Communion Bread

[Thekla]

What day was this?

Jhn 19:31
¶
The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.


​

That day would be the 14th Passover (preparation day of the Passover feast).

The next day 15th would be the Sabbath feast day (high day) upon which they did not want the body to remain.

From pope Theophilos of Alexandria (4th. c.):

"Furthermore, since our Savior was betrayed on the 13th, that is on a Thursday, was crucified on the 14th, and rose again on the third day, that is the 16th of the moon, which fell then on a Sunday ..."
(page 84, section 4) here:
Theophilus of Alexandria - Norman Russell - Google Books

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Christ explained (Matthew) that He was not talking about bread, but teachings (of the pharisees).

So if one looks from the view of the Kingdom of Heaven and leaven (Matthew, Luke), Christ as the bread of life, and that it is we who are to be unleavened (Paul, to the Corinthians) and:

For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
Romans 11:16

and the bread offered for "first fruits/wave" was leavened (Lev. 23:17) as well as the peace offering (Lev. 7:13)

it helps to understand the use of leaven for the bread offered for the Eucharist.

Which makes me ask, which of the multitudes of Christian denominations use leven vs unleaven bread? Thanks

http://www.christianforums.com/t6404435/
Unleavened or Leavened Bread?

From the OCA website:

QUESTION:

Why does the Orthodox church use leavened bread and most Protestant fellowships use unleavened bread? I am a member of the Church of Christ (Restoration Movement) and we use unleavened bread because we assume that is the type of bread used at the Last Supper. When was unleavened bread brought introduced to the church?


ANSWER:

Actually, leavened bread has always been used in the Eastern Church. In fact, at one point in time, a great controversy raged over the fact that in the Eastern Church leavened bread was used, while in the Christian West unleavened bread was the norm.

In the Christian East there is no concern for using the exact type of bread used at the Last Supper -- known in the Orthodox Church as the "Mystical Supper." Christ "leavens" our lives, so to speak, and the purpose of the Eucharistic celebration is not to "recreate" or "reproduce" a past event but, rather, to participate in an event that is beyond time and space and which, in fact, continues to happen each time the Eucharist is celebrated in fulfillment of Our Lord's command.


OCA - Q &amp A - Leavened Bread vs. Unleavened

 

[Standing Up]

Originally Posted by Standing Up

Jhn 19:31
¶
The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.


​

That day would be the 14th Passover (preparation day of the Passover feast).

The next day 15th would be the Sabbath feast day (high day) upon which they did not want the body to remain.
​

From pope Theophilos of Alexandria (4th. c.):

"Furthermore, since our Savior was betrayed on the 13th, that is on a Thursday, was crucified on the 14th, and rose again on the third day, that is the 16th of the moon, which fell then on a Sunday ..."
(page 84, section 4) here:
Theophilus of Alexandria - Norman Russell - Google Books

Yes, John, Theophilos and I are in agreement. Christ died on Passover the 14th.

 

[Thekla]

Originally Posted by Standing Up

Jhn 19:31
¶
The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.


​

That day would be the 14th Passover (preparation day of the Passover feast).

The next day 15th would be the Sabbath feast day (high day) upon which they did not want the body to remain.
​

Yes, John, Theophilos and I are in agreement. Christ died on Passover the 14th.

Both Theophilos and Justin Martyr attest Christ was crucified on a Friday, and John also - and this before sundown.

The meal was given on the 13th, before Passover.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by Standing Up

Originally Posted by Standing Up

Jhn 19:31
¶
The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.


​

That day would be the 14th Passover (preparation day of the Passover feast).
​

Both Theophilos and Justin Martyr attest Christ was crucified on a Friday, and John also - and this before sundown.

The meal was given on the 13th, before Passover.

Interesting.

Josephus mentions encompassing Jerusalem on Passover, the 14the day of the 4th month. How relevant is that?

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD
The Destruction Of JERUSALEM
An Absolute and Irresistible PROOF OF THE DIVINE ORIGIN OF CHRISTIANITY:


The day on which Titus encompassed Jerusalem, was the feast of the Passover ; and it is deserving of the very particular attention of the reader, that this was the anniversary of that memorable period in which the Jews crucified their Messiah !
At this season multitudes came up from all the surrounding country, and from distant parts, to keep the festival. How suitable and how kind, then, was the prophetic admonition of our LORD, and how clearly he into futurity when he said "Let not them that are in the countries enter into Jerusalem." Luke xxi. 21..................


This memorable siege terminated on the eighth day of the ninth month, A. D. 70 : its duration was nearly five months,
the Romans having invested the city on the fourteenth day of the fourth month, preceeding. .................

 

[Standing Up]

Both Theophilos and Justin Martyr attest Christ was crucified on a Friday, and John also - and this before sundown.

The meal was given on the 13th, before Passover.

Two things. We shouldn't confuse our method of time keeping to theirs. Sunset, as you note, is their day change. Two, let's suspend the Friday issue for a moment and deal with the Passover date.

So, John, Theophilus, and I agree Christ died on the 14th in the afternoon. Christ would thus have eaten the Passover the evening before (after sunset), still the 14th.

PS. Theophilus does confuse a midnight change with sunset change. Betrayed on the 13th he says, but that would be the 14th per Jewish method of time keeping.

Sunset, 14th starts, Passover, betrayal.
Sunrise, 14th afternoon crucified.

 

[Standing Up]

Here, Peter of Alexandria (320ad) may support EO position of leavened bread.

" On that day, therefore, on which the Jews were about to eat the Passover in the evening, our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ was crucified, being made the victim to those who were about to partake by faith of the mystery concerning Him, according to what is written by the blessed Paul: “For even Christ our Passover is sacrificed for us;”23782378 1 Cor. v. 7. and not as some who, carried along by ignorance, confidently affirm that after He had eaten the Passover, He was betrayed; which we neither learn from the holy evangelists, nor has any of the blessed apostles handed it down to us. At the time, therefore, in which our Lord and God Jesus Christ suffered for us, according to the flesh, He did not eat of the legal Passover; but, as I have said, He Himself, as the true Lamb, was sacrificed for us in the feast of the typical Passover, on the day of the preparation, the fourteenth of the first lunar month. The typical Passover, therefore, then ceased, the true Passover being present: “For Christ our Passover was sacrificed for us,” as has been before said, and as that chosen vessel, the apostle Paul, teaches."
ANF06. Fathers of the Third Century: Gregory Thaumaturgus, Dionysius the Great, Julius Africanus, Anatolius, and Minor Writers, Methodius, Arn - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

PS. I believe PoA is the one who is "carried along by ignorance".

PPS. The disagreement by this time was 200 years along.

 

[Cappadocious]

Wasn't sure your question at first, but let me try this. You're saying because RC uses unleavened bread that their theology is boring and dour?

I mean, since you don't go to church, abhor icons, believe a bunch of conspiracy theories about church history but won't get any of it published and peer-reviewed, think that the closest connection we can have to God this side of the Resurrection is thoughts abstractly referring to Jesus, etc.

Do you regard the boring, depressing and dour state of affairs you consider true Christianity to be a form of martyrdom, because, you know, it's so weaksauce and you have to put up with it?

 

[Thekla]

Two things. We shouldn't confuse our method of time keeping to theirs. Sunset, as you note, is their day change. Two, let's suspend the Friday issue for a moment and deal with the Passover date.

So, John, Theophilus, and I agree Christ died on the 14th in the afternoon. Christ would thus have eaten the Passover the evening before (after sunset), still the 14th.

PS. Theophilus does confuse a midnight change with sunset change. Betrayed on the 13th he says, but that would be the 14th per Jewish method of time keeping.

Sunset, 14th starts, Passover, betrayal.
Sunrise, 14th afternoon crucified.

Go back and read more of Theophilos ... he explains the respective calendric methods and corrects for the variance between lunar and solar calendars.

He also explains the other factor for determining Nisan -- the terrestrial conditions.

 

[SwordFall]

Two things. We shouldn't confuse our method of time keeping to theirs. Sunset, as you note, is their day change. Two, let's suspend the Friday issue for a moment and deal with the Passover date.

So, John, Theophilus, and I agree Christ died on the 14th in the afternoon. Christ would thus have eaten the Passover the evening before (after sunset), still the 14th.

PS. Theophilus does confuse a midnight change with sunset change. Betrayed on the 13th he says, but that would be the 14th per Jewish method of time keeping.

Sunset, 14th starts, Passover, betrayal.
Sunrise, 14th afternoon crucified.

Drop the biscuit, don't even worry about that nonsense.

 

[Cappadocious]

Whoring after signs and seasons is particularly exhausting, especially during the American holiday season.

 

[Standing Up]

Go back and read more of Theophilos ... he explains the respective calendric methods and corrects for the variance between lunar and solar calendars.

He also explains the other factor for determining Nisan -- the terrestrial conditions.

Sure, we could do that, but the point remains.

John, Theophilus, and I agree Christ died on 14th Passover.

 

[Standing Up]

I mean, since you don't go to church, abhor icons, believe a bunch of conspiracy theories about church history but won't get any of it published and peer-reviewed, think that the closest connection we can have to God this side of the Resurrection is thoughts abstractly referring to Jesus, etc.

Do you regard the boring, depressing and dour state of affairs you consider true Christianity to be a form of martyrdom, because, you know, it's so weaksauce and you have to put up with it?

You're still projecting your feelings onto me. IOW, the part I bolded is your feelings about "true Christianity", not mine. Hence, your question is meaningless, except for you to answer.

 

[prodromos]

The book you provide from an Orthodox source cites 1 Corinthians and St. Paul speaking to the breaking of the bread, and that the change to unleavened bread made the 'breaking of the bread' lose its meaning. But ironically it's in 1 Corinthians that Paul also writes that the feast should be kept with "unleavened bread".

The book is from a Catholic source. Perhaps you should do a little research on the background of the author, Professor Michael Kunzler, Protopresbyter of the Ukrainian-Greek Catholic Church in Trier, Germany, appointed by Pope Benedict as advisor to the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments, also given the title "monsignor" by the same.

So my question -- your understanding has been that the Catholics changed from leavened to unleavened. But all I can find are Orthodox sources saying that. Can you provide any primary sources that show the early church used leavened bread for Eucharist?

See this post
http://www.christianforums.com/t7781936-post64398581/#post64398581

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Standing Up, do you count your perseverance in a theology far more boring and dour than traditional nicene Christianity to be a form of personal martyrdom?

Why the ad hom?

God be gracious to me a sinner.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Whoring after signs and seasons is particularly exhausting, especially during the American holiday season.

Huh?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJFJeDZyigM


.

 

[Cappadocious]

Why the ad hom?

God be gracious to me a sinner.

How is attacking a denomination ad hom?

 

[WisdomTree]

How is attacking a denomination ad hom?

Denominations are people too!

 

[Tangible]

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

How is attacking a denomination ad hom?

Your question was a personal one. Read the last two words in your sentence.

God be gracious to me a sinner.