Communion Bread

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Holy mother of .....

This isn't a matter of "what tastes better?", but of "What did Jesus use?". He used unleavened bread.
Now, true, this does not necessarily HAVE to mean those wafers. As long as it is unleavened bread, like the Matzah-bread, it's valid.

But please, please spare me the "Let's just use random bread that the little old ladies made because it would mean so much to them.", or whatever kind of excuse can be used to use normal bread.

Hey, why not use the snickers-bar one of the kids gave the pastor one day? Sharing a snickers would be soooo cool symbolically, right?
Get the elements right, or don't have communion at all. Don't mock the sacred.

Why do you think it was unleaved? Just asking.

God be gracious to me a sinner.

 

[Standing Up]

Why do you think it was unleaved? Just asking.

God be gracious to me a sinner.

That's what they used in the Pascha observance at that time.

Ex. 34:25
Thou shalt not offer the blood of my sacrifice with leaven; neither shall the sacrifice of the feast of the passover be left unto the morning.

Believe the church later used leavened bread to separate itself from its Jewish roots and symbolize the resurrection, though that would be wrong too because it was 7 days of unleavened bread. Christ without sin.

The leavened bread came in at Pentecost wherein both were used, symbolizing Spirit (no sin, unleavened bread) and man (sin, leavened bread).

When the church separated itself and married the state c325ad, it caused confusion.

 

[Cappadocious]

Standing Up, do you count your perseverance in a theology far more boring and dour than traditional nicene Christianity to be a form of personal martyrdom?

 

[ptomwebster]

Why do you think it was unleaved? Just asking....

Well Ortho, what meal were they eating? Matthew 26 might help you,

"Mat 26:17 Now the first day of the feast of unleavened bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare for thee to eat the passover?
Mat 26:18 And he said, Go into the city to such a man, and say unto him, The Master saith, My time is at hand; I will keep the passover at thy house with my disciples.
Mat 26:19 And the disciples did as Jesus had appointed them; and they made ready the passover.
Mat 26:20 Now when the even was come, he sat down with the twelve. Mat 26:21 And as they did eat, he said, Verily I say unto you, that one of you shall betray me.
Mat 26:22 And they were exceeding sorrowful, and began every one of them to say unto him, Lord, is it I?
Mat 26:23 And he answered and said, He that dippeth his hand with me in the dish, the same shall betray me.
Mat 26:24 The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born.
Mat 26:25 Then Judas, which betrayed him, answered and said, Master, is it I? He said unto him, Thou hast said.
Mat 26:26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.
Mat 26:27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
Mat 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Since it was the feast of unleavened bread I expect they had unleavened bread. What kind of bread do you think they would have had?

 

[Standing Up]

Standing Up, do you count your perseverance in a theology far more boring and dour than traditional nicene Christianity to be a form of personal martyrdom?

Wasn't sure your question at first, but let me try this. You're saying because RC uses unleavened bread that their theology is boring and dour? And you're saying EO departed from traditional Nicene Christianity because it uses leavened bread? So, you feel a certain personal martyrdom, being EO yourself, but you're projecting your martyrdom malaise on me?

See if you can confirm or clarify ...

 

[Standing Up]

God instituted the Eucharist so that all men in all later time would be able to partake of the ultimate sacrifice of God as the Lamb of God. It must be wheat bread and made from human hands and consecrated by a priest/bishop who was ordained from an unbroken line that goes back to the Apostles and thus Jesus.

The taste and appearance do not matter, because it IS the body and blood of Jesus. So, why would anyone choose what they want God to be? God is and we ought to be grateful.

You have avoided the 1054ad split issue wherein EO argued for leavened bread and RC for unleavened bread. IOW, wheat bread, shaken or stirred?

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

What day was this?

Jhn 19:31
¶
The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.

God be gracious to me a sinner.

 

[squint]

You have avoided the 1054ad split issue wherein EO argued for leavened bread and RC for unleavened bread. IOW, wheat bread, shaken or stirred?

I wonder how much of it is GMO bread today?

 

[Thekla]

Well Ortho, what meal were they eating? Matthew 26 might help you,

"Mat 26:17 Now the first day of the feast of unleavened bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare for thee to eat the passover?
Mat 26:18 And he said, Go into the city to such a man, and say unto him, The Master saith, My time is at hand; I will keep the passover at thy house with my disciples.
Mat 26:19 And the disciples did as Jesus had appointed them; and they made ready the passover.
Mat 26:20 Now when the even was come, he sat down with the twelve. Mat 26:21 And as they did eat, he said, Verily I say unto you, that one of you shall betray me.
Mat 26:22 And they were exceeding sorrowful, and began every one of them to say unto him, Lord, is it I?
Mat 26:23 And he answered and said, He that dippeth his hand with me in the dish, the same shall betray me.
Mat 26:24 The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born.
Mat 26:25 Then Judas, which betrayed him, answered and said, Master, is it I? He said unto him, Thou hast said.
Mat 26:26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.
Mat 26:27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
Mat 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Since it was the feast of unleavened bread I expect they had unleavened bread. What kind of bread do you think they would have had?

As the verses you cite from Matthew use "azymos/unleavened bread", and the descriptions of the Last Supper (Mark 14:22, Matt. 26:26, Luke 22:19, 1 Cor. 11:23), after the resurrection (Luke 24:30), and also the "breaking of the bread" in Acts all use the term "artos/leavened bread", the use of leavened bread (artos) aligns with Scripture.

 

[Thekla]

You have avoided the 1054ad split issue wherein EO argued for leavened bread and RC for unleavened bread. IOW, wheat bread, shaken or stirred?

I wonder how much of it is GMO bread today?

Depends on the flour people use to make the bread they bring to Church for the offering (and same holds with wine)

Re: the "split", as previously described the azymos/artos was emblematic of the other issues but was not a core issue.

 

[MrLuther]

Why do you think it was unleaved? Just asking.

Because it happened during Passover?
Seriously, people, this is Christian Knowledge 101!

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Because it happened during Passover?
Seriously, people, this is Christian Knowledge 101!

The last supper does not describe a seder meal.

Christ was in the grave when the sedar meal was served.

I remember being taught that The Church of Rome didn't start using unleavened bread until the 7-800's. Can anybody confirm that?

Christianity 101 is that we all used leavened bread from the beginning. And as Thekla said the problem was only emblematic of the deeper issues.

God be gracious to me a sinner.

 

[narnia59]

As the verses you cite from Matthew use "azymos/unleavened bread", and the descriptions of the Last Supper (Mark 14:22, Matt. 26:26, Luke 22:19, 1 Cor. 11:23), after the resurrection (Luke 24:30), and also the "breaking of the bread" in Acts all use the term "artos/leavened bread", the use of leavened bread (artos) aligns with Scripture.

I researched this in depth one time. "Artos" does not denote either leavened or unleavened that I can tell. For example, it is used in Exodus 29:23 in the Septuagint where it is clearly referring to unleavened bread (because that is the basket it is chosen from).

Exodus 29:23 23 and one loaf of bread (artos), and one cake of bread with oil, and one wafer, out of the basket of unleavened bread that is before the LORD;

Likewise, in Matthew's Gospel the Scripture is clear that this is the first day of unleavened bread, and they are preparing to eat the Passover meal (Matthew 26:17). It is not necessary to specify that the bread is unleavened (artos evidently can be both) in order to conclude that the context of the Gospel indicates it is.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Snip from The Orthodox Study Bible:

While the synoptic Gospels date the Crucifixion if the first day of Passover, John dates it on the Preparation Day. Thus, in the synoptic tradition, the Last Supper is the Passover meal, while in John's Gospel, Jesus, as the Lamb of God, dies at the exact time the Passover lambs are being slain in the temple.

God be gracious to me a sinner.

 

[narnia59]

The last supper does not describe a seder meal.

Christ was in the grave when the sedar meal was served.

I remember being taught that The Church of Rome didn't start using unleavened bread until the 7-800's. Can anybody confirm that?

Christianity 101 is that we all used leavened bread from the begging. And as Thekla said the problem was only emblematic of the deeper issues.

God be gracious to me a sinner.

Actually the Last Supper does describe a seder meal, in all 3 of the synoptic Gospels that present it.

This Russian Orthodox catechism agrees it's the Passover meal:

The sacrament of the Eucharist was instituted by Christ at the Last Supper. The Last Supper of Christ with the disciples was, in its outward ritual, the traditional Jewish Paschal meal when the members of every family in Israel gathered to taste of the sacrificial lamb.

An Online Orthodox Catechism » Catechism » OrthodoxEurope.org


And I don't necessarily agree with the conclusion of this Orthodox group (that they celebrate the Passover with unleavened bread and then Christ uses leavened bread to consecrate, but again, they clearly believe it is the Passover meal they ate:

The Syrian Orthodox Church uses leavened wheat bread and grape wine for the celebration of the Eucharistic Liturgy. There is reason to believe that Christ used leavened break, lahmo, at the Last Supper. Having concluded the Passover meal with His Disiples,1 Christ took leavened break into His hands, having already observed the Passover with its required unleavened bread.

The Eucharistic Liturgy of The Syrian Orthodox Church - Syriac Orthodox Church of Antioch


The OCA says it was the Passover meal they ate:

The Christian eucharist is a meal specifically connected with the Passover meal of the Old Testament. At the end of his life Christ, the Jewish Messiah, ate the Passover meal with his disciples.

OCA - The Orthodox Faith - Volume II - Worship - The Sacraments - Holy Eucharist


And this one says that:

After eating the Old Testament Jewish Passover, Jesus Christ established on this evening the sacrament of Holy Communion. Therefore, the occasion is called in the Orthodox Church the "Mystical Supper."

The Mystical (Last) Supper




There are some very good explanations as to why the synoptic Gospels and John's Gospels differ on the timing of things that allow both to be correct. What I find impossible to accept though is that the synoptic Gospels are actually in error, like this Orthodox site states:

Clearly, the synoptic Gospels are in error on the day of Last Supper and Passion.

Eucharist - OrthodoxWiki

How anyone can so easily dismiss the issue with a wave of the hand that "all 3 of the synoptic Gospels are simply in error" is beyond my ability to comprehend.

 

[narnia59]

Snip from The Orthodox Study Bible:



God be gracious to me a sinner.

If it's the same Orthodox Study Bible I have, the note on Matthew's Gospel states:

Whether the first day of the Feast was Passover or the day before Passover is debated among the Fathers. What is certain is that Jesus regarded the meal with the disciples to be the Passover meal.

The note on Luke 22:17,18 says that the first cup concludes the OT Passover meal Christ eats with His disciples to fulfill the Law.

While I don't agree that is the case, it still says it was the OT Passover meal they ate.

 

[narnia59]

Here's some ECF quotes that are relevant:

Athanasius, Letter 4
For perceiving this, and being assembled together with the Truth , they drew near, and said unto our Saviour, 'Where will You that we should make ready for You the Passover Matthew 26:17?' For no longer were these things to be done which belonged to Jerusalem which is beneath; neither there alone was the feast to be celebrated, but wherever God willed it to be. Now He willed it to be in every place, so that 'in every place incense and a sacrifice might be offered to Him Malachi 1:11.' For although, as in the historical account, in no other place might the feast of the Passover be kept save only in Jerusalem, yet when the things pertaining to that time were fulfilled, and those which belonged to shadows had passed away, and the preaching of the Gospel was about to extend everywhere; when indeed the disciples were spreading the feast in all places, they asked the Saviour, 'Where will You that we shall make ready?' The Saviour also, since He was changing the typical for the spiritual, promised them that they should no longer eat the flesh of a lamb, but His own, saying, 'Take, eat and drink; this is My body, and My blood. ' When we are thus nourished by these things, we also, my beloved, shall truly keep the feast of the Passover.

John of Damascus, An Exposition of the Orthodox Faith (Book IV)
John 6:48 For when He was about to take on Himself a voluntary death for our sakes, on the night on which He gave Himself up, He laid a new covenant on His holy disciples and apostles, and through them on all who believe in Him. In the upper chamber, then, of holy and illustrious Sion, after He had eaten the ancient Passover with His disciples and had fulfilled the ancient covenant, He washed His disciples' feet in token of the holy baptism. Then having broken bread He gave it to them saying, Take, eat, this is My body broken for you for the remission of sins. Likewise also He took the cup of wine and water and gave it to them saying, Drink ye all of it: for this is My blood, the blood of the New Testament which is shed for you for the remission of sins. This do ye in remembrance of Me. For as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup, you do show the death of the Son of man and confess His resurrection until He come.

Cyprian of Carthage, The Epistles of Cyprian, Epistle 75
For the faith of the sacred Scripture sets forth that the Church is not without, nor can be separated nor divided against itself, but maintains the unity of an inseparable and undivided house; since it is written of the sacrament of the passover, and of the lamb, which Lamb designated Christ: "In one house shall it be eaten: ye shall not carry forth the flesh abroad out of the house..

Hilary of Poitiers,On the Trinity (Book X)
That we may understand what was the cause of His sadness, let us see what precedes and follows this confession of sadness: for in the Passover supper our Lord completely signified the whole mystery of His Passion and our faith.

Gregory Nazianzen, St [325-389 AD], Oration 40
Again, He gave the Sacrament of the Passover to His Disciples in an upper chamber, and after supper, and one day before He suffered; but we celebrate it in Houses of Prayer, and before food,(g) and after His resurrection...

John Chrsytotom Homily 83 on the Gospel of Matthew
And why did they lead Him away there where they were all assembled? That they might do all things with consent of the chief priests. For he was then high priest, and all were waiting for Christ there, to such a degree did they spend the whole night, and give up their sleep for this object. For neither did they then eat the passover, but watched for this other purpose. For John, when he had said that "it was early," added, "they entered into the judgment hall, lest they should be defiled, but that they might eat the passover."
What must we say then? That they ate it on another day, and broke the law, on account of their eager desire about this murder. For Christ would not have transgressed as to the time of the passover, but they who were daring all things, and trampling under foot a thousand laws. For since they were exceedingly boiling with rage, and having often attempted to seize Him, had not been able; having then taken Him unexpectedly, they chose even to pass by the passover, for the sake of satiating their murderous lust.
For after having shown His own strength, then at once He yielded Himself. But John says, that even to the very moment He continued to reprove him, saying, “Judas, do you betray the Son of Man with a kiss?” Luke 22:48 Are you not ashamed even of the form of the betrayal? Says He. Nevertheless, forasmuch as not even this checked him, He submitted to be kissed, and gave Himself up willingly; and they laid their hands on Him, and seized Him that night on which they ate the passover, to such a degree did they boil with rage, and were mad.

John Chrsytotom Homily 83 on the Gospel of John
“But what is, 'That they might eat the Passover?' For He had done this on the first day of unleavened bread.” Either he calls the whole feast “the Passover,” or means, that they were then keeping the Passover, while He delivered it to His followers one day sooner, reserving His own Sacrifice for the Preparation-day, when also of old the Passover was celebrated.

But how, if they were eating the passover, did they eat it contrary to the law? For they should not have eaten it, sitting down to their meat.What then can be said? That after eating it, they then sat down to the banquet.

Augustine
Letter 36 (A.D. 396)
One day having intervened -- on the evening of which, at the close, namely, of the day which we call the fifth day of the week, the Lord ate the passover with His disciples -- He was thereafter betrayed on the night which belonged to the sixth day of the week, the day (as is everywhere known) of His passion...

Letter 55 (A.D. 400)
" And the same evangelist who records that saying is to be understood as desiring to give emphatic testimony to this, when, speaking of the Lord as about to celebrate with His disciples the passover, at which He instituted the sacramental supper, he says, "When Jesus knew that His hour was come, that He should depart from this world unto the Father

Clement of Alexandria
Accordingly, in the years gone by, Jesus went to eat the passover sacrificed by the Jews, keeping the feast. But when he had preached He who was the Passover, the Lamb of God, led as a sheep to the slaughter, presently taught His disciples the mystery of the type on the thirteenth day, on which also they inquired, "Where wilt Thou that we prepare for Thee to eat the passover?" It was on this day, then, that both the consecration of the unleavened bread and the preparation for the feast took place.

Origen
He asserts, moreover, that "the body of a god is not nourished with such food (as was that of Jesus)," since he is able to prove from. the Gospel narratives both that He partook of food, and food of a particular kind. Well, be it so. Let him assert that He ate the passover with His disciples, when He not only used the words, "With desire have I desired to eat this passover with you," but also actually partook of the same.

 

[narnia59]

And then there's always this reference from St. Paul:

1 Corinthians 5: 7 Cleanse out the old leaven that you may be a new lump, as you really are unleavened. For Christ, our paschal lamb, has been sacrificed. 8 Let us, therefore, celebrate the festival, not with the old leaven, the leaven of malice and evil, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

 

[Thekla]

I researched this in depth one time. "Artos" does not denote either leavened or unleavened that I can tell. For example, it is used in Exodus 29:23 in the Septuagint where it is clearly referring to unleavened bread (because that is the basket it is chosen from).

Exodus 29:23 23 and one loaf of bread (artos), and one cake of bread with oil, and one wafer, out of the basket of unleavened bread that is before the LORD;

Likewise, in Matthew's Gospel the Scripture is clear that this is the first day of unleavened bread, and they are preparing to eat the Passover meal (Matthew 26:17). It is not necessary to specify that the bread is unleavened (artos evidently can be both) in order to conclude that the context of the Gospel indicates it is.

Whatever the case may be (and there is a longer discussion to be had on OT and NT theology and leavened vs. unleavened, including the showbread and the bread of celebration etc.), per my understanding part of the reason that the bread issue became emblematic was that Rome had not always used unleavened bread but had changed practice (from artos to azymos) in the 8th or 9th c.

See:

Church's Liturgy - Michael Kunzler - Google Books

http://www.catholicanchor.org/wordpress/archives/832

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Actually the Last Supper does describe a seder meal, in all 3 of the synoptic Gospels that present it.

This Russian Orthodox catechism agrees it's the Passover meal:

The sacrament of the Eucharist was instituted by Christ at the Last Supper. The Last Supper of Christ with the disciples was, in its outward ritual, the traditional Jewish Paschal meal when the members of every family in Israel gathered to taste of the sacrificial lamb.

An Online Orthodox Catechism » Catechism » OrthodoxEurope.org


And I don't necessarily agree with the conclusion of this Orthodox group (that they celebrate the Passover with unleavened bread and then Christ uses leavened bread to consecrate, but again, they clearly believe it is the Passover meal they ate:

The Syrian Orthodox Church uses leavened wheat bread and grape wine for the celebration of the Eucharistic Liturgy. There is reason to believe that Christ used leavened break, lahmo, at the Last Supper. Having concluded the Passover meal with His Disiples,1 Christ took leavened break into His hands, having already observed the Passover with its required unleavened bread.

The Eucharistic Liturgy of The Syrian Orthodox Church - Syriac Orthodox Church of Antioch


The OCA says it was the Passover meal they ate:

The Christian eucharist is a meal specifically connected with the Passover meal of the Old Testament. At the end of his life Christ, the Jewish Messiah, ate the Passover meal with his disciples.

OCA - The Orthodox Faith - Volume II - Worship - The Sacraments - Holy Eucharist


And this one says that:

After eating the Old Testament Jewish Passover, Jesus Christ established on this evening the sacrament of Holy Communion. Therefore, the occasion is called in the Orthodox Church the "Mystical Supper."

The Mystical (Last) Supper

It's not a matter of DOGMA and there is no 'set' catechism of The Orthodox Church as you may already know. I do not hold any grudge or malice or anything like that of those who believes otherwise. Just that I certainly do not hold that opinion.

There are some very good explanations as to why the synoptic Gospels and John's Gospels differ on the timing of things that allow both to be correct.

I've heard them, I find them rather impossible to believe.

What I find impossible to accept though is that the synoptic Gospels are actually in error, like this Orthodox site states:

Clearly, the synoptic Gospels are in error on the day of Last Supper and Passion.

Eucharist - OrthodoxWiki

What I am certain of, is that John makes a point of ensuring the theological understanding that Christ died at the same hour that the lambs were slain for the Jewish Passover meal.

How anyone can so easily dismiss the issue with a wave of the hand that "all 3 of the synoptic Gospels are simply in error" is beyond my ability to comprehend.

I don't think the synoptic Gospels are in error, but none of them are definitive that the meal in question was a sedar. They're not described as standing, staff in hand... etc.

While at the same time John makes an unambiguous definitive statement.

That it was the day of preparation.

John 19:31 The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.

Now couple this with the history of all of us using leavened bread from the beginning, and then a scholarly examination of the 'text' in the west prompts western Churches to believe is was a sedar meal, and changes were made sometime in 700ad - 800ad in the west.

What I come away with is a totality of circumstances that lead me to Christ being in the grave for the actual sedar meal.

That would leave the conclusion that Dom Gregory Dix made, that The Last Supper was a 'friends meal', a chaburah, a clearing of the house, in preparation, before the sedar.

God be gracious to me a sinner.