Communion

[PastorJoey]

Baptismal for me.. Owens River in Calif. for my children..off the Gulf of Florida for my grandchildren...Gee were all a mess. LOL.

Horse trough for me.

 

[Trish1947]

Horse trough for me.

Are you serious? Just a lone cowboy stuck in the desert
and no water, huh?

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

mod hat

on​

OK all...lets get back on track. Lets not poke fun at others expense.​

 

[Prosperity]

You simultaneously insist that we are to take communion the way Jesus did-- yet say one should use leavened bread, while scripture is quite clear is NOT what Jesus did.

You are once again putting words into my mouth. I did not use the word. "...insist..." I've already presented excerpts from apologetics, scripture and valid extrapolation of scripture to support that the bread was leavened. You have simply elected to believe otherwise. You can get on-line and find plenty of arguments that swing both ways, if arguing is what you want to do.

This passage makes it PERFECTLY clear that it was the Passover meal they were eating when Christ institued the Last Supper/Communion/Eucharist.

Jesus was not administering over Passover when he offered the first communion. He was teaching his decuples what the Passover was a fore runner of, which is communion.

Passover is Old Covenant. Communion is New Testament. Different elements, different procedure, different purpose and different results.

It was the days of unleavened bread according to Jewish custom, however Jesus was the Passover Lamb during this year and for all time. It was the time to introduce Jesus' followers to what the Passover was the forerunner of, which was communion. Passover was instituted under the law, while communion was instituted under grace.

The disciples may or may not have celebrated Passover prior to Jesus introducing them to communion. This is a non issue.

And I didn't even get into the fact that in all 3 gospels, as well as Corinthians, it is clear that it was part of a full meal, not just bread and wine.

Jesus blessed the bread and the wine. The bread was His body, the wine was His blood. I don't recall Him assigning the rest of the meal any significance.

By the way, just to save you some work, I'm not going to go look up a couple of hundred Bible verses, most of which are unrelated or out of context, just to answer your post. Like I said, I'm just extending you a courtesy which will hopefully stop you from wasting you time.

 

[Prosperity]

Oh yes, now I guess none of us love the Lord 'enough' and are in sin - according to Prosperity's way of thinking - since I was baptised in the Gulf of Mexico and others in a baptismal font in their church.... and since Jesus Himself did not do it for us...... We all did it wrong. us all.

You have said!

 

[Prosperity]

Ya I can agree with that Prosperity

Thank you for our agreement.

It would seem that we both have some commonly held views in this area.

Bless you Brother.

 

[Christina M]

Baptismal for me.. Owens River in Calif. for my children..off the Gulf of Florida for my grandchildren...Gee were all a mess. LOL.

NO! We're not a mess, Trish! God loves us soooooooooooooo much! That's why He looks with JOY and PRIDE and beams with HAPPINESS when He sees us remembering Him in communion! Be it with crackers, matzo, tortillas or bread; be it with kool-aid, grape juice, beer or wine! Be it in a church, at home, on the seashore or in a tent...alone or in a crowd.

 

[Andrew]

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[SpiritPsalmist]

Mod Hat​

Now several of you are dissing me by ignoring my mod hat. I asked politely that you stay on track w/the OP and not poke fun at the expense of others and I seem to be being ignored.

Ya'll need a break.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

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Mod Hat​

​

CF has rules in order for all posters to enjoy the benefits of posting. It is unfair to the OP that his thread is closed due to the few who choose to not abide by the rules. Therefore, if you are unable and/or unwilling to post intelligently, as the adults that you claim you are then you are requested to not post in this thread any longer. You have said enough and the sarcasism will not be tolerated. ​

​

Play nice or you don't get to play at all.​

 

[Prosperity]

Jesus didn't say that the bread and wine simply represented His body and blood, He said they were His body and blood. The only way that this could be true is if His statement were made in the same context as when the Bible states that man is a spirit. Your physical body is not a spirit but the real you, which is your spirit, emanates from God and cohabitates the same space as your physical body until your body dies. In this way, perhaps the body and blood of Jesus, which exists in the spiritual world, emanates from God while cohabitating in the same space as the bread and wine until it is released by your faith through your obedience to Jesus eating it as Jesus instructed. Perhaps when you bless the bread and wine, in the Name of Jesus, it charges the elements with His body and blood is a spiritual sense as you are a spirit. Is this the reason that we should bless the elements. Consider the following scriptures:

Matthew 26:26-28
19 And the disciples did as Jesus had appointed them; and they made ready the passover.
26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.
27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Mark 14:22-25
22 And as they did eat, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and brake it, and gave to them, and said, Take, eat: this is my body.
23 And he took the cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them: and they all drank of it.
24 And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many.
25 Verily I say unto you, I will drink no more of the fruit of the vine, until that day that I drink it new in the kingdom of God.

The Greek word for "leaven" is zume

The Greek for what we read as "unleavened bread" is azumos which is translated more properly as "unleavened" with out the word "bread."

When an author wishes to be specific about the type of "bread" in any incident, he uses azumos. That is, the emphasis is on "unleavened", and not on bread, e.g., I Corinthians 5:8.

The "bread" used at the Last Supper is the more generic Greek artos Hebrew lechem. In fact, Psalm 41:9 which describes a normal meal is used as a prophecy of this supper.

The conclusion drawn from these scriptures is that the last Supper was just that, a normal meal served with leavened bread.

 

[Trish1947]

Prosperity..... God while cohabitating in the same space as the bread and wine until it is released by your faith through your obedience to Jesus eating it as Jesus instructed. Perhaps when you bless the bread and wine, in the Name of Jesus, it charges the elements with His body and blood is a spiritual sense as you are a spirit. Is this the reason that we should bless the elements. Consider the following scriptures:

Prosperity, this is still alot like transubstaniation, not in the natural since that the wine actually becomes the blood of Jesus, but in the spirit world actually becomes the blood of Jesus. Yet you say you don't believe in transubstaniation.

 

[Christina M]

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Mod Hat​

CF has rules in order for all posters to enjoy the benefits of posting. It is unfair to the OP that his thread is closed due to the few who choose to not abide by the rules. Therefore, if you are unable and/or unwilling to post intelligently, as the adults that you claim you are then you are requested to not post in this thread any longer. You have said enough and the sarcasism will not be tolerated. ​

Play nice or you don't get to play at all.

It would be nice if the OP would stop pushing his legalism. He is leading people astray. That is serious.

 

[Prosperity]

Prosperity, this is still alot like transubstaniation, not in the natural since that the wine actually becomes the blood of Jesus, but in the spirit world actually becomes the blood of Jesus. Yet you say you don't believe in transubstaniation.

I've been as clear and straight forward as I know how to be with you about what I believe. Maybe you can try to hear what I'm saying rather than trying to put a label to it.

 

[Prosperity]

It would be nice if the OP would stop pushing his legalism. He is leading people astray. That is serious.

I'm not leading anyone anywhere. I'm just telling what I see in scripture.
I have heard several WOF preachers (Not big time preachers) say clearly that Jesus drank wine. There is no real argument among WOF leaders about that fact. The issue is what to do with the legalistic nature of many of the followers of their teaching. It is like the Baptists trying to deal with speaking in tongues.

May things that Hagin first taught were rejected by most spirit filled denominations and still are. It does not make him wrong because he can support what he says with scripture.

I can support what I'm saying with scripture. Jesus drake wine. He never got drunk. He never sinned. Many spirit filled people think that Jesus would have sinned if he drank wine. This is legalism. Jesus renounced this thinking. When speaking to the legal scholars of his time on this issue Jesus said:

Matthew 11:18-19
18 For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, He hath a devil.
19 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.

Luke 7:33-34
33 For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine; and ye say, He hath a devil.
34 The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners!

This is about as clear as Jesus can make it, concerning the wine issue.

Maybe the question should be, "Why did Jesus choose wine as one of the elements of communion. I've been meditating on this one for some time.


I would appreciate all on point answers based in scripture on this topic.

 

[Trish1947]

I've been as clear and straight forward as I know how to be with you about what I believe. Maybe you can try to hear what I'm saying rather than trying to put a label to it.

I believe you have been straight forward, and even though I have read it..title or no title placed on it..I would still have to ask...is it scripturaly understood correctly.
I don't believe taking communion produces some sort of transformation of the product used to take that communion.

 

[Prosperity]

Communion is a subject that is just now being really noticed by the WOF community at large. I know there has been some teaching on it and we take it occationally at Church. It is a much larger issue than most have ever suspected. Gregory Dickow (who doesn't endorse drinking wine) has a pretty good teaching on it. Marylyn Hicky also has some great teaching on it. We have missed a lot by reducing communion down to a do-as-you-want-to-ceremony. There is tremendous power in communion.

One thing certain, I've shared my heart and the Word, as I understand it, openly and uncompromisingly with those on this thread. Some have the love of Jesus, in that whether they agree of disagree, they love me. Others simply want to judge me and not a judgement based on scripture, but rather their emotional attitudes concerning this subject.

Have a nice day

 

[Prosperity]

First of all I love Kenneth Hagin and the WOF leaders. The following is the Rhema Bible Training Center's Statement of Faith. It talks about the new birth, being filled with the Holy Ghost, Water Baptism and the gifts of the spirit. These are highlighted areas in the WOF faith because they are the cornerstones of how God blesses and empowers His children. I find it interesting that communion is not even mentioned, even though Jesus underscores it as the way to ever increase our oneness with Him. Let me be clear, I'm not knocking Kenneth Hagin. I believe that Kenneth Hagin preached in those areas that God told him to preach in. Kenneth Hagin Sr. said the God told him to preach on faith, so that is what he did. I believe that communion is also an act of faith that brings results. Kenneth Hagin gave some pretty detailed instruction on how to build our faith, so why do we find it hard to accept that Jesus also gave some pretty explicit instruction on how to exercise our faith in communion?
_________________________

Tenants of Faith from Rhema

We Believe....
THE SCRIPTURES - The Bible is the inspired Word of God, the product of holy men of old who spoke and wrote as they were moved by the Holy Spirit. The New Covenant, as recorded in the New Testament, we accept as our infallible guide in matters pertaining to conduct and doctrine (2 Tim. 3:16; 1 Thess. 2:13; 2 Peter 1:21).

We Believe....
THE GODHEAD - Our God is one, but manifested in three Persons - the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, being coequal (Deut. 6:4;Phil. 2:6). God the Father is greater than all; the Sender of the Word (Logos) and the Begetter (John 14:28; John 16:28; John 1:14). The Son is the Word flesh-covered, the One Begotten, and has existed with the Father from the beginning (John 1:1; John 1:18; John 1:14). The Holy Spirit proceeds forth from both the Father and the Son and is eternal (John 14:16;John 15:26).

We Believe....
MAN, HIS FALL AND REDEMPTION - Man is a created being, made in the likeness and image of God, but through Adam's transgression and fall, sin came into the world. The Bible says "...all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God," and "...There is none righteous, no, not one." (Rom. 3:10; 3:23). Jesus Christ, the Son of God, was manifested to undo the works of the devil and gave His life and shed His blood to redeem and restore man back to God (Rom. 5:14; 1 John 3:8).
Salvation is the gift of God to man, separate from works and the Law, and is made operative by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, producing works acceptable to God (Eph. 2:8-10).

We Believe....
ETERNAL LIFE AND THE NEW BIRTH - Man's first step toward salvation is godly sorrow that worketh repentance. The New Birth is necessary to all men, and when experienced, produces eternal life (2 Cor. 7:10; John 3:3-5; 1 John 5:12).

We Believe....
WATER BAPTISM - Baptism in water is by immersion, is a direct commandment of our Lord, and is for believers only. The ordinance is a symbol of the Christian's identification with Christ in His death, burial, and resurrection (Matt. 28:19; Rom. 6:4; Col. 2:12; Acts 8:36-39).
The following recommendation regarding the water baptismal formula is adopted; to wit: "On the confession of your faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, and by His authority, I baptize you in the Name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost. Amen."

We Believe....
BAPTISM IN THE HOLY GHOST - The Baptism in the Holy Ghost and fire is a gift from God as promised by the Lord Jesus Christ to all believers in this dispensation and is received subsequent to the new birth. This experience is accompanied by the initial evidence of speaking in other tongues as the Holy Spirit Himself gives utterance (Matt. 3:11; John 14:16,17; Acts 1:8; Acts 2:38,39; Acts 19:1-7; Acts 2:1-4).

We Believe....
SANCTIFICATION - The Bible teaches that without holiness no man can see the Lord. We believe in the Doctrine of Sanctification as a definite, yet progressive work of grace, commencing at the time of regeneration and continuing until the consummation of salvation at Christ's return (Heb. 12:14; 1 Thess. 5:23; 2 Peter 3:18; 2 Cor. 3:18; Phil. 3:12-14; 1 Cor. 1:30).

We Believe....
DIVINE HEALING - Healing is for the physical ills of the human body and is wrought by the power of God through the prayer of faith, and by the laying on of hands. It is provided for in the atonement of Christ, and is the privilege of every member of the Church today (James 5:14,15; Mark 16:18; Isa. 53:4,5; Matt. 8:17; 1 Peter 2:24).

We Believe....
RESURRECTION OF THE JUST AND THE RETURN OF OUR LORD - The angels said to Jesus' disciples, "...This same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven." His coming is imminent. When He comes, "...The dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air..." (Acts 1:11; 1 Thess. 4:16,17).
Following the Tribulation, He shall return to earth as King of kings, and Lord of lords, and together with His saints, who shall be kings and priests, He shall reign a thousand years (Rev. 5:10;20:6).

We Believe....
HELL AND ETERNAL RETRIBUTION - The one who physically dies in his sins without accepting Christ is hopelessly and eternally lost in the lake of fire and, therefore, has no further opportunity of hearing the Gospel or repenting. The lake of fire is literal. The terms "eternal" and "everlasting," used in describing the duration of the punishment of the damned in the lake of fire, carry the same thought and meaning of endless existence as used in denoting the duration of joy and ecstasy of saints in the Presence of God (Heb. 9:27; Rev. 19:20).

 

[Prosperity]

I believe you have been straight forward, and even though I have read it..title or no title placed on it..I would still have to ask...is it scripturaly understood correctly.
I don't believe taking communion produces some sort of transformation of the product used to take that communion.

I never said that communion produces some sort of transformation of the product used to take that communion. Not only didn't I say this, but I took great pains to explain the difference between Transubstantiation and my thoughts on the subject. It is closer to Consubstantiation, but this still doesn't define my thinking well.

The short version of what I said is that the anointing of God is seeded on and in the elements when you bless them in faith.

 

[PastorJoey]

I never said that communion produces some sort of transformation of the product used to take that communion. Not only didn't I say this, but I took great pains to explain the difference between Transubstantiation and my thoughts on the subject. It is closer to Consubstantiation, but this still doesn't define my thinking well.

The short version of what I said is that the anointing of God is seeded on and in the elements when you bless them in faith.

I agree that the elements are anointed, but this is not the position you have taken previously. YOu said that the elements are not symbolic but literally becomes the body and blood of Jesus. Transmutation, constipation whatever. This is what I mean by "spin"!
PJ