Communion

[SpiritPsalmist]

see what I mean. Now that ya'll know its a mod the rapid firing of posts stops.

 

[Prosperity]

see what I mean. Now that ya'll know its a mod the rapid firing of posts stops.

Maybe is has to with the fact that you were trying to conceal the fact that you are a moderator. It also may be the fact that you are exercising a privilege that the rest of us can't exercise.

People like to know who they are talking to.

Just my thoughts.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

see what I mean. Now that ya'll know its a mod the rapid firing of posts stops.

Maybe is has to with the fact that you were trying to conceal the fact that you are a moderator. It also may be the fact that you are exercising a privilege that the rest of us can't exercise.

People like to know who they are talking to.

Just my thoughts.

I was not conceiling it LeeS has an aka as Q. I just was not announcing it. I belive Andrew knows and a couple of others. Its just a means of me posting hopefully without people being intimidated. And what priviledge am I exercising that you can't? I still must obey the rules. Any reports that come in are handled as a mod, without preference to whether the person reported is agreeing with me or not.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

OK, I've made it a little more clear. Under the user name Quaffer it also says aka LeeS

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

I'm just posting this for Father Rick. We are on the phone with each other and he wanted to write this but is not near a comp.

per Father Rick and the historic churches Both the bread and the wine become both the body and the blood. (body contains the blood and a small piece of the bread is dropped into the wine) therefore if one takes of just the bread he has recieved both the body and the blood. The same is true of the wine. They recieve both the body and blood by receiving just the wine. Therefore anyone who has a problem w/alcohol recieves just the bread knowing that in the bread they have recieved both the body and blood of Christ.

Any responses to this will post will have to wait for FatherRick to respond

 

[Prosperity]

per Father Rick and the historic churches Both the bread and the wine become both the body and the blood. (body contains the blood and a small piece of the bread is dropped into the wine) therefore if one takes of just the bread he has recieved both the body and the blood. The same is true of the wine. They recieve both the body and blood by receiving just the wine. Therefore anyone who has a problem w/alcohol recieves just the bread knowing that in the bread they have recieved both the body and blood of Christ.

Provide scriptural support please.

 

[Prosperity]

OK, I've made it a little more clear. Under the user name Quaffer it also says aka LeeS

I nevernoticedit before.

I was not conceiling it LeeS has an aka as Q. I just was not announcing it. I belive Andrew knows and a couple of others. Its just a means of me posting hopefully without people being intimidated. And what priviledge am I exercising that you can't? I still must obey the rules. Any reports that come in are handled as a mod, without preference to whether the person reported is agreeing with me or not.

Can I have two aliases too?

 

[psalms 91]

I nevernoticedit before.



Can I have two aliases too?

register under another name and you can

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

I nevernoticedit before.



Can I have two aliases too?

Yes. You just cannot use them to back each other up and appearing as two different people who are agreeing with each other.

 

[Prosperity]

I'll pass.

I would like to get this thread back on point.

 

[Andrew]

I'm just posting this for Father Rick. We are on the phone with each other and he wanted to write this but is not near a comp.

per Father Rick and the historic churches Both the bread and the wine become both the body and the blood. (body contains the blood and a small piece of the bread is dropped into the wine) therefore if one takes of just the bread he has recieved both the body and the blood. The same is true of the wine. They recieve both the body and blood by receiving just the wine. Therefore anyone who has a problem w/alcohol recieves just the bread knowing that in the bread they have recieved both the body and blood of Christ.

Any responses to this will post will have to wait for FatherRick to respond

I'd have to disagree with that cos the blood has to be 'shed' -- without the shedding of blood, there is no remission of sins.

A person with a problem with alcohol can simply take grape juice or Ribena. I've never been to a church where wine was actually administered. All of them just use grape juice or Ribena.

 

[Prosperity]

I'd have to disagree with that cos the blood has to be 'shed' -- without the shedding of blood, there is no remission of sins.

Agreed!

A person with a problem with alcohol can simply take grape juice or Ribena.

Please provide scriptural support.

 

[Prosperity]

Oh please lets not turn this into a debate about law. At least not in this thread. I am having too much fun just seeing how far prosperitys going to take communion.

PJ

By LeeS

You're not being mocked. You're being challenged. Requiring one to DO, is legalism.

The underlined portion of the above quote is mocking. One of the definitions of mocking is to treat with ridicule or contempt; deride.

 

[Father Rick]

Provide scriptural support please.

This comment... especially with the emphasis given... is almost funny. You started this thread with a premise that it must be leavened bread that is taken in communion-- based not on scripture, but on your revelation that since Christ is risen, leavened bread should be used. You have started a discussion without scriptural support, but now demand scriptural support from someone.

As to the reason why it has always been believed/practiced by the sacramental churches that if one receives in either species then one has received both Body and Blood:

1. By definition, a body always contains blood. Scripture says "the life is in the blood". This is just a matter of common sense, so if you believe that the bread becomes His Body, then it automatically would contain His Blood. (unless of course that you believe His Body is dead and contains no life whatsoever-- in which case receiving it would be in vain).

2. In the sacramental churches, a small piece of the bread is always broken off and placed in the cup. Since it literally dissolves in the cup, anyone who drinks from the cup will also consume a small (even if microscopic) piece of the Body as well.

I'll deal a little with the scriptures on leavened/unleavened bread separately.

 

[Prosperity]

This comment... especially with the emphasis given... is almost funny.

I won't flippantly attempt to devalue your post as seem to be doing mine.

You started this thread with a premise that it must be leavened bread that is taken in communion--

I know how I started this thread. I was there when I did it.

...based not on scripture, but on your revelation that since Christ is risen, leavened bread should be used. You have started a discussion without scriptural support, but now demand scriptural support from someone.

Did I use the word demand? I just wanted to know if you had any scriptural support.

I have provided some scriptural support throughout my posts on this thread.

As to the reason why it has always been believed/practiced by the sacramental churches that if one receives in either species then one has received both Body and Blood:

1. By definition, a body always contains blood. Scripture says "the life is in the blood". This is just a matter of common sense,

Kenneth Copeland has a wonderful teaching on the blood, which includes what I'm about to share with you.

A real study of Genesis should reveal to you that when Adam was created he had the Glory of God in his veins. This Glory of God became congealed light (Blood) after Adam sinned. When Adam sinned, God's life left Adam and Adam took on the spiritual nature of his spiritual stepfather, the devil. The Glory of God which previously surged through Adam's veins was perverted by his sin nature and became what we know as blood. Jesus' blood wasn't like Adam's blood, which was contaminated by sin. Jesus was begotten with the blood in His veins. Jesus did not have Adam's sin nature, so He was begotten with blood in his veins that would have appeared the same as man's contaminated blood to anyone caring to make the comparison.

In support of Keneth's teaching I will share this with you. Some years back I was at my family physicians house. His Christian wife showed me an article in a medical journal. The article was written by a hematologist who had hypothesized that blood is congealed light.

Genies 2:17 "...but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."

Adam did eat, but did not die in the sense that he laid down and didn't move around anymore. This death that Adam suffered was separation from God.

Genies 2:25 The man and his wife were both naked, and they felt no shame.

Note in the above verse that Adam and Eve felt no shame in being naked. This is because the were filled and covered with the Glory (light/life) of God. They looked just as Jesus looks now, glowing like the sun.

Genesis 3:6-7
6 "...She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it.
7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves.

Now please note that after sin entered in, the light of God went out because Adam no longer had God's spiritual nature.

It was necessary that Jesus was begotten with blood that appeared like everyone else's because if he hadn't He would never have been crucified and if He hadn't been crucified you couldn't be saved.

1 Corinthians 2:8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

What happen to Jesus red liquid blood. He shed it all for us. When you make a payment, you are separated from that payment which you surrendered to holder of the note/debt. Jesus blood was shed in payment. Now Jesus has the Glory of God surging through his veins.

Hebrews 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

Now according to Kenneth Copeland, the following is what God spoke to Jesus, while Jesus was in hell after His death, that resurrected Jesus from death to life.

Hebrews 1:8--
8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.
13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?

When you get to heaven you'll find that Jesus no longer has blood in his veins, but rather the glory of God, which is what Adam had in his veins before he sinned. This is a point that seems to be lost on most believers except for WOF types and even a lot of WOFer's as well.


So you see this is why I believe that there is an inclusion of one substance in another, specifically the blood and body of Christ are in spiritually seeded in the leavened bread and wine communion elements, when the element are blessed in the name of Jesus. The body and blood of Christ are in the same dimension that our spirit-man and Jesus are in, while the actual bread and wine are in what we know as our physical universe. The blood and body of Jesus have the same relationship to the bread and wine as our spirit-man has to our body. When our flesh dies, our spirit-man, complete with our soul, is released from this physical universe. Likewise, when we consume the blessed bread and wine, in faith, Jesus' blood and body are released into our spirit and flesh. Both our spirit and flesh derive Godly benefits form this release.


As I've already said, "What we call communion is the privilege of taking Communion is part of our inheritance. Through faith, we have the privilege of becoming one with Jesus by the eating of His flesh (leavened bread) and drinking of His blood (wine). This is the result of God's grace. You seem to miss the whole point of communion. It is our opportunity to perfect our oneness in Jesus with the Father so that we might become all that He is and gain access to all that He has. This includes the Father, Holy Ghost, eternal live, divine health, prosperity and all manner of God's blessings."

As far as the unleavened bread goes, Marilyn Hickey has a wonderful teaching about why we are to use leavened bread in communion. Consider the following verses and see to see if you might get revelation on this.

John 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

John 6:48-58
48 I am that bread of life.
49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.
51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?
53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

His Body, then it automatically would contain His Blood. (unless of course that you believe His Body is dead and contains no life whatsoever-- in which case receiving it would be in vain).

You should now understand why I believe the above statement is in error.

If just one, either the bread or the wine would have worked as well, then I think Jesus would have taken just one, unless you think Him vane.

2. In the sacramental churches, a small piece of the bread is always broken off and placed in the cup. Since it literally dissolves in the cup, anyone who drinks from the cup will also consume a small (even if microscopic) piece of the Body as well.

Why not just do it as Jesus instructed and exemplified?

 

[kooolfriend]

A person with a problem with alcohol can simply take grape juice or Ribena. I've never been to a church where wine was actually administered. All of them just use grape juice or Ribena.

Me too, my church uses grape juice and all pentecostal church that I know of, uses grape juice...

I think the more important about communion is not the actual wine or bread that we drink or eat, the most important is that when we partake of that communion, we remember of what Jesus did on the cross for us and that His life is flowing in us...The wine and bread is just a symbolic action, I know of a couple that was urge to take communion by the Spirit and they didn’t have grape juice in hand and take water instead and received their blessing...

 

[Christina M]

Kenneth Copeland has a wonderful teaching on the blood, which includes what I'm about to share with you.

I know, from listening to Kenneth Copeland for over 15 years, that he will NEVER allow alcohol to touch his lips. He has said many times he does communion with grape juice.

 

[Prosperity]

I know, from listening to Kenneth Copeland for over 15 years, that he will NEVER allow alcohol to touch his lips. He has said many times he does communion with grape juice.

I've listened to Kenneth for over 25 years and I can attest that you're statement is correct.

I agree with 99.9% of what I've heard Kenneth teach.

I never indicated that Kenneth uses fermented wine in communion. I was referring to a specific area of communion that Kenneth which was teaching on, which was,

Kenneth Copeland has a wonderful teaching on the blood, which includes what I'm about to share with you.

"A real study of Genesis should reveal to you that when Adam was created he had the Glory of God in his veins. This Glory of God became congealed light (Blood) after Adam sinned. When Adam sinned, God's life left Adam and Adam took on the spiritual nature of his spiritual stepfather, the devil. The Glory of God which previously surged through Adam's veins was perverted by his sin nature and became what we know as blood. Jesus' blood wasn't like Adam's blood, which was contaminated by sin. Jesus was begotten with the blood in His veins. Jesus did not have Adam's sin nature, so He was begotten with blood in his veins that would have appeared the same as man's contaminated blood to anyone caring to make the comparison."

Jesus did use wine, but Kenneth doesn't. This is why I disagree with Kenneth in this area.

I've often found it curious how Kenneth say he preaches the uncompromising word of God, when it appears that he does compromise on the issue of taking wine during communion.

Gregory Dickow is the same way and I financially support both he and Kenneth.

If either of these guys, or some other WOF leaders were to give a scripture base teaching on what we shouldn't take wine during communion, I would be all ears.

 

[Bobber]

Might I suggest a different take on communion? In 1 Corinthians 11 where it speaks of commuinion it speaks of it as the Lords supper....well hearing tapes about his subject through the years I recall many saying to the effect, "You know in that day they took it as a big banquet supper...and then they brought out the bread and the wine..."Well after many years I begain to ask the quesiton....yes they had it as a supper...and that's why they called it the Lords Supper....that's good...but why don't we do it that same way today?? And I got thinking about this after hearing some other teaching on it concerning having it as a supper....where everybody brings something....the world has the term pot luck? Well reading then through the verses about communion something made sense which many wonder

about....what did Paul mean when he stated that if we judge ourselves we will not be judged....Now I know that can have various true meanings....for sure....but in the actual text what was being referred to....I found this interesting......1 Corinthians 11: 21,22 its speaking about people who were coming to the Supper, and not understanding a certain important thing...they didn't want to wait until everyone got there....they were more concerned about filling their stomachs then what the Lords Supper really represented and that is the rich fellowship in the spirit we have between each other....then we hear the verses about if we judge ourselves...we will not be judged....and the chapter ends off what it was speaking about in the actual context....verse 34 states, Wherefore my brethren when you come

together to eat, tarry or wait for one another...And if any man hunger let him eat at home....that you come not together unto condemnation....so the thing people could come under judgement about was walking out of love towards brethren by not being nice and waiting for them....Now after the meal....you have the wine or grapejuice whatever one uses....and I believe they used the one loaf that is not being broken....one loaf....held up before them all....representing that we are one body....but the way many take communion is on a platter with all the bread broken already in pieces....well doesn't that signify division? Well, you take the one loaf hold it before all the people....you declare we are one.....and everyone starts feeling apart of the oneness....Christ is the head and we are the body...and we are one....then

you break the loaf and everyone eats a part of the oneness.....well the gathering of believers I go to now do it this way....im not saying doing it the other way is wrong doctrine or sin or whatever....but I suggest this way is a little more precious....we also know as well...whenever you might go to a pop luck supper at say your work....everybody brings something....what does it create? A feeling of belonging to the group....they begin to feel this meal is us.....we are one and we are sharing something of ourselves....well I do feel doing it this way in church does create a feeling of unity and harmony like the other way doesn't quite do the same....well that's my opinion anyway.... Have A Nice Day....

 

[Prosperity]

I believe they used the one loaf that is not being broken....one loaf....held up before them all....representing that we are one body....

Except that Jesus said that the creed was his flesh/body and the Word says that the breaking representative of Jesus body which is broken for us.

A feeling of belonging to the group....they begin to feel this meal is us.....we are one and we are sharing something of ourselves....well I do feel doing it this way in church does create a feeling of unity and harmony like the other way doesn't quite do the same....

I don't look at communion through my feelings. I look at through the Word. Through faith, we have the privilege of becoming one with Jesus by the eating of His flesh (leavened bread) and drinking of His blood (wine). This is the result of God's grace. You seem to miss the whole point of communion. It is our opportunity to perfect our oneness in Jesus with the Father so that we might become all that He is and gain access to all that He has. This includes the Father, Holy Ghost, eternal live, divine health, prosperity and all manner of God's blessings."


It is Jesus anointing I want, not someone else's good feelings. Feeling good is fine, being happy is great and fellowshipping is wonderful, but not at the expense of the Truth.