Communion

[PastorJoey]

In my opinion, based on the following scriptures and the comments that I've received on this thread, I would conclude that anyone who would attempt to dissuade me from taking communion just as Jesus took it, (leavened bread and wine) or attempt to impute sin to me for doing so is by scriptural definition being legalistic.

I've formed this opinion while participating on this thread.




I'll continue to take communion the way Jesus taught and exemplified.

Prosperity dont go into the "spin zone" again.
We are not attempting to dissuade you or attempting to impute sin to you on this, we are defending our right to take communion as we feel we should as do you. Only after you have landblasted everyone else did we go in defense of ourselves.
PJ

 

[Prosperity]

The burden of proof is on the one making the statements. In your 26 yrs experience in WOF can you not give me just one quote from either of them validating your claims.
PJ

I told you to send and E-mail to KCM. If I happen to come across the information I will gladly post it to you. Until you either send and E-mail or I happen to find the info, you'll just have to take my word for it or believe me to be in error.

The other alternative is that you go study the referenced scriptures in Genesis, and ask God to reveal them to you and meditate on them until you get the same revelation that Kenneth and I did. If God gave it to us, he will give it to you if you have ears to hear.

 

[Prosperity]

Prosperity dont go into the "spin zone" again.
We are not attempting to dissuade you or attempting to impute sin to you on this, we are defending our right to take communion as we feel we should as do you. Only after you have landblasted everyone else did we go in defense of ourselves.
PJ

I didn't realize that you spoke for everyone else here.

I didn't specify who. I simply described the type of individual I'm referring to.

I haven't "landblasted" anyone. I've stated what I believe. I'm not the one making underhanded remarks and accusations.

"spinzone"
"lamdblasted"

These terms bring my character into doubt. You might try addressing me without the personal remarks. I would appreciate it.

 

[Trish1947]

Prosperity, I don't believe that anyone, including myself would be trying to take anything away from you, that you truly believe in. Or cause you to sin. If you feel that it would be a sin for you to not use fermented wine, it would be a sin to you, if your conscious is affected. If you are approaching your answers to us in this vein, then it is you that are mistaken on the motive of our answers. But it is a two way street, you will never conveince everyone that it is the taking of fermented wine, as obediance, that produces the relationship we have with Christ. If it was the wine that produced this relationship, it would deny the new birth of your spirit. If it was taking of communion that produced the relationship, we have through the Spirit, it would be denying the Spirit of Christ that is already in you. It's not communion that produces this relationship, it's the new birth. We take communion, because we already have the relationship in Christ through the new birth. We acknowledge this by the taking of communion, in rememberance, of what we already have been given and have already received.

 

[Bobber]

Ive always believed that taking communion and even water baptism for that matter were meant to act as tigger mechanisms to release the power of God to set us free...we are to envision that the wine or grapejuice is to remind us of our sins being remitted, and the bread that we are In Him the body of Christ....therefore what takes place is an on going release of the resurrection power of the Lord always working through us...water baptism is somewhat the same...whenever even tempted were to take the position that no Mr Devil....the old man was buried in the waters of baptism...and when I

arose out of the water....Im a new man in Christ....God uses images to effect our consciousness and that in turn as we declare and decree our position, releases Gods power....He did the same simple thing with Abraham when he told him to look at all the stars....nothing of power in doing that in and of itself but by connecting the meaning God attached to it...well it caused his spirit to have the capacity to recieve....I don't think these instructions water baptism, or communion were ever given for Gods benefit... they were brought in for our benefit...like I say to help us release the power of God....

 

[Prosperity]

Prosperity, I don't believe that anyone,

I thought PastorJ was speaking for the group? LOL

including myself would be trying to take anything away from you, that you truly believe in.

This is of not importance to me in that I really don't make decisions about communion based on what men say.

Or cause you to sin. If you feel that it would be a sin for you to not use fermented wine, it would be a sin to you, if your conscious is affected.

In at least one way, I agree with you.

If you are approaching your answers to us in this vein, then it is you that are mistaken on the motive of our answers.

I neither know the motive of your answers or care. I do know what you say.

But it is a two way street, you will never conveince everyone that it is the taking of fermented wine, as obediance, that produces the relationship we have with Christ. If it was the wine that produced this relationship, it would deny the new birth of your spirit. If it was taking of communion that produced the relationship, we have through the Spirit, it would be denying the Spirit of Christ that is already in you. It's not communion that produces this relationship, it's the new birth. We take communion, because we already have the relationship in Christ through the new birth. We acknowledge this by takeing of communion, in rememberance of what we already have been given and have already recieved.

I couldn't agree less with you. Jesus was clear in his teaching on communion and how to take communion. He also told us to do communion the way He did. Jesus has already decided the right way to take communion. We just have to decide whether you will obey him or not.

 

[PastorJoey]

Ive always believed that taking communion and even water baptism for that matter were meant to act as tigger mechanisms to release the power of God to set us free...we are to envision that the wine or grapejuice is to remind us of our sins being remitted, and the bread that we are In Him the body of Christ....therefore what takes place is an on going release of the resurrection power of the Lord always working through us...water baptism is somewhat the same...whenever even tempted were to take the position that no Mr Devil....the old man was buried in the waters of baptism...and when I

arose out of the water....Im a new man in Christ....God uses images to effect our consciousness and that in turn as we declare and decree our position, releases Gods power....He did the same simple thing with Abraham when he told him to look at all the stars....nothing of power in doing that in and of itself but by connecting the meaning God attached to it...well it caused his spirit to have the capacity to recieve....I don't think these instructions water baptism, or communion were ever given for Gods benefit... they were brought in for our benefit...like I say to help us release the power of God....

Did you mean "trigger mechanisms"? We already have enough tigger's in the body of Christ!
PJ

 

[Prosperity]

Ive always believed that taking communion and even water baptism for that matter where meant to act as tigger mechanisms to release the power of God to set us free...

I agree whole heatedly.

we are to envision that the wine or grapejuice is to remind us of our sins being remitted, and the bread that we are In Him the body of Christ....therefore what takes place is an on going release of the resurrection power of the Lord always working through us...water baptism is somewhat the same...whenever even tempted were to take the position that no Mr Devil....the old man was buried in the waters of baptism...and when I arose out of the water....Im a new man in Christ....

I believe that this is part of it.

God uses images to effect our consciousness and that in turn as we declare and decree our position, releases Gods power....He did the same simple thing with Abraham when he told him to look at all the stars....nothing of power in doing that in and of itself but by connecting the meaning God attached to it...well it caused his spirit to have the capacity to recieve....I don't think these instructions water baptism, or communion were ever given for Gods benefit... they were brought in for our benefit...like I say to help us release the power of God....

Wow! I have nothing but applause for your post. God does get something out of it. He blesses us and this blesses Him.

 

[Bobber]

I couldn't agree less with you. Jesus was clear in his teaching on communion and how to take communion. He also told us to do communion the way He did. Jesus has already decided the right way to take communion. We just have to decide whether you will obey him or not [Prosperity]

I wonder if the best way of dealing with issues like this among the beloved is when we come up to a stump along the road, not agreeing totally with each other about these things is that we all come to the place of Ephesians 1 and agree we can all meet there...that is we reach a point where we agree to pray for one another that the eyes of each one of our understanding be enlightened and leave it with the Lord...and love one another regardless...

 

[Bobber]

God does get something out of it. He blesses us and this blesses Him.[/color]

Ya I can agree with that Prosperity

 

[Trish1947]

Did you mean "trigger mechanisms"? We already have enough tigger's in the body of Christ!
PJ

ROFL....

I believe there is a triggering mechanism set off when we take communion. The mechanism is the rememberance..nothing like getting your mind off of other things and dwelling on the sacrifice of Christ and what it means, to place you in the the position to receive.

 

[Bobber]

Did you mean "trigger mechanisms"? We already have enough tigger's in the body of Christ!
PJ

Yes that's right...sorry about that...now I feel so embarressed Hey did I spell embarressed right?

 

[KingZzub]

Ive always believed that taking communion and even water baptism for that matter were meant to act as tigger mechanisms to release the power of God to set us free...we are to envision that the wine or grapejuice is to remind us of our sins being remitted, and the bread that we are In Him the body of Christ....therefore what takes place is an on going release of the resurrection power of the Lord always working through us...water baptism is somewhat the same...whenever even tempted were to take the position that no Mr Devil....the old man was buried in the waters of baptism...and when I

arose out of the water....Im a new man in Christ....God uses images to effect our consciousness and that in turn as we declare and decree our position, releases Gods power....He did the same simple thing with Abraham when he told him to look at all the stars....nothing of power in doing that in and of itself but by connecting the meaning God attached to it...well it caused his spirit to have the capacity to recieve....I don't think these instructions water baptism, or communion were ever given for Gods benefit... they were brought in for our benefit...like I say to help us release the power of God....

Actually baptism only works if you are baptised in the river Jordan. Jesus was baptised in the Jordan, and no other river is mentioned within the holy gospels. The Greek word for Jordan means Jordan, and Jesus was baptised in the Jordan to fulfill righteousness. Quite simply, if you are not baptised in the Jordan you are not righteous at all. According to Mark 16 therefore, you are damned. Sorry, but you do it Jesus and my way and not at all.

If my wonderful Scriptural argument does not persuade you, there is a Kenneth Copeland tape that if you play it backwards, Ken is clearly heard to say "Paul is dead... 28 IF... baptise in Jordan or burn in hell" three times.

Cheers,
|ZZ|

 

[PastorJoey]

ROFL....

I believe there is a triggering mechanism set off when we take communion. The mechanism is the rememberance..nothing like getting your mind off of other things and dwelling on the sacrifice of Christ and what it means, to place you in the the position to receive.

Amen!

 

[PastorJoey]

Actually baptism only works if you are baptised in the river Jordan. Jesus was baptised in the Jordan, and no other river is mentioned within the holy gospels. The Greek word for Jordan means Jordan, and Jesus was baptised in the Jordan to fulfill righteousness. Quite simply, if you are not baptised in the Jordan you are not righteous at all. According to Mark 16 therefore, you are damned. Sorry, but you do it Jesus and my way and not at all.

If my wonderful Scriptural argument does not persuade you, there is a Kenneth Copeland tape that if you play it backwards, Ken is clearly heard to say "Paul is dead... 28 IF... baptise in Jordan or burn in hell" three times.

Cheers,
|ZZ|

I will add to that heavy revvy Zzub and say that if the Holy Spirit doesnt descend on us when baptised as He did on Jesus then we must be missing somewhere. Mabye we mwent down backward and it was supposed to be forward or straight down?
PJ

 

[PastorJoey]

http://www.christianforums.com/t2495792-what-did-kenyon-hagin-believe-about-the-heart-spirit.html

 

[KingZzub]

It was because you were not baptised by John the Baptist.

I actually was baptised by John the Baptist. Seriously, his name was John Young and he was a Baptist deacon.

I was also subject to the Holy Spirit descending on me (not in any physical form though!) and within 2 weeks I was no longer Ben the Baptist and given the right boot of fellowship...

Cheers,
|ZZ|

 

[Father Rick]

I couldn't agree less with you. Jesus was clear in his teaching on communion and how to take communion. He also told us to do communion the way He did. Jesus has already decided the right way to take communion. We just have to decide whether you will obey him or not.

Ok... this is rather funny...

You simultaneously insist that we are to take communion the way Jesus did-- yet say one should use leavened bread, while scripture is quite clear is NOT what Jesus did.

[font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Matthew 26 Read This Chapter[/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]26:17 Now R993 on the first day of Unleavened R994 Bread the disciples came to Jesus and asked, "Where do You want us to prepare for You to eat the Passover?" [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]26:18 And He said, "Go into the city to a R995 certain man, and say to him, `The Teacher says, "My R996 time is near; I am to keep the Passover at your house with My disciples.""' [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]26:19 The disciples did as Jesus had directed them; and they prepared the Passover. [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]26:20 Now R997 when evening came, Jesus was reclining at the table with the twelve disciples. [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]26:21 As they were eating, He said, "Truly R998 I say to you that one of you will betray Me." [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]26:22 Being deeply grieved, they each F559 one began to say to Him, "Surely not I, Lord?" [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]26:23 And He answered, "He R999 who dipped his hand with Me in the bowl is the one who will betray Me. [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]26:24 "The Son of Man is to go, just R1000 as it is written of Him; but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It R1001 would have been good for F560 that man if he had not been born." [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]26:25 And Judas, R1002 who was betraying Him, said, "Surely it is not I, Rabbi?" R1003 Jesus said to him, "You R1004 have said it yourself." [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]26:26 While R1005 they were eating, Jesus took some bread, and after R1006 F561 a blessing, He broke it and gave it to the disciples, and said, "Take, eat; this is My body." [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]26:27 And when He had taken a cup and given thanks, He gave it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you; [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]26:28 for this R1007 is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many R1008 for forgiveness of sins. [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]26:29 "But I say to you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in My Father's kingdom." [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]26:30 After R1009 singing a hymn, they went out to the R1010 Mount of Olives. [/font]

This passage makes it PERFECTLY clear that it was the Passover meal they were eating when Christ institued the Last Supper/Communion/Eucharist.

[font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Mark 14 Read This Chapter[/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]14:12 On R486 the first day of Unleavened R487 Bread, when the F248 Passover lamb was being sacrificed, R488 His disciples said to Him, "Where do You want us to go and prepare for You to eat the Passover?" [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]14:13 And He sent two of His disciples and said to them, "Go into the city, and a man will meet you carrying a pitcher of water; follow him; [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]14:14 and wherever he enters, say to the owner of the house, `The Teacher says, "Where is My guest R489 room in which I may eat the Passover with My disciples?"' [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]14:15 "And he himself will show you a large upper room furnished and ready; prepare for us there." [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]14:16 The disciples went out and came to the city, and found it just as He had told them; and they prepared the Passover. [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]14:17 When R490 it was evening He came with the twelve. [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]14:18 As they were reclining at the table and eating, Jesus said, "Truly I say to you that one of you will betray F249 Me--one F250 who is eating with Me." [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]14:19 They began to be grieved and to say to Him one by one, "Surely not I?" [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]14:20 And He said to them, "It is one of the twelve, one F251 who dips with Me in the bowl. [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]14:21 "For the Son of Man is to go just as it is written of Him; but woe to that man by F252 whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good for F253 that man if he had not been born." [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]14:22 While R491 they were eating, He took some bread, and after F254 a blessing R492 He broke it, and gave it to them, and said, "Take it; this is My body." [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]14:23 And when He had taken a cup and given thanks, He gave it to them, and they all drank from it. [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]14:24 And He said to them, "This is My blood R493 of the covenant, R494 which is poured out for many. [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]14:25 "Truly I say to you, I will never again drink of the fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new in the kingdom of God." [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]14:26 After R495 singing a hymn, they went out to the R496 Mount of Olives.[/font][/font]

Mark, retelling the same story, makes it clear (for any who may not know) that Passover is held the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread (which is why unleavened bread is always used).

[font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Luke 22 Read This Chapter[/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]22:1 Now R906 the Feast of Unleavened Bread, which is called the Passover, R907 was approaching. [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]22:2 The chief priests and the scribes were R908 seeking how they might put Him to death; for they were afraid of the people. [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]22:3 And R909 Satan R910 entered into Judas who was called Iscariot, belonging F476 to the number of the twelve. [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]22:4 And he went away and discussed with the chief priests and officers R911 how he might betray Him to them. [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]22:5 They were glad and agreed to give him money. [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]22:6 So he consented, and began seeking a good opportunity to betray Him to them apart F477 from the crowd. [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]22:7 Then R912 came the first day of Unleavened Bread on which the R913 Passover lamb had to be sacrificed. [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]22:8 And Jesus sent Peter R914 and John, saying, "Go and prepare the Passover for us, so that we may eat it." [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]22:9 They said to Him, "Where do You want us to prepare it?" [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]22:10 And He said to them, "When you have entered the city, a man will meet you carrying a pitcher of water; follow him into the house that he enters. [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]22:11 "And you shall say to the owner of the house, `The Teacher says to you, "Where is the guest room in which I may eat the Passover with My disciples?"' [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]22:12 "And he will show you a large, furnished upper room; prepare it there." [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]22:13 And they left and found everything just as He had told them; and they prepared the Passover. [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]22:14 When R915 the hour had come, He reclined at the table, and the R916 apostles with Him. [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]22:15 And He said to them, "I have earnestly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer; [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]22:16 for I say to you, I shall never again eat it until R917 it is fulfilled in the kingdom of God." [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]22:17 And R918 when He had taken a cup and given R919 thanks, He said, "Take this and share it among yourselves; [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]22:18 for I R920 say to you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine from now on until the kingdom of God comes." [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]22:19 And when He had taken some bread and given R921 thanks, He broke it and gave it to them, saying, "This is My body which is given for you; do this in remembrance of Me." [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]22:20 And in the same way He took the cup after they had eaten, saying, "This cup which is poured R922 out for you is the new R923 covenant in My blood. [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]22:21 "But R924 behold, the hand of the one betraying Me is with Mine F478 on the table. [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]22:22 "For indeed, the Son of Man is going as R925 it has been determined; but woe to that man by whom He is betrayed!" [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]22:23 And they began to discuss among themselves which one of them it might be who was going to do this thing. [/font]

Luke is even more clear than the previous 2 accounts that it the meal Jesus celebrated with His disciples was part of both the Feast of Unleavened Bread and Passover.

The word "Unleavened" used here is

azumoß[font=Arial, Helvetica]from (1) (as a negative particle) and (2219)[/font][font=Arial, Helvetica]Transliterated Word[/font][font=Arial, Helvetica]TDNT Entry[/font][font=Arial, Helvetica]Azumos[/font][font=Arial, Helvetica]2:902,302[/font][font=Arial, Helvetica]Phonetic Spelling[/font][font=Arial, Helvetica]Parts of Speech[/font][font=Arial, Helvetica]ad'-zoo-mos [/font][font=Arial, Helvetica]Adjective [/font][font=Arial, Helvetica]Definition[/font][font=Arial, Helvetica]

1. unfermented, free from leaven or yeast
   1. of the unleavened loaves used in the paschal feast of the Jews
   2. metaph. free from faults or the "leaven of iniquity"

[/font]

The word "bread" used here EACH TIME in ALL THREE gospel passages is a word for a specific type of bread

artoß[font=Arial, Helvetica]from (142)[/font][font=Arial, Helvetica]Transliterated Word[/font][font=Arial, Helvetica]TDNT Entry[/font][font=Arial, Helvetica]Artos[/font][font=Arial, Helvetica]1:477,80[/font][font=Arial, Helvetica]Phonetic Spelling[/font][font=Arial, Helvetica]Parts of Speech[/font][font=Arial, Helvetica]ar'-tos [/font][font=Arial, Helvetica]Noun Masculine [/font][font=Arial, Helvetica]Definition[/font][font=Arial, Helvetica]

1. food composed of flour mixed with water and baked
   1. the Israelites made it in the form of an oblong or round cake, as thick as one's thumb, and as large as a plate or platter hence it was not to be cut but broken
   2. loaves were consecrated to the Lord
   3. of the bread used at the love-feasts and at the Lord's Table
2. food of any kind

[/font]

The only other recording of these events is in 1 Corinthians 11

[font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]1 Corinthians 11 Read This Chapter[/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]11:23 For I R440 received from the Lord that which I also delivered to you, that the R441 Lord Jesus in the night in which He was betrayed took bread; [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]11:24 and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, "This is My body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of Me." [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]11:25 In the same way He took the R442 cup also after supper, saying, "This cup is the new R443 covenant in My blood; do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me." [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]11:26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until R444 He comes. [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]11:27 Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner, shall be guilty R445 of the body and the blood of the Lord. [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]11:28 But a man must examine R446 himself, and in so doing he is to eat of the bread and drink of the cup. [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]11:29 For he who eats and drinks, eats and drinks judgment to himself if he does not judge the body rightly. [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]11:30 For this reason many among you are weak and sick, and a number sleep. R447 F125 [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]11:31 But if we judged ourselves rightly, we would not be judged. [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]11:32 But when we are judged, we are disciplined R448 by the Lord so that we will not be condemned along with the R449 world. [/font]

Here Paul again uses exactly the same word for bread, simply re-iterating that it was unleavened bread used.





Now, all that to get to this... you are insisting that it is not receiving communion, but that one MUST receive it in the same way that Christ instructed-- yet your very premise is contrary to what is actually stated in scripture...


And I didn't even get into the fact that in all 3 gospels, as well as Corinthians, it is clear that it was part of a full meal, not just bread and wine.

 

[Christina M]

Actually baptism only works if you are baptised in the river Jordan. Jesus was baptised in the Jordan, and no other river is mentioned within the holy gospels. The Greek word for Jordan means Jordan, and Jesus was baptised in the Jordan to fulfill righteousness. Quite simply, if you are not baptised in the Jordan you are not righteous at all. According to Mark 16 therefore, you are damned. Sorry, but you do it Jesus and my way and not at all.

If my wonderful Scriptural argument does not persuade you, there is a Kenneth Copeland tape that if you play it backwards, Ken is clearly heard to say "Paul is dead... 28 IF... baptise in Jordan or burn in hell" three times.

Cheers,
|ZZ|

Oh yes, now I guess none of us love the Lord 'enough' and are in sin - according to Prosperity's way of thinking - since I was baptised in the Gulf of Mexico and others in a baptismal font in their church.... and since Jesus Himself did not do it for us...... We all did it wrong. us all.

 

[Trish1947]

Oh yes, now I guess none of us love the Lord 'enough' and are in sin - according to Prosperity's way of thinking - since I was baptised in the Gulf of Mexico and others in a baptismal font in their church.... and since Jesus Himself did not do it for us...... We all did it wrong. us all.

Baptismal for me.. Owens River in Calif. for my children..off the Gulf of Florida for my grandchildren...Gee were all a mess. LOL.