreciated.

 

[Jeshu]

Hi There,

Recently we were called to serve in a liturgical church.

One of the matters I have wrestled with in this new environment (for me) is the strong emphasis on confession and contrition and the lack of emphasis on walking in celebration of life daily with Him.

As I ponder this matter I realise I am being expected to confess without conviction.

I am interested in a discussion on this as I am very aware that our adversary can bind us up in condemnation that we think is conviction, and render us fruitless as we over focus on our imperfections rather than rejoice in being made whole.

While the liturgy beautifully preserves the fundamental truths of the faith it seems to fail in the area of encouraging Joy which after all should be a fundamental strength.

Comments greatly appreciated.

Good point. i have learned to understand that looking at sin be gets sin, for we are not looking at Christ any more but sin. From sin streams sin. So confessing sins without celebrating the liberation in Christ is futile in my opinion.

Rather thankfulness leads to praise, which leads to loving God, and loving God does no wilful wrong but does what is right without being told.

So yes please do focus on the Joy brother. Keep filling your heart with Joy that Jesus set you free from your sins, and that now you can praise Him with a sincere and united heart. This will bring much loving about i know to be true. God is love, how best to get to know than through Joy?

It has been one of my best teacher, and being joyful is so much fun. Sadly i don't get those times very often, much more depressed lately, but the joy of His salvation lives on in my heart no matter how down i am.

Peace.

 

[Aussie Pete]

Hi There,

Recently we were called to serve in a liturgical church.

One of the matters I have wrestled with in this new environment (for me) is the strong emphasis on confession and contrition and the lack of emphasis on walking in celebration of life daily with Him.

As I ponder this matter I realise I am being expected to confess without conviction.

I am interested in a discussion on this as I am very aware that our adversary can bind us up in condemnation that we think is conviction, and render us fruitless as we over focus on our imperfections rather than rejoice in being made whole.

While the liturgy beautifully preserves the fundamental truths of the faith it seems to fail in the area of encouraging Joy which after all should be a fundamental strength.

Comments greatly appreciated.

Yes. I know what you mean. In some places, virtually everything is a ritual. I was compelled to go to that kind of church for three years. It turned me off what I thought was church. I came to believe that eternity was sitting through one of those meetings. Joy? I think the roof would have caved in if someone smiled.

 

[GreekOrthodox]

Yes. I know what you mean. In some places, virtually everything is a ritual. I was compelled to go to that kind of church for three years. It turned me off what I thought was church. I came to believe that eternity was sitting through one of those meetings. Joy? I think the roof would have caved in if someone smiled.

I've sat through some of those services myself. And then there is this solemn Easter hymn

 

[Paidiske]

I think, for me, part of making sense of confession as a routine part of liturgical worship is understanding where it fits in the service.

For example, in my tradition, we put confession near the start of the service; we gather, we acknowledge our sin, we are assured of God's forgiveness, and from that assurance we then go on to praise God and to reflect on Scripture and receive communion. The structure of the liturgy shows us that our joy - expressed in praise - is fed by our sins having been forgiven, and that our sin being dealt with opens our ability to be nurtured in faith. Putting confession up front then allows us to walk in celebration through the rest of the service.

I don't know if that's a helpful perspective?

 

[The Liturgist]

Yes. I know what you mean. In some places, virtually everything is a ritual. I was compelled to go to that kind of church for three years. It turned me off what I thought was church. I came to believe that eternity was sitting through one of those meetings. Joy? I think the roof would have caved in if someone smiled.

Respectfully, you haven’t experienced liturgical beauty, and you are basically denying yourself the greatest joy Christianity can provide based on a bad experience with a ritualistic church. Joylessness is not something one finds in a devout congregation.

There is also a possibility that you confused solemn contemplation and reception of the Eucharist with lack of joy. Just because we don’t bust moves, clap our hands to rock music, have pastors who say “can I get an amen” and have people spontaneously engaging in glossolalia, or shaking, or being slain in the spirit, which by the way are activities which contravene St. Paul’s instructions to the early churches regarding church order in the context of charisms, does not mean we are not filled with joy.

Do you think that millions of Roman Catholics are ready to leave or stage an internal revolt of some kind, or join the schismatic SSPX and other groups in the wake of Traditiones Custodes out of mere familiarity? If so, take a look at the pure joy you see on websites like New Liturgical Movement

 

[Carl Emerson]

Yes. I know what you mean. In some places, virtually everything is a ritual. I was compelled to go to that kind of church for three years. It turned me off what I thought was church. I came to believe that eternity was sitting through one of those meetings. Joy? I think the roof would have caved in if someone smiled.

Yes but our circumstances are very different.

I have had an undeniable call to this church and expect Him to move there.

So I can put up with whatever, while I wait in hope of a serious move.

Our Minister has a heart for God and life and has the necessary malleability to go with the move when it arrives.

 

[bèlla]

While the liturgy beautifully preserves the fundamental truths of the faith it seems to fail in the area of encouraging Joy which after all should be a fundamental strength.

Perhaps that's why you're there.

~bella

 

[The Liturgist]

I think, for me, part of making sense of confession as a routine part of liturgical worship is understanding where it fits in the service.

For example, in my tradition, we put confession near the start of the service; we gather, we acknowledge our sin, we are assured of God's forgiveness, and from that assurance we then go on to praise God and to reflect on Scripture and receive communion. The structure of the liturgy shows us that our joy - expressed in praise - is fed by our sins having been forgiven, and that our sin being dealt with opens our ability to be nurtured in faith. Putting confession up front then allows us to walk in celebration through the rest of the service.

I don't know if that's a helpful perspective?

Indeed so. I was also going to ask @Carl Emerson if by confession he means auricular or general confession. There is a possibility his parish is overdoing it.

I would really like to know what denominations @Carl Emerson and @Aussie Pete have had these unpleasant experiences in, in the present and in the past, respectively, because the liturgical experience and the potential pitfalls vary, and also what some people might perceive as liturgical might be something like a low church Methodist or Presbyterian service which is following an order of worship and using the RCL but is not at the level of high church Anglicanism or Anglo Catholicism or Lutheran Evangelical Catholicism or Moravian liturgy or Orthodox and Assyrian liturgy, or the old Latin Rites, such as a solemn conventual Latin mass and vespers in a Cistercian monastery with full Gregorian chant. Since there is a world of difference between singing from a hymnal with piano accompaniment and using the RCL in a boring church building, and the kind of exquisite beauty that we have been discussing in Traditional Theology.

 

[The Liturgist]

Yes but our circumstances are very different.

I have had an undeniable call to this church and expect Him to move there.

So I can put up with whatever, while I wait in hope of a serious move.

Our Minister has a heart for God and life and has the necessary malleability to go with the move when t arrives.

So if you could provide @Paidiske and myself with more detail, I am sure @Paidiske might have some very practical suggestions on how to make the services more joyful for you or for the entire congregation, and I will probably have some very impractical suggestions about what vestments, paraments and altar furnishings and liturgical texts you should be using.

By the way, just to give you an idea as to how much some people get out of the liturgy, I am at a point where when I visit a monastery, one of the things I appreciate is that usually there are no sermons or homilies for any of the services, depending on the monastery. This is also something I appreciate about Vespers, Compline and Matins (Anglican Mattins and Evensong on Sundays generally has a sermon, but not the weekday services that are broadcast on BBC Radio Three and archived stating in the 1940s and continuing until the present, on YouTube). Also, the only silver lining of Covid is that even where restrictions have been lifted or abolished, for example, the US, livestreaming of services continues, and this lets me visit many churches in a week virtually.

 

[BobRyan]

Hi There,

Recently we were called to serve in a liturgical church.

One of the matters I have wrestled with in this new environment (for me) is the strong emphasis on confession and contrition and the lack of emphasis on walking in celebration of life daily with Him.

As I ponder this matter I realise I am being expected to confess without conviction.

I am interested in a discussion on this as I am very aware that our adversary can bind us up in condemnation that we think is conviction, and render us fruitless as we over focus on our imperfections rather than rejoice in being made whole.

While the liturgy beautifully preserves the fundamental truths of the faith it seems to fail in the area of encouraging Joy which after all should be a fundamental strength.

Comments greatly appreciated.

Ps 51:1-13 comes to mind

Also note that it is the Holy Spirit "that convicts" of sin and righteousness and judgment. We cannot do it ourselves.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Hi There,

Recently we were called to serve in a liturgical church.

One of the matters I have wrestled with in this new environment (for me) is the strong emphasis on confession and contrition and the lack of emphasis on walking in celebration of life daily with Him.

As I ponder this matter I realise I am being expected to confess without conviction.

I am interested in a discussion on this as I am very aware that our adversary can bind us up in condemnation that we think is conviction, and render us fruitless as we over focus on our imperfections rather than rejoice in being made whole.

While the liturgy beautifully preserves the fundamental truths of the faith it seems to fail in the area of encouraging Joy which after all should be a fundamental strength.

Comments greatly appreciated.

For Catholics, confession without contrition is a sin in itself. God knows and hell may await. If the priest is aware of a lack of contrition he is even to refuse absolution.

 

[The Liturgist]

Ps 51:1-13 comes to mind

Also note that it is the Holy Spirit "that convicts" of sin and righteousness and judgment. We cannot do it ourselves.

Of late I’ve really been enjoying your posts; I feel like aside from our well known differences of opinion, we actually agree on pretty much everything else, and I have noticed you are often the person who points out obvious points of universal Nicene doctrine which have otherwise remained unspoken, and I really respect that. I am hoping we can bond on these and other common views. God bless you, my friend.

 

[BobRyan]

Of late I’ve really been enjoying your posts; I feel like aside from our well known differences of opinion, we actually agree on pretty much everything else, and I have noticed you are often the person who points out obvious points of universal Nicene doctrine which have otherwise remained unspoken, and I really respect that. I am hoping we can bond on these and other common views. God bless you, my friend.

Amen! I agree that we do have many common points of belief. And I don't mind having differences either - I do not take it as a 'bad thing' that someone does not agree with me on every single point.

 

[Carl Emerson]

I think, for me, part of making sense of confession as a routine part of liturgical worship is understanding where it fits in the service.

For example, in my tradition, we put confession near the start of the service; we gather, we acknowledge our sin, we are assured of God's forgiveness, and from that assurance we then go on to praise God and to reflect on Scripture and receive communion. The structure of the liturgy shows us that our joy - expressed in praise - is fed by our sins having been forgiven, and that our sin being dealt with opens our ability to be nurtured in faith. Putting confession up front then allows us to walk in celebration through the rest of the service.

I don't know if that's a helpful perspective?

Yes - this is the pattern we follow and I appreciate it.

I don't mean to bag the liturgy at all, it makes sense but I had hoped the thread might focus more on the confession and contrition becoming vain repetition when practiced outside of the experience of individual conviction.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Respectfully, you haven’t experienced liturgical beauty, and you are basically denying yourself the greatest joy Christianity can provide based on a bad experience with a ritualistic church. Joylessness is not something one finds in a devout congregation.

Mmmm... I am not having a bad experience.

I appreciate and understand the place of liturgy.

I was more hoping that we could discuss the issue of repeated confession becoming vain repetition if disconnected from individual conviction.

Are there ways of making sure this does not happen?

Is conviction not seen as necessary?

 

[Carl Emerson]

I would really like to know what denominations @Carl Emerson and @Aussie Pete have had these unpleasant experiences

I am not having an unpleasant experience - far from it.

I am rather asking for discussion around repetition becoming vain when disconnected from personal conviction and how this can be avoided.

It would be interesting to discover if folks experience conviction concerning specific sin before confession. Is this regular and repetitive? Does this matter? Is sin subtly being normalised by this process?

 

[Carl Emerson]

So if you could provide @Paidiske and myself with more detail, I am sure @Paidiske might have some very practical suggestions on how to make the services more joyful for you or for the entire congregation, and I will probably have some very impractical suggestions about what vestments, paraments and altar furnishings and liturgical texts you should be using.

By the way, just to give you an idea as to how much some people get out of the liturgy, I am at a point where when I visit a monastery, one of the things I appreciate is that usually there are no sermons or homilies for any of the services, depending on the monastery. This is also something I appreciate about Vespers, Compline and Matins (Anglican Mattins and Evensong on Sundays generally has a sermon, but not the weekday services that are broadcast on BBC Radio Three and archived stating in the 1940s and continuing until the present, on YouTube). Also, the only silver lining of Covid is that even where restrictions have been lifted or abolished, for example, the US, livestreaming of services continues, and this lets me visit many churches in a week virtually.

Yes we are enjoying the lockdown with evening prayer and online services.

I am not suggesting that there is a problem with the structure, it makes sense.

I think however there could be missing components that would have been naturally present in the early church - but that is best on another thread.

 

[Carl Emerson]

For Catholics, confession without contrition is a sin in itself. God knows and hell may await. If the priest is aware of a lack of contrition he is even to refuse absolution.

How would he know?

 

[Paidiske]

I don't mean to bag the liturgy at all, it makes sense but I had hoped the thread might focus more on the confession and contrition becoming vain repetition when practiced outside of the experience of individual conviction.

If the conviction is not there, perhaps the confession is designed to help form that conviction?

After all, 1 John 1:8 comes to mind.