Communion

[PastorJoey]

I don't care what you eat or drink. I'm just telling you the reasons why Jesus instructed us to take communion the way He did. Take it up with him.

I think we just entered into the "spin zone".

Prosperity forgive me for having fun at your expense. I am actually just in awe at your approach in all this. YOu are apparently blind to your mannerisms and roughness.

I say this in the love of Christ. I'm not even referring to the doctrine of communion now. Im talking about your approach. Remember:

Proverbs 16:21 KJV
(21) The wise in heart shall be called prudent: and the sweetness of the lips increaseth learning.
Just take a look at some of your past posts. Everybody cant be wrong.
PJ

 

[Prosperity]

Amen.

Being under law simply means being under human self-effort, trusting in one's arm of flesh (credentials, intelligence, status etc)

God's law in the Old Testament was designed so that God might have fellowship with his people. The law required human effort, but the Law itself is not of human effort, but was given by God.

Worshipping God under the New Testament requires human effort.

The Bible groups law, flesh and works, Sinai, death in one category.

And grace, Spirit and faith, Zion, life in another category.

If I say that "Thou shalt use only wine in communion", then what happens is that people will only have the faith to receive the benefit of the communion when they are able to fulfill that law. IOW, their trust is now in their ability to fulfill that law. If for some reason, I can't fulfill that law, then I'm not worthy to receive the benefits.

When we try to keep laws, 2 things happen:

1. Either we become cocky and legalistic becos we deem ourselves able to fulfill it and think we are doing a fine job at keeping it and we insist others follow our standards.... or

2. We become miserable and condemned becos we can't fulfill it, or break it most of the time.

The Pharisees belonged to 1. The prostitutes and tax collectors belonged to 2.

Your whole post is off point. There is nothing legalistic in following Jesus' example and instructions. Jesus instructed you to love your neighbor as yourself. Is this legalistic? There is not difference in concept between the instruction Jesus gave at the last super and when Jesus instructed us to love our neighbors as our we love ourselves.

Guess who Jesus showed grace to?

 

[Andrew]

God's law in the Old Testament was designed so that God might have fellowship with his people. The law required human effort, but the Law itself is not of human effort, but was given by God.

Worshipping God under the New Testament requires human effort.



Your whole post is off point. There is nothing legalistic in following Jesus' example and instructions. Jesus instructed you to love your neighbor as yourself. Is this legalistic? There is not difference in concept between the instruction Jesus gave at the last super and when Jesus instructed us to love our neighbors as our we love ourselves.

Guess who Jesus showed grace to?

Prosperity,

Looks like it's going to take many many more posts to help you understand law and grace, new covenant and old covenant.

It's 1:20am here. Goodnight

 

[Prosperity]

The difference betw the Passover and the Holy Communion is that one is the shadow, the other is the substance.

The purpose and method of the Passover and Communion are both different from each other.

When the Jews took the Passover, it was a lamb they ate, pointing to Christ.

BUT Christ HAS come. He is now the fulfillment of the Passover.

When He took the bread and broke it, He did not say eat this lamb, He said this is MY BODY.

So in that sense, the Holy Communion has superseded the Passover, simply becos the shadow/type gives way to the substance.

And your point is?

 

[LeeS]

The difference betw the Passover and the Holy Communion is that one is the shadow, the other is the substance.

When the Jews took the Passover, it was a lamb they ate, pointing to Christ.

BUT Christ HAS come. He is now the fulfillment of the Passover.

When He took the bread and broke it, He did not say eat this lamb, He said this is MY BODY.

So in that sense, the Holy Communion has superseded the Passover, simply becos the shadow/type gives way to the substance.

No, within the Passover is the partaking of His body and blood. It was not a celebration that became dead with Christs demonstration of it but became life.

Why do we have such a fassination of everything Christ did befor the cross as now being dead. He said "I do not come to abolish the law but to fulfill it" Obviously abolish and fulfill do NOT mean the same thing. At least the didn't to Jesus. Yet the church continues to talk as if it does.

Fulfill means "to carry into effect; to bring to pass as a design" How can something be brought into effect and be dead at the same time? Keeping the law does not save us, it never did.

 

[LeeS]

Sounds as if you'd have a lot of complaints with God if you were under the Old Testament Law.

Your point???

 

[Prosperity]

The difference betw the Passover and the Holy Communion is that one is the shadow, the other is the substance.

The purpose and method of the Passover and Communion are both different from each other.

When the Jews took the Passover, it was a lamb they ate, pointing to Christ.

BUT Christ HAS come. He is now the fulfillment of the Passover.

When He took the bread and broke it, He did not say eat this lamb, He said this is MY BODY.

So in that sense, the Holy Communion has superseded the Passover, simply becos the shadow/type gives way to the substance.

And your point is?

 

[KingZzub]

I can see you've been weaned. No longer on milk but on solid meat.

Guess when Isaac (child of grace/promise) was persecuted by Ishmael (child of law/flesh)? When he was weaned. When he moved from milk to solid food (instructions in grace and righteousness).

Those who are estb in righteousness and grace will always be persecuted by those still under law.

Good analogy: Isaac and Ishmael.

New Covenant Realities. No one believed that I preached that phrase before I ever heard of Kenyon, but the truth is so clear in the Word.

Cheers,
|ZZ|

 

[Prosperity]

I have not missed the point of "communion"

I think you have completely missed the point.

I know what the point of it is but you are saying that we MUST do it exactly as Jesus did and He was partaking in a PASSOVER meal.

Please point out to me where I said the word, "MUST."

Thats not true. What the church calls communion was done within the Passover meal that the church calls the Last Supper. You can find Messianic material on Passover on the internet. I suggest maybe you look it up.

This is nonsense. I don't need to read Messianic material on the intent of Passover. In case you've forgotten, is the Jews were among those who failed to recognize who Christ was. How is you think that they fared any better with understanding the passive, much less communion. The disciples didn't even understand communion until later.

Again not true. Please study the facts from the Jewish viewpoint vs the Gentile church. No one is required to celebrate Passover, then or now.

You study the fact from the Jewish view point. I'll study the Truth of the Word from God's view point.

 

[KingZzub]

Is Prosperity speaking English now?

To sum up the argument, we *must* use alcoholic wine and we *must* use unleavened bread.

Or was it non-alcoholic wine and leavened bread?

Or alcholic wine and unleavened bread?

Or non-alcoholic wine and unleavened bread?

Or beer and cheese?

Or Dr. Pepper and Doritos?

I can't remember...

Cheers,
|ZZ|

 

[Prosperity]

No, within the Passover is the partaking of His body and blood. It was not a celebration that became dead with Christs demonstration of it but became life.

Why do we have such a fassination of everything Christ did befor the cross as now being dead. He said "I do not come to abolish the law but to fulfill it" Obviously abolish and fulfill do NOT mean the same thing. At least the didn't to Jesus. Yet the church continues to talk as if it does.

Fulfill means "to carry into effect; to bring to pass as a design" How can something be brought into effect and be dead at the same time? Keeping the law does not save us, it never did.

[size=+0]You have completely missed it. I won't be responding to again until you say something that is based in the word and is relevant to this issue. It is a waste of my time.[/size]

Ho long did you say you were a WOF type?

 

[LeeS]

[size=+0]You have completely missed it. I won't be responding to again until you say something that is based in the word and is relevant to this issue. It is a waste of my time.[/size]

Ho long did you say you were a WOF type?

Thats ok, that post was not responding to you anyway.

Since when does WOF teach that communion MUST be real wine and leavened bread?

 

[Prosperity]

Are you WOF?

 

[LeeS]

Are you WOF?

Are you?

 

[Prosperity]

The only thing that some, not all, WORers might contend with me over is drinking fermented wine. I believe that they pull in into their WOF belief system from their previously held religious beliefs from previous religions they have practiced.

No valid scriptural case can be made for not drinking fermented wine during communion.

 

[Prosperity]

Are you?

Yes!

Now will you tell me if you are WOF or not.

 

[Prosperity]

what?

The only thing that some, not all, WOFers might contend with me over is my belief that Jesus did not come to "abolish" the law but to "fulfill" it.

If you read my many posts you will see what I believe. I do belong here just as much as you do.

Why did you sned this to me?

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Sorry, it was a goof on my part.

Yes, LeeS adopts much of the WOF doctrine. Meaning, she does not currently attend a WOF church but she does believe a great deal of the teachings.

 

[Prosperity]

Sorry, it was a goof on my part.

Yes, LeeS adopts much of the WOF doctrine. Meaning, she does not currently attend a WOF church but she does believe a great deal of the teachings.

Not an issue to me. I was just trying to find out where shews coming from wiht some of her posts.

How did you ever come up with the alias of Quaffer?

Thanks!

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Not an issue to me. I was just trying to find out where shews coming from wiht some of her posts.

How did you ever come up with the alias of Quaffer?

Thanks!

LeeS is the alias. i try not to debate as Quaffer the mod 'cause it intimidates people. I forgot I'd switched over when I answered I tried to get rid of it before you saw it but alas, my comp was moving too slow.

Quaff means to drink deeply and repeatedly. I drink deeply and repeatedly from the well of LIVING WATER.