Concerns

[archer75]

I know most of my topics on this site as of late are mostly just me ranting, but I've just had many concerns about many different things lately. This time I think I finally got to the root of much of my recent depression.

In short, I honestly wonder why I didn't just go Protestant. I seem to be more in agreement with them regarding social issues and stuff. I am a progressively minded free-thinker and kind of always have been. However, since becoming Orthodox I have had to repress that side of myself because God forbid an Orthodox Christian openly preach against anti-semitism, islamophobia, racism/nationalism, right-wing politics, secular civil unions for same sex couples, creationism, etc. I feel like I'm compromising most of my deeply held values, and all for the sake of disproving I'm some Antifa agent who only joined the church to sabotage it from the inside(yes, that's an actual accusation that has been made about me in the past).

There is exactly nothing heretical about participating in civil society in accordance with your conscience. And if someone doesn't like that, you can show them this post, which they will ignore.

There are plenty of progressive Orthodox Christians, both cradle and convert. Maybe you could meet some of them on a Facebook group if you do that sort of thing.

If someone tells you that the OC has a pre-packaged answer for every single "social issue" in today's world, they might want to take a look at this list:

• should we have public education? Until what grade?
• What should teachers be paid?
• How often should garbage be picked up, if at all?
• What financial incentives, if any, should there be for people to get civilly married? If there should be some, why should we not speak against that if it is not a sacramental marriage?
• Should coffee be illegal? Alcohol? If not, why not? If yes, please name the exact criminal penalties to be applied on conviction, or the range of such penalties. Cite Scripture and the Fathers wherever possible.
• Should presidents get a pension? If so, how much?

Anyone could easily add a hundred questions, minor and major, to this list.

Racism is obviously unChristian. We are all of the race of Adam. Modern "phenotype" racism is not only unChristian, but incoherent. You will find Orthodox clergy condemning it here and further notes by Fr Cassian Sibley, a priest in the ROCOR and one of the drafters, here. (Fr Cassian is eloquent in general and makes a number of public posts on Facebook about various topics. You might like to follow him, as he offers a complex of Christian views on various topics that is far from in line with "right-wing" US politics, but does not toe the "liberal" line, either.)

You answer to God in the end. You do not answer to people at your parish . That said, I imagine it is quite difficult to be in the situation you are in. I agree with much of what you wrote. PM me anytime if you want to talk. There are many good responses on this thread already. I hope some will be helpful to you.

 

[truefiction1]

I guess I just really struggle since I have a logical mind and God is not at all logical. It takes quite a lot of suspension of disbelief to believe in God.

There have been times that I've struggled in such ways as this too. But belief is of the heart, not the mind (Romans 10:10, Psalms 14:1). The mind will see only what the heart directs it to see. A true skeptic could witness a resurrection from the dead, and their mind will succeed nonetheless in finding a way to deny that God caused it. Such is the nature of freewill, when our hearts don't want us to believe due to our love of the world (sinful passion).

 

[archer75]

I suppose it's kind of silly because even when I first decided to join the church I knew exactly what I was getting into and that it would definitely contradict with my personal values.

I knew that some of what I would encounter and had encountered would conflict with my beliefs, and further, I was pretty sure that some of it, such as unabashed racism, would conflict with Christianity. In some ways it's easier for me because I am not that social, which people feel and then limit our interactions to pleasantries. And the parish where I was received was somewhat more "liberal" than yours.

Also, do remember that when there is a large immigrant population, people hold onto a lot of stuff that to them is all of a piece. Religion, food, language. But if a lot of Orthodox people from one part of the globe eat a lot of cabbage, that doesn't mean that cabbage is the food of the saints or is a special holy food. Similarly, when some immigrants (as happens often in some circles in the US) end up holding anti-immigrant views, claiming that they themselves were the last "good" ones, this is an opinion that (right or wrong) is not formed in an Orthodox thought-matrix, but a social and political matrix. And other people's political opinions are (literally) irrelevant to whether you are "of the faith."

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Politics are far more complex than they appear. 99% of my parish ADORE Trump....not for his big mouth or jabs, not for his tweets, and certainly they aren’t white supremacists! They applaud his pro-life stance, refusal to turn our nation into part of the globalist cabal of groups like the EU, for his willingness to stand up to militant Islam, his disdain for the vile LGBT filth plaguing society, his protection of Christianity in an age where it is loathed, and for not being a media-controlled phony globalist mouthpiece chained to the braintrusts.

You might want to accept the notion that you’re wrong to be so liberal. Cohabitation, pornography, drugs, abortion, the sodomy lifestyle of “LGBTQLMNOP”, and hosts of other liberal causes are 3vil. You’re going to trust the conventions of liberal Canadian society over the timeless moral compass of Mother Church? Don’t you think Christians living in the time of the Roman Empire and then the Ottoman Empire had to struggle with their rich morality being at odds with those around them? Frankly, being a Christian means jettisoning your “personal” values. We replace our radical liberty for obedience.

You struggle with mental illness, so can you trust your liberal contemporary values are built on a good foundation? You might want to second guess yourself and realize Satan might be using politics as an idol for you, a stumbling block to keep you kneeling at the altar of Trudeaux, not the Risen Lord. No politics should keep us from Christ....

I suppose it's kind of silly because even when I first decided to join the church I knew exactly what I was getting into and that it would definitely contradict with my personal values. Sure enough, I found that out the hard way. I got attacked as being a modernist heretic and all manner of other insults. In reality I'm simply an ordinary person navigating the world as I see it. I am a product of a liberal society because, as most know, Canada is an extremely liberal society. I was born and raised in that society and people usually adopt the values they are raised around.

That being said, yes the Orthodox(and really Christians in general) are more conservative than the general population. I've even seen people in my parish praise Trump during Coffee Hour and that's a rarity in Canada. Here it's seen assomething only right-wing extremist nutters and white supremacists do. Of course I don't fit any of that at all since I despise Trump.

Lastly, the majority of Orthodox in my city are cradle Orthodox. The values they were raised with are clearly drastically different from the ones I was raised with in my secular/non-religious family. Naturally, that puts me at odds with a lot of people. There's not too many other fellow converts I can confide in either since frankly there's so few of them in the local community. It's also hard for me to even get close to people do to my own issues like mental illness and stuff.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Duplicate

 

[MariaJLM]

Politics are far more complex than they appear. 99% of my parish ADORE Trump....not for his big mouth or jabs, not for his tweets, and certainly they aren’t white supremacists! They applaud his pro-life stance, refusal to turn our nation into part of the globalist cabal of groups like the EU, for his willingness to stand up to militant Islam, his disdain for the vile LGBT filth plaguing society, his protection of Christianity in an age where it is loathed, and for not being a media-controlled phony globalist mouthpiece chained to the braintrusts.

You might want to accept the notion that you’re wrong to be so liberal. Cohabitation, pornography, drugs, abortion, the sodomy lifestyle of “LGBTQLMNOP”, and hosts of other liberal causes are 3vil. You’re going to trust the conventions of liberal Canadian society over the timeless moral compass of Mother Church? Don’t you think Christians living in the time of the Roman Empire and then the Ottoman Empire had to struggle with their rich morality being at odds with those around them? Frankly, being a Christian means jettisoning your “personal” values. We replace our radical liberty for obedience.

You struggle with mental illness, so can you trust your liberal contemporary values are built on a good foundation? You might want to second guess yourself and realize Satan might be using politics as an idol for you, a stumbling block to keep you kneeling at the altar of Trudeaux, not the Risen Lord. No politics should keep us from Christ....

Being actively told that my views are Satanic really doesn't help matters. Please just shut up. You just reinforced precisely one of the issues I'm having. Way to prove my original point.

 

[truefiction1]

Being actively told that my views are Satanic really doesn't help matters. Please just shut up. You just reinforced precisely one of the issues I'm having. Way to prove my original point.

Maria, sorry to change the subject, but I see that Canada is your listed location under your avatar. Are you anywhere near the City of Toronto? If so, have you ever been to St. John the Compassionate Mission? I'm just curious. Thanks.

 

[MariaJLM]

Maria, sorry to change the subject, but I see that Canada is your listed location under your avatar. Are you anywhere near the City of Toronto? If so, have you ever been to St. John the Compassionate Mission? I'm just curious. Thanks.

I am on the other side of the country from Toronto, sadly. I do know about that mission and sadly never been there since travel across Canada is absurdly expensive.

 

[truefiction1]

I am on the other side of the country from Toronto, sadly. I do know about that mission and sadly never been there since travel across Canada is absurdly expensive.

I'm sorry to hear that, MariaJLM. I'll remember you in my prayers.

Christ is Risen!!!

 

[Not David]

Isn't your Patron Saint, Mary of Paris, famous for her liberal ideas? It wouldn't be an issue for you holding certain progressive ideas. And don't try to care for what other say if it is done in a judgmental manner.

 

[Stabat Mater dolorosa]

Politics are far more complex than they appear. 99% of my parish ADORE Trump....not for his big mouth or jabs, not for his tweets, and certainly they aren’t white supremacists! They applaud his pro-life stance, refusal to turn our nation into part of the globalist cabal of groups like the EU, for his willingness to stand up to militant Islam, his disdain for the vile LGBT filth plaguing society, his protection of Christianity in an age where it is loathed, and for not being a media-controlled phony globalist mouthpiece chained to the braintrusts.

You might want to accept the notion that you’re wrong to be so liberal. Cohabitation, pornography, drugs, abortion, the sodomy lifestyle of “LGBTQLMNOP”, and hosts of other liberal causes are 3vil. You’re going to trust the conventions of liberal Canadian society over the timeless moral compass of Mother Church? Don’t you think Christians living in the time of the Roman Empire and then the Ottoman Empire had to struggle with their rich morality being at odds with those around them? Frankly, being a Christian means jettisoning your “personal” values. We replace our radical liberty for obedience.

You struggle with mental illness, so can you trust your liberal contemporary values are built on a good foundation? You might want to second guess yourself and realize Satan might be using politics as an idol for you, a stumbling block to keep you kneeling at the altar of Trudeaux, not the Risen Lord. No politics should keep us from Christ....

Obedience and humility, thanks for a great post.

Being actively told that my views are Satanic really doesn't help matters. Please just shut up. You just reinforced precisely one of the issues I'm having. Way to prove my original point.

What is this for an answer to a man who's spent his time typing a rather long and solid response to your thread?
Sooo, basically if something doesn't itch in your ear then it's just shoot the messenger...?

Did brother Gurney anywhere in his post tell you untrue things?
What are the fruits of liberal values? Islamophobia is just this stupid manipulative term created by the leftwing globalists anyway.
Phobia is a term which refers to a unreasonable and illogical fear of something totally harmless.
Well, Muhammed and his bandits were ruthless in the past and continue to be so today.
The reason I'm hung up in Islamophobia in particular is because it's one of the prime examples of leftwing brainwash there is.
Sadly its just one of many such examples though.

But this isnt about politics nor is it about the church is it? It's about obedience and disobedience isnt it?
Adhere to the church and her teachings or your mind which you've admitted yourself is struggling with issues on it's own.
All humans minds are fragile and untrustworthy which is why the church is so so important.
If we go with our own intellect over the church as a guiding system then we'll be like chaff in the wind.

Get back to your prayer life and force yourself to confession and liturgy. That's a first priority for you, heck for anyone who's struggling in faith and in life.
Let christ heal you and let your whole self be subject for his healing power.
Set Christ and his church first in your life instead of liberal hogwash of the fallen world.

The answers is in Christ not making up excuses and looking up problems where you should be looking up answers. You can look at this situation as one where you're called to repent and come back to the Lord or you can cling to a offer mentality.
It's your choice, but I highly reccomend Christ and the Orthodox church as answer to your issues over the liberal world.

Any way , this is tough love so just hate me for it and report this post or actually listen to it. Your choice.

 

[MariaJLM]

I should just get a mod to close this thread. People are just being rude now.

 

[truefiction1]

I should just get a mod to close this thread. People are just being rude now.

You may have it closed, MariaJLM, but for what it's worth, I've re-read your opening post and I don't believe there's anything in there that you should allow to prevent you from personally walking in God's presence, as a devout, Orthodox Christian and handmaid of God. Please just let God Live in your heart, through your prayer and repentance, with striving to keep all of Christ's sayings. This is of more value, by far, than any of the opinions of anyone on here, or even our own values. As we grow in the knowledge of God's Love, by His Holy Spirit, God's values become our values, and God's will becomes our will. There's no better way for us to Live.

Glory to Jesus Christ! Glory forever!

 

[ArmyMatt]

a priest that I have the utmost respect for is a committed liberal and democrat. he is all about social justice, climate change, etc. he only disagrees with the Left's stance on abortion and the LGBTQIA movement (although he can tolerate civil unions). theologically, and he lets his theology dictate his politics, he is as Orthodox as they come.

 

[rusmeister]

Being actively told that my views are Satanic really doesn't help matters. Please just shut up. You just reinforced precisely one of the issues I'm having. Way to prove my original point.

I think this is unfair to Gurney. He said that Satan MIGHT at times use politics as an idol, and only “might” in regards to you. I do think it worth considering that some people considering worldly politics as of equal importance as our Faith, and that our politics might really become a stumbling block. Mine, yours, anyone’s.

 

[All4Christ]

Prayers for you, Maria!

 

[archer75]

@~Matteus~ this is not about obedience. When I was received, there was nothing in the service book that told me who to vote for. Neither has a confessor ever given me an obedience regarding my voting habits or political inclinations. The notion that upon being received into the faith you hand over your conscience is simply incorrect.

 

[-Sasha-]

If you are having issues praying, and even believing in God, maybe political positions should take a backseat while you sort out these bigger issues with your spiritual life? Are politics really such a significant part of your parish that a stance on LGBT relationships is more the peoples focus than belief in God is? If so, that seems like a real problem. Could it be possible that you are just focusing in so much on these aspects because they are the ones which you personally place the most importance on? ie "For where your treasure is, there will be your heart also."

I was really into politics when I first joined the Church. I read all the online articles about what political activities people within the Church were involved in, judged plenty of people (laity and clergy) I had never even met, nor would I likely ever meet, for my interpretation of their opinions. I slowly realized that the Orthodox people I knew in real life rarely even talk about politics. So rarely, in fact, that no one I have met in the Church since my conversion has even mentioned any strong political affiliations to me. My point being, even when political issues weren't at all in the forefront of my experience with Orthodoxy, I was seeking them out purposefully online anyway because that is where my interest was - where my heart was. The literal only authoritative political statement I have actually heard in my Church though, was: "Our 'party' is Christ." And I can't find a thing to disagree with there.

I'm not trying to accuse you of anything here, but just suggesting that maybe if you take a couple of steps back, refocus on trying to develop a relationship with God, and try not to put so much emphasis on politics... You might find that the people around you are pretty much doing the same thing. I mean the actual people around you, not the ones you find online, especially in forums and social media pages specifically dedicated to politics.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Prayers for you Maria.

Simply, I think pretty much all of us (especially as converts) have things we struggle with. I think it's human. God takes us and deals with us and brings us along in His time. Unfortunately, yes it can be an uncomfortable time and process. And it can be difficult.

You didn't ask for my advice, but I would hope you would avail yourself of what the Church offers that can benefit you. I understand you have difficulty getting to Church. Maybe you can explore some ways to get help with that? There are streaming Church services, though obviously that still doesn't get you the Eucharist. I know my SF would be all over encouraging you in your personal prayers first and foremost. There are the daily readings. Writings from the Saints can be very edifying. Something like Ancient Faith Radio can provide you with music and teaching/preaching. Asking for prayers is always good. And so on ...

As for values ... you know it's funny. I see two patterns, one related to age, and one within the Church.

As to age, it seems close to universal that more liberal ideas appeal more to people as they are younger, and most move toward more conservative ideas as they get older (let's ignore politicians - I'm talking about "real people").

But what's been interesting to me is what I'm slowly seeing by watching how these things are influenced by the Church. On some topics, yes, the Church is very conservative. (I would soften that by pointing out what ArmyMatt said about while we believe certain things, that doesn't always mean we expect secular society to live by them.)

But the interesting part? In some cases what is embraced by liberal politics is more "compassionate" ... and in that circumstance the Church's teaching can lean more liberal than hardline conservative. For me personally, I don't like Trump as a person. But in general, I support many of his policies for the sake of being best for the nation (I really have to separate the person and the politics). But things can be nuanced. While I think it is necessary for a nation to protect its borders and what it allows as far as foreigners, I can also appreciate the necessity of treating persons with human decency and compassion. (I do NOT want to get into particular arguments because things are sometimes misrepresented and US politics is a nasty business). But my point is that Orthodoxy does not equal embracing a political party, but a much broader set of ideals. And the truth is often somewhere just right or left of a balanced center, and not in some extreme expression of opinion (which our politics seem to tend to extremes and will often tend to be problematic past a certain point in either direction).

I am sorry that you are struggling. But if I were in your position, I would hope to tell myself to give myself time, and be gentle. In some ways our thoughts may need to be brought in line with what the Church teaches, and she gives us space as long as we don't rebel for the sake of rebellion. And in some ways, we might not understand yet that the Church allows more space for nuance and maybe our ideas DO fit, or at least maybe the motives behind them fit, and we aren't so badly off as we might think.

I do applaud your bravery for bringing up your issues. Everyone has taken different approaches in an effort to help. I hope you will see at least that love motivates people's differing efforts. It can be difficult in person to give a person what they need. Online we don't really know each other and lose 90% of the information we use to interact in person, so it can be rough going.

Prayers for you.

 

[Stabat Mater dolorosa]

@~Matteus~ this is not about obedience. When I was received, there was nothing in the service book that told me who to vote for. Neither has a confessor ever given me an obedience regarding my voting habits or political inclinations. The notion that upon being received into the faith you hand over your conscience is simply incorrect.

Mea Culpa, I should mind my own business anyway.


@MariaJLM
I'm sorry that I meddled, you are in my prayers and love. God bless.