Communion Bread

[Thekla]

And then there's always this reference from St. Paul:

1 Corinthians 5: 7 Cleanse out the old leaven that you may be a new lump, as you really are unleavened. For Christ, our paschal lamb, has been sacrificed. 8 Let us, therefore, celebrate the festival, not with the old leaven, the leaven of malice and evil, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

This source might be of interest as well:


Was Jesus’ Last Supper a Seder? – Biblical Archaeology Society

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

This source might be of interest as well:


Was Jesus’ Last Supper a Seder? – Biblical Archaeology Society

Reading that article. Very well done.

God be gracious to me a sinner.

 

[JacktheCatholic]

You aren't actually saying that you have the only way to Heaven, are you; meaning if I choose to follow a different Theology than you, I will not go to Heaven?

Of course not. It is taught that what I stated is the true and only way to understand the Eucharist (see previous source.) Getting to Heaven is something that no man on Earth can decide, for God alone judges us. That is not to say that we cannot find guidance by the Paraclete, through God's church (the pillar of Truth), that some are indeed in Heaven. Only, that we do not know who ends out in Hell.

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

The last supper does not describe a seder meal.

Christ was in the grave when the sedar meal was served.

I remember being taught that The Church of Rome didn't start using unleavened bread until the 7-800's. Can anybody confirm that?

Christianity 101 is that we all used leavened bread from the beginning. And as Thekla said the problem was only emblematic of the deeper issues.

God be gracious to me a sinner.

The debate over unleavened/leavened and the more basic debate over Passover seder or not goes back to local customs in Egypt, Syria, Cappadocia, North Africa, and Rome as far back as we can tell. I don't believe Rome began mandating the sole use of unleavened bread within its patriarchy until the Carolingian era, but I think from what we can tell the practice varied from region to region from very early on. I can't be positive about this, but I'll try to look it up sometime soon. I suspect Paul Bradshaw will have something to say about it.

As to the question of whether the meal Jesus ate was a Passover seder, I think it's very hard to tell. The Synoptic Gospels and John present conflicting pictures, and there's also the possibility that Jesus celebrated a final farewell meal with his disciples on the evening of preparation as a Passover seder knowing he wouldn't be able to the next day. The depicting in Mark seems to fit with what we know of the Passover liturgy, but the chronology is muddled.

For serious questers, I would recommend John P. Meier, A Marginal Jew, vol. 1, pp. 386-401 (ch 11 section 2.B) and Joachim Jeremias' The Eucharistic Words of Jesus (especially the first third). I recommend them both because Meier comes to a negative conclusion whereas Jeremias is quite certain that the Last Supper was a Passover seder.

 

[narnia59]

It's not a matter of DOGMA and there is no 'set' catechism of The Orthodox Church as you may already know. I do not hold any grudge or malice or anything like that of those who believes otherwise. Just that I certainly do not hold that opinion.

Then I think it would be a good idea to express more clearly that is it your opinion, not the teaching of the Orthodox church that the meal Christ eats with his apostles is not the seder meal.

And no, it is not dogma, which is why the Eastern Catholic churches in communion with Rome can use leavened bread, and why at least one church in the EO communion uses unleavened bread (the Armenians I think?) and the Maronites in the OO do as well I believe.

I've heard them, I find them rather impossible to believe.

Yet it is possible to believe that the synoptic Gospels are in error that the meal the disciples were dispatched to prepare was the Passover?

What I am certain of, is that John makes a point of ensuring the theological understanding that Christ died at the same hour that the lambs were slain for the Jewish Passover meal.

He does. I am not unaware of the theological implications of the lambs being slaughtered while Christ is on the cross. I am also very aware of theological implications of the Eucharist (the eating of the true Passover Lamb) as being the fulfillment of the seder meal (the eating of the Mosaic Passover lamb). I do not feel the need to sacrifice one for the other.

I don't think the synoptic Gospels are in error, but none of them are definitive that the meal in question was a sedar. They're not described as standing, staff in hand... etc.


While at the same time John makes an unambiguous definitive statement.

That it was the day of preparation.

They are quite definitive that the meal is the Passover meal and not ambiguous at all. Read the ECF quotes I provided and how they knew it was the Passover supper. Read the texts themselves. Luke 22 for example:

7 Then came the day of Unleavened Bread, on which the passover lamb had to be sacrificed. 8 So Jesus sent Peter and John, saying, "Go and prepare the passover for us, that we may eat it." 9 They said to him, "Where will you have us prepare it?" 10 He said to them, "Behold, when you have entered the city, a man carrying a jar of water will meet you; follow him into the house which he enters, 11 and tell the householder, 'The Teacher says to you, Where is the guest room, where I am to eat the passover with my disciples?' 12 And he will show you a large upper room furnished; there make ready." 13 And they went, and found it as he had told them; and they prepared the passover. 14 And when the hour came, he sat at table, and the apostles with him. 15 And he said to them, "I have earnestly desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer

And study up please. The Jews do not eat the seder meal standing up with staff in hand. They eat it in a reclined position (just as noted in the Gospels) to celebrate their freedom.

Now couple this with the history of all of us using leavened bread from the beginning, and then a scholarly examination of the 'text' in the west prompts western Churches to believe is was a sedar meal, and changes were made sometime in 700ad - 800ad in the west.

I have found no evidence that all of us used leavened bread from the beginning except for Orthodox claims. Can you provide any?

The most ancient of evidence we have are from the Scriptures themselves with Paul indicates that Christ our Passover Lamb has been sacrificed and the feast is to be kept with "the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth". Can't get much more 'beginning' than that.

What I come away with is a totality of circumstances that lead me to Christ being in the grave for the actual sedar meal.

That would leave the conclusion that Dom Gregory Dix made, that The Last Supper was a 'friends meal', a chaburah, a clearing of the house, in preparation, before the sedar.

God be gracious to me a sinner.

I don't know who Dom Gregory Dix is, but if his reasoning includes that the seder is eaten standing up, his scholarly work is very much flawed. He also disagrees with the the conclusion of Athanasius, John of Damascus, Cyprian of Carthage, Hilary of Poitiers, Gregory Nazianzen, John Chrysostom, Augustine, Clement of Alexandria, Origen, the Orthodox Study Bible and the synoptic Gospels themselves.

 

[narnia59]

Whatever the case may be (and there is a longer discussion to be had on OT and NT theology and leavened vs. unleavened, including the showbread and the bread of celebration etc.), per my understanding part of the reason that the bread issue became emblematic was that Rome had not always used unleavened bread but had changed practice (from artos to azymos) in the 8th or 9th c.

See:

Church's Liturgy - Michael Kunzler - Google Books

Catholic Anchor Online » Sacred Liturgy: The Mass may change but the core does not

The Catholic article you provided says that "a switch in the eighth century from unleavened to leavened bread" occurs. Just the opposite of what the Orthodox say.

The book you provide from an Orthodox source cites 1 Corinthians and St. Paul speaking to the breaking of the bread, and that the change to unleavened bread made the 'breaking of the bread' lose its meaning. But ironically it's in 1 Corinthians that Paul also writes that the feast should be kept with "unleavened bread".

So my question -- your understanding has been that the Catholics changed from leavened to unleavened. But all I can find are Orthodox sources saying that. Can you provide any primary sources that show the early church used leavened bread for Eucharist? (Mine for unleavened is from 1 Corinthians....)

 

[ptomwebster]

As the verses you cite from Matthew use "azymos/unleavened bread", and the descriptions of the Last Supper (Mark 14:22, Matt. 26:26, Luke 22:19, 1 Cor. 11:23), after the resurrection (Luke 24:30), and also the "breaking of the bread" in Acts all use the term "artos/leavened bread", the use of leavened bread (artos) aligns with Scripture.

And we know the warning Christ gave His disciples about leaven.

 

[narnia59]

This source might be of interest as well:


Was Jesus’ Last Supper a Seder? – Biblical Archaeology Society

I find this one particularly interesting, which allows all the Gospels to be absolutely in harmony and doesn't have to question the accuracy of Scripture....

For Jews at the time of Christ, the reason for a double Passover celebration was well known. It is a practice that still continues today. Christ was a resident of Galilee, and Galileans were expected to observe two seders (Passover suppers) in succession. Residents of Jerusalem were only required to observe one. In fact, even when Christ visited Jerusalem as he did prior to his Crucifixion, he was still required to observe two seders. There was a practical reason for the origin of this double celebration -- it was to insure that if calendars in outlying areas were off by a day, that at least one of the celebrations would be in sync with the official one in Jerusalem.

Read more: Did Christ Celebrate The Last Supper on The Wrong Day?

 

[Thekla]

The Catholic article you provided says that "a switch in the eighth century from unleavened to leavened bread" occurs. Just the opposite of what the Orthodox say.

The book you provide from an Orthodox source cites 1 Corinthians and St. Paul speaking to the breaking of the bread, and that the change to unleavened bread made the 'breaking of the bread' lose its meaning. But ironically it's in 1 Corinthians that Paul also writes that the feast should be kept with "unleavened bread".

So my question -- your understanding has been that the Catholics changed from leavened to unleavened. But all I can find are Orthodox sources saying that. Can you provide any primary sources that show the early church used leavened bread for Eucharist? (Mine for unleavened is from 1 Corinthians....)

Sorry, I was scanning.

I was not aware I used an Orthodox source; but, at any rate it is we who are to be unleavened (and in this we may be leavened by Christ).

And I really do not have the time to research.

You can see the attestation concerning the timing of the last supper (before Passover, on 13 Nisan) from pope Theophilos of Alexandria (4th c.) here (page 84, section 4):

Theophilus of Alexandria - Norman Russell - Google Books

You can see more here:
Azymite - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And here (page 153):
http://books.google.com/books?id=7c...atin rite history leavened unleavened&f=false

The Copts and Syriacs (citing the maintenance of the ancient practice fwiw) use leavened as well, the Armenians use unleavened.

The first source does state: "The breaking of the bread lost its practical meaning with the transition to unleavened bread and the pre-prepared small hosts for the faithful." p. 238, 3.8.3 (Michael Kunzler, The Church's Liturgy)
http://books.google.com/books/about/Church_s_Liturgy.html?id=TObDrbvQFT4C
The book is described by the publisher as being a "Handbook of Catholic Theology" under the general editorship of Cardinal Schonborn, then Archbishop of Vienna.

One cannot assume that every mention of artos/leavened = unleavened.

 

[Thekla]

And we know the warning Christ gave His disciples about leaven.

Yes. And I don't think the use of unleavened vs. leavened bread is "huge" (as there are theological implications which inform both).

(IE considerations of Passover and the variety of views re: the Gospel accounts, and also considerations of Christ as "bread of life" and the "true bread/artos John 6:22, the peace offering of leavened bread in Leviticus, etc.)

Forgot an important reference

in Matthew, the Kingdom of Heaven is like leaven (Matthew 13:33)

 

[ptomwebster]

Yes. And I don't think the use of unleavened vs. leavened bread is "huge" (as there are theological implications which inform both).

...

Mat 16:11 How is it that ye do not understand that I spake it not to you concerning bread, that ye should beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees?
Mat 16:12 Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.

There is a lot of bad leaven here.

 

[Thekla]

Mat 16:11 How is it that ye do not understand that I spake it not to you concerning bread, that ye should beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees?
Mat 16:12 Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.

There is a lot of bad leaven here.

And the leaven of the Kingdom of Heaven (Matthew 13:33, Luke 13), and the bread of the peace offering (Leviticus 7:13), and Christ the bread/artos of life (John 6) (none of which is the leaven of the Pharisees).

 

[Standing Up]

What day was this?

Jhn 19:31
¶
The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.


​

That day would be the 14th Passover (preparation day of the Passover feast).

The next day 15th would be the Sabbath feast day (high day) upon which they did not want the body to remain.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by ptomwebster

Mat 16:11 How is it that ye do not understand that I spake it not to you concerning bread, that ye should beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees?
Mat 16:12 Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.

There is a lot of bad leaven here.
​

And the leaven of the Kingdom of Heaven (Matthew 13:33, Luke 13), and the bread of the peace offering (Leviticus 7:13), and Christ the bread/artos of life (John 6) (none of which is the leaven of the Pharisees).

Is the type of "leaven" spoken symbolic in that case?

Exd 12:15
Seven days ye eat unleavened things; only -- in the first day ye cause leaven to cease out of your houses;
for any one eating anything fermented from the first day till the seventh day, even that person hath been cut off from Israel.

1Cr 5:7
cleanse out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, according as ye are unleavened,
for also our passover for us was sacrificed -- Christ,


.

 

[SwordFall]

Does anyone actually prefer the tasteless wafers or oyster crackers to the real bread you sometimes see?

The Church is very traditional. You heard of the nun that was almost excommunicated for serving cupcakes instead, no?

It really does not matter to me. It's all about receiving Christ. Tastes like Jesus

 

[Standing Up]

Justin Martyr-

" For this is the symbolic significance of unleavened bread, that you do not commit the old deeds of wicked leaven. But you have understood all things in a carnal sense, and you suppose it to be piety if you do such things, while your souls are filled with deceit, and, in short, with every wickedness. Accordingly, also, after the seven days of eating unleavened bread, God commanded them to mingle new leaven, that is, the performance of other works, and not the imitation of the old and evil works. "
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.viii.iv.xiv.html

Not clear he used unleavened bread, but reaffirms it was used at Passover. Leavened bread comes in at Pentecost.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by GratiaCorpusChristi

Does anyone actually prefer the tasteless wafers or oyster crackers to the real bread you sometimes see?
​

I do like the taste of oysters!

 

[Thekla]

Is the type of "leaven" spoken symbolic in that case?

Exd 12:15
Seven days ye eat unleavened things; only -- in the first day ye cause leaven to cease out of your houses;
for any one eating anything fermented from the first day till the seventh day, even that person hath been cut off from Israel.

1Cr 5:7
cleanse out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, according as ye are unleavened,
for also our passover for us was sacrificed -- Christ,


.

Christ explained (Matthew) that He was not talking about bread, but teachings (of the pharisees).

So if one looks from the view of the Kingdom of Heaven and leaven (Matthew, Luke), Christ as the bread of life, and that it is we who are to be unleavened (Paul, to the Corinthians) and:

For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
Romans 11:16

and the bread offered for "first fruits/wave" was leavened (Lev. 23:17) as well as the peace offering (Lev. 7:13)

it helps to understand the use of leaven for the bread offered for the Eucharist.

 

[Thekla]

Justin Martyr-

" For this is the symbolic significance of unleavened bread, that you do not commit the old deeds of wicked leaven. But you have understood all things in a carnal sense, and you suppose it to be piety if you do such things, while your souls are filled with deceit, and, in short, with every wickedness. Accordingly, also, after the seven days of eating unleavened bread, God commanded them to mingle new leaven, that is, the performance of other works, and not the imitation of the old and evil works. "
ANF01. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

Not clear he used unleavened bread, but reaffirms it was used at Passover. Leavened bread comes in at Pentecost.

Chapter XIV.—Righteousness is not placed in Jewish rites, but in the conversion of the heart given in baptism by Christ.

“By reason, therefore, of this laver of repentance and knowledge of God, which has been ordained on account of the transgression of God’s people, as Isaiah cries, we have believed, and testify that that very baptism which he announced is alone able to purify those who have repented; and this is the water of life. But the cisterns which you have dug for yourselves are broken and profitless to you. For what is the use of that baptism which cleanses the flesh and body alone? Baptize the soul from wrath and from covetousness, from envy, and from hatred; and, lo! the body is pure. For this is the symbolic significance of unleavened bread, that you do not commit the old deeds of wicked leaven. But you have understood all things in a carnal sense, and you suppose it to be piety if you do such things, while your souls are filled with deceit, and, in short, with every wickedness. Accordingly, also, after the seven days of eating unleavened bread, God commanded them to mingle new leaven, that is, the performance of other works, and not the imitation of the old and evil works. And because this is what this new Lawgiver demands of you, I shall again refer to the words which have been quoted by me, and to others also which have been passed over. They are related by Isaiah to the following effect: ‘Hearken to me, and your soul shall live; and I will make with you an everlasting covenant, even the sure mercies of David. Behold, I have given Him for a witness to the people, a leader and commander to the nations. Nations which know not Thee shall call on Thee; and peoples who know not Thee shall escape unto Thee, because of Thy God, the Holy One of Israel, for He has glorified Thee. Seek ye God; and when you find Him, call on Him, so long as He may be nigh you. Let the wicked forsake his ways, and the unrighteous man his thoughts; and let him return unto the Lord, and he will obtain mercy, because He will abundantly pardon your sins. For my thoughts are not as your thoughts, neither are my ways as your ways; but as far removed as the heavens are from the earth, so far is my way removed from your way, and your thoughts from my thoughts. For as the snow or the rain descends from heaven, and shall not return till it waters the earth, and makes it bring forth and bud, and gives seed to the sower and bread for food, so shall My word be that goeth forth out of My mouth: it shall not return until it shall have 202 accomplished all that I desired, and I shall make My commandments prosperous. For ye shall go out with joy, and be taught with gladness. For the mountains and the hills shall leap while they expect you, and all the trees of the fields shall applaud with their branches: and instead of the thorn shall come up the cypress, and instead of the brier shall come up the myrtle. And the Lord shall be for a name, and for an everlasting sign, and He shall not fail!’1979 Of these and such like words written by the prophets, O Trypho,” said I, “some have reference to the first advent of Christ, in which He is preached as inglorious, obscure, and of mortal appearance: but others had reference to His second advent, when He shall appear in glory and above the clouds; and your nation shall see and know Him whom they have pierced, as Hosea, one of the twelve prophets, and Daniel, foretold.



(Quote restored to its immediate context.)


This is about the disposition and precedes the discussion of fasting ( which is abstaining from foods and more focused attention to actions and disposition).

 

[Standing Up]

Chapter XIV.—Righteousness is not placed in Jewish rites, but in the conversion of the heart given in baptism by Christ.

“By reason, therefore, of this laver of repentance and knowledge of God, which has been ordained on account of the transgression of God’s people, as Isaiah cries, we have believed, and testify that that very baptism which he announced is alone able to purify those who have repented; and this is the water of life. But the cisterns which you have dug for yourselves are broken and profitless to you. For what is the use of that baptism which cleanses the flesh and body alone? Baptize the soul from wrath and from covetousness, from envy, and from hatred; and, lo! the body is pure. For this is the symbolic significance of unleavened bread, that you do not commit the old deeds of wicked leaven. But you have understood all things in a carnal sense, and you suppose it to be piety if you do such things, while your souls are filled with deceit, and, in short, with every wickedness. Accordingly, also, after the seven days of eating unleavened bread, God commanded them to mingle new leaven, that is, the performance of other works, and not the imitation of the old and evil works. And because this is what this new Lawgiver demands of you, I shall again refer to the words which have been quoted by me, and to others also which have been passed over. They are related by Isaiah to the following effect: ‘Hearken to me, and your soul shall live; and I will make with you an everlasting covenant, even the sure mercies of David. Behold, I have given Him for a witness to the people, a leader and commander to the nations. Nations which know not Thee shall call on Thee; and peoples who know not Thee shall escape unto Thee, because of Thy God, the Holy One of Israel, for He has glorified Thee. Seek ye God; and when you find Him, call on Him, so long as He may be nigh you. Let the wicked forsake his ways, and the unrighteous man his thoughts; and let him return unto the Lord, and he will obtain mercy, because He will abundantly pardon your sins. For my thoughts are not as your thoughts, neither are my ways as your ways; but as far removed as the heavens are from the earth, so far is my way removed from your way, and your thoughts from my thoughts. For as the snow or the rain descends from heaven, and shall not return till it waters the earth, and makes it bring forth and bud, and gives seed to the sower and bread for food, so shall My word be that goeth forth out of My mouth: it shall not return until it shall have 202 accomplished all that I desired, and I shall make My commandments prosperous. For ye shall go out with joy, and be taught with gladness. For the mountains and the hills shall leap while they expect you, and all the trees of the fields shall applaud with their branches: and instead of the thorn shall come up the cypress, and instead of the brier shall come up the myrtle. And the Lord shall be for a name, and for an everlasting sign, and He shall not fail!’1979 Of these and such like words written by the prophets, O Trypho,” said I, “some have reference to the first advent of Christ, in which He is preached as inglorious, obscure, and of mortal appearance: but others had reference to His second advent, when He shall appear in glory and above the clouds; and your nation shall see and know Him whom they have pierced, as Hosea, one of the twelve prophets, and Daniel, foretold.



(Quote restored to its immediate context.)


This is about the disposition and precedes the discussion of fasting ( which is abstaining from foods and more focused attention to actions and disposition).

The immediate context remains that they (Christ/apostles) used unleavened bread at Passover. At Pentecost, they mingled leaven and unleavened.