Completely Conformed

[Ron Gurley]

Therefore, everyone born-again has been perfected in their spirit being, which will be fully manifested at the “Resurrection of the just” (Luk 14:14), due to the absence of the corruptible body and the sinful nature

I disagree.

At the John 3 / Ephesians 2 SALVATION EVENT, Man's spirit is CHANGED....born again from above. The SANCTIFICATION PROCESS begins...a daily progressive battle between the "old man" and his survived "sin nature"....VERSUS...."the new creature In Christ" and the comfort and guidance of the permanenly indwelling God the Holy Perfect.

Believers never reach 100% SANCTIFICATION., ,,,
but we should spiritually TRY!

Matthew 5:48
Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

There has been only One perfect and sinless One.

 

[Ron Gurley]

Believers sin after salvation. 1 John 1

The old man never dies. Romans 7

 

[WordSword]

Therefore, everyone born-again has been perfected in their spirit being, which will be fully manifested at the “Resurrection of the just” (Luk 14:14), due to the absence of the corruptible body and the sinful nature

I disagree.

At the John 3 / Ephesians 2 SALVATION EVENT, Man's spirit is CHANGED....born again from above. The SANCTIFICATION PROCESS begins...a daily progressive battle between the "old man" and his survived "sin nature"....VERSUS...."the new creature In Christ" and the comfort and guidance of the permanenly indwelling God the Holy Perfect.

Believers never reach 100% SANCTIFICATION., ,,,
but we should spiritually TRY!

Matthew 5:48
Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

There has been only One perfect and sinless One.

I believe we are discussing different issues RC. It appears you are discussing the "walk in the Spirit," but I'm discussing our standing in Christ. Our walk and our standing in Christ are separate issues. The prior has no effect on the latter but merely manifests it!

How we live is the result of our sanctification and all the godly attributes which are included in salvation. Our walk has no more with producing these attributes than the branch has with producing the fruit, for the branch only "bears" (display; manifest; show - Jhn 15:8) the fruit and it's only the vine that produces it.

This is just a matter of realizing that what the saint does never produces the godliness which is already within his possession by Christ. All we can do is please God, because favor and godliness has already been provided (2Pet 1:3).

Blessings to you!

 

[WordSword]

Believers sin after salvation. 1 John 1

The old man never dies. Romans 7

I agree with you that believers cannot live without sinning, but the "perfection" we have is our standing and place in Christ.

 

[justbyfaith]

Q: Does one regenerated and renewed in the Holy Ghost continue walking in the direction of sin?

A: No. 1 John 3:3-7.

As a believer in Christ I have repented from walking in sin's direction and so the old sins no longer have ANY place in my life. Also the sins of the flesh I am committing less and less as time passes, because I am walking in the direction of righteousness as my destination. There may come a point when I cross the proverbial finish line and continue walking because I have not died in obtaining by faith entire sanctification (1 Thessalonians 5:23-24, Hebrews 10:10-14, 1 John 3:5-9). There comes a point where besetting sins will no longer accost me, because I am walking away from the territory of unrighteousness and the unrighteous elements are left behind in that territory.

 

[Ron Gurley]

All we can do is please God, because favor and godliness has already been provided (2Pet 1:3).

Wrong again.

Believers can most certainly displease God by exercising "free will" against His will....sinning!

2 Peter 1 (NASB)
9 For he who lacks these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins.
10 Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you;
for as long as you PRACTICE these things, you will never stumble;
11 for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you.

Spiritual POSITION: perfect =>SAVED

Spiritual PRACTICE: imperfect=>PROCESS of SANCTIFIFICATION

 

[WordSword]

Q: Does one regenerated and renewed in the Holy Ghost continue walking in the direction of sin?

A: No. 1 John 3:3-7.

As a believer in Christ I have repented from walking in sin's direction and so the old sins no longer have ANY place in my life.

Hi JBF - Thanks for your reply and comments! Thinking we can learn to live without sinning is a concept that I think most believers have at some time or another (usually early in our Christian walk). For me it was the first 10 or 15 years of my now 40 year walk, but now time and teaching has shown me that in our new nature we don't sin ("with the mind I myself serve the principle of God"), but with our old nature we do nothing but sin ("but with the flesh the principle of sin") - Romans 7:25.

We in our new nature ("seed") do not and cannot sin! But I think we should be ever mindful that our walk (sinning and not sinning) does not alter our standing in Christ, which is where the most important part of our faith comes into exercise, in knowing that our salvation cannot be altered. Those who manifest a sinful life have yet to be born-again!

Blessings to you!

 

[WordSword]

All we can do is please God, because favor and godliness has already been provided (2Pet 1:3).

Wrong again.

Believers can most certainly displease God by exercising "free will" against His will....sinning!

It's my understanding that since God knows that the sins and the wrongs are part of the training and teaching, He only finds pleasure in the believer.

 

[JIMINZ]

1) Believers sin after salvation. 1 John 1
2) The old man never dies. Romans 7

1) No they don't continue to sin.
Rom 8:2-4
2) For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3) For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4) That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

2) Those Born Again are living in the Spirit, not the Flesh.

Rom 8:9
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

1Jn 3:5,6
5) And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6) Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.


Rom 8:10
And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

 

[justbyfaith]

The old man does die, unless you want to say it is perpetually being crucified...Romans 6:6.

 

[justbyfaith]

Hi JBF - Thanks for your reply and comments! Thinking we can learn to live without sinning is a concept that I think most believers have at some time or another (usually early in our Christian walk). For me it was the first 10 or 15 years of my now 40 year walk, but now time and teaching has shown me that in our new nature we don't sin ("with the mind I myself serve the principle of God"), but with our old nature we do nothing but sin ("but with the flesh the principle of sin") - Romans 7:25.

We in our new nature ("seed") do not and cannot sin! But I think we should be ever mindful that our walk (sinning and not sinning) does not alter our standing in Christ, which is where the most important part of our faith comes into exercise, in knowing that our salvation cannot be altered. Those who manifest a sinful life have yet to be born-again!

Blessings to you!

 

[WordSword]

The old man does die, unless you want to say it is perpetually being crucified...Romans 6:6.

The crucifixion of our sinful nature (old man) only addresses guilt incurred by it and its ability to influence us to desire its works.

 

[JIMINZ]

The old man does die, unless you want to say it is perpetually being crucified...Romans 6:6.

Christians are.
1) Dead to the Flesh
2) Dead to the Law
3) Dead to Sin

They can Sin no more.

Rom 6:1,2
1) What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2) God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

 

[justbyfaith]

Hi @WordSword,

I don't think you are purposefully teaching gnosticism here; but that is what your specific doctrine amounts to.

In gnosticism, the spirit is all that matters and what we do in the flesh is inconsequential.

This to me, seems to be the same thing as saying I didn't REALLY sin because my "new nature" didn't take part in the action.

I know this doctrine is taught in the church and we often repeat what we hear thinking it is sound because it came from the mouth of a trusted Bible teacher. However, gnosticism is a dangerous heresy that nearly destroyed the early church and appears to be rearing its ugly head today in the form of accepted doctrines in the church. continued from #31.

 

[justbyfaith]

Hi @WordSword,

I don't think you are purposefully teaching gnosticism here; but that is what your specific doctrine amounts to.

In gnosticism, the spirit is all that matters and what we do in the flesh is inconsequential.

This to me, seems to be the same thing as saying I didn't REALLY sin because my "new nature" didn't take part in the action.

I know this doctrine is taught in the church and we often repeat what we hear thinking it is sound because it came from the mouth of a trusted Bible teacher. However, gnosticism is a dangerous heresy that nearly destroyed the early church and appears to be rearing its ugly head today in the form of accepted doctrines in the church. continued from #31.

 

[JIMINZ]

This to me, seems to be the same thing as saying I didn't REALLY sin because my "new nature" didn't take part in the action.

What you are saying is a total misrepresentation, and misunderstanding of what is found, and taught from Scripture.
This belief comes from, an inability to understand where it is you are in Christ.

Aren't you aware, Satan uses counterfeits in order for him to discredit the real thing?

The Gnostics were the counterfeit.

So the true doctrine was discredited in those days, because of the false teaching which came out of it, so the true understanding of where we do stand in Christ would not be accepted by the Church today, thereby leaving her powerless.

 

[justbyfaith]

All we can do is please God, because favor and godliness has already been provided (2Pet 1:3).

Wrong again.

Believers can most certainly displease God by exercising "free will" against His will....sinning!

2 Peter 1 (NASB)
9 For he who lacks these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins.
10 Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you;
for as long as you PRACTICE these things, you will never stumble;
11 for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you.

Spiritual POSITION: perfect =>SAVED

Spiritual PRACTICE: imperfect=>PROCESS of SANCTIFIFICATION

@Ron Gurley,

Do you count yourself as being shortsighted and blind?

Or are you of the kind that actually lives out the Christian faith, not being a hearer of the word only, deceiving your own self, but a doer of the word?

 

[WordSword]

Hi WordSword

I don't think you are purposefully teaching gnosticism here; but that is what your specific doctrine amounts to.

It’s my understanding that Gnosticism is a contemporary name for many early religious heretical systems, with the primary doctrine being that if we merely know ('gnosis') about the Gospel of Christ we are saved. Your right that it’s not my intention to support it, but I think we are not understanding one another, because the Romans 7 passage clearly states that the Apostle refers to both natures being his, and that the phrase "I myself" intends Paul in his new nature, and his "flesh" is in his sinful nature (v 25).

 

[justbyfaith]

What you are saying is a total misrepresentation, and misunderstanding of what is found, and taught from Scripture.
This belief comes from, an inability to understand where it is you are in Christ.

Aren't you aware, Satan uses counterfeits in order for him to discredit the real thing?

The Gnostics were the counterfeit.

So the true doctrine was discredited in those days, because of the false teaching which came out of it, so the true understanding of where we do stand in Christ would not be accepted by the Church today, thereby leaving her powerless.

 

[JIMINZ]

What is it you are attempting to say????????