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You're welcome my friend, hope it was helpful.Very good list of points. Thanks. in Christ, Bob
I agree with your assessment of Paul's position regarding Col 2:13-18.
Yes, it appears that I am in general agreement with a growing number of SDA theologians on the issue of Paul & the Sabbath.And you have some extremely-strong support in your contention that Paul is a false Apostle from a growing movement within the Seventh Day Adventist theological community:
"The opportunity to examine Colossians 2:14-17 from still another perspective- that of Dr. du Preez' animal sacrifices theory- gives the authors another opportunity to demonstrate that the Gospel of Jesus as given to and articulated by St. Paul cannot possibly be reconciled with Sabbatarianism. We conclude that perhaps the understanding of this reality is the reason why the idea among some SDA's that St. Paul's writings should not have been included in the N.T. Canon has been quietly discussed in the hallways of the SDA Seminary for a very long time. It may also explain why there is a growing movement of unorthodox Seventh-day Adventists who are now teaching that St. Paul was a false apostle. Our observation is that it is a shameful thing that some individuals would rather give up faith in the plain Word of God than abandon a pet theological concept. A person's beliefs should be driven by Scripture instead of letting one's beliefs drive their understanding of those same Scriptures, where St. Paul and his writings are considered spurious as a result of those beliefs."
Sabbatatrians Refuted and Sabbath keepers Exposed: 2011 AD
I think you would have to agree that Seventh Day Adventism is now out of the mainstream of Pauline Christianity. Simply put, many top Adventist theologians are in agreement with you that St. Paul has to be kicked out of the Biblical Canon if Sabbath Keeping is to be supportable.
Yes, it appears that I am in general agreement with a growing number of SDA theologians on the issue of Paul & the Sabbath.
The merry-go-round continues to spin.Q1. "Observing the Sabbath is not a 'New Testament Church' Practice"
A1. False. The early post-resurrection believers gathered on Sabbath (Jn 20:19, Acts 15:21, Acts 20:7) in obedience to the commandment.
Q2. "Messiah did not expect His followers to observe Sabbath"
A2. False. If He did not expect His followers to observe Sabbath, then He would not have commanded His end-time followers to pray earnestly that they can escape from tribulation disasters and that those disasters would not occur on the Sabbath (Mt 24:20).
Q3. "Sunday, the 'Lord's Day', has replaced the Saturday Sabbath"
A3. False. Nowhere in Scripture is it written that Sunday has now replaced Saturday Sabbath. In the fourth century A.D., three hundred years after the last Apostle died, The Roman Catholic Church, on the authority of its own traditions, were the ones who changed Saturday Sabbath observance into Sunday observance. (The Protestants have carried over this tradition into their churches, being offspring of the Roman Catholic Church.) This is admitted to by a bishop of the Roman Catholic Church:
"Catholic Bishop" confessed that they change the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday - YouTube
Q4. "Keeping the Sabbath means you are trying to keep the Law and observe things that are 'finished by Messiah', which means you've fallen from Grace!"
A4. False. If this is true, then none of the other 9 commandments should be observed. Also, if this is true, then neither Easter nor Christmas should be observed either, because you are observing things that have been 'finished by Messiah'.
Q5. "Messiah broke the Sabbath, thereby demonstrating to us that we can break it too"
A5. False. Messiah corrected the Pharisees' false assumptions about the Sabbath, and demonstrated the proper observance of it, which did not exclude healing or picking and eating food on the Sabbath. If Messiah did break the Sabbath, as some claim, then He committed sin (1Jn 3:4), no longer qualifies to be the Messiah, and is thus a false Messiah!
Q6. "Trying to keep the Sabbath is a burden"
A6. "For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome." -1Jn 5:3 (RSV)
Q7. "What about all the 'first day of the week' references in the New Testament?"
A7. False translations. Let's take one example, John 20:19. In the Greek, it states that the disciples were assembled at evening on "μιᾷ τῶν σαββάτων" (mia ton sabbaton)! Mia = one, ton = of the, sabbaton = Sabbaths. The disciples gathered on "one of the Sabbaths", not on the "first day of the week". "First" is not the same as "one", "Sabbath" is not "week", and there is no equivalent to the word "day" even found in the Greek.
Q8. "Sabbath observance is for the Jews only, not for believing Gentiles"
A8. False. Messiah commanded the exact same observances for believing Jews and believing Gentiles. He commanded His twelve Jewish apostles to go and teach the Gentiles to observe everything He taught them to observe (Mt 28:18-20). The Father, YHVH, held the same position regarding the Jews and Gentiles (Ex 12:49, Lev 7:7, Lev 24:22, Num 9:14, Num 15:15,6, Num 15:29, etc.).
Q9. "We shouldn't work on Sabbath, but it doesn't say anything about worshiping on Sabbath"
A9. False. Holy convocations are commanded for the Sabbath (Lev 23:3). The believing disciples observed this commandment (Jn 20:19) on the Sabbath, gathering on their own apart from the unbelieving Jews.
(more to come ...)
until you read Acts 13 and Matt 23, and Isaiah 56 that is.
in Christ,
Bob
Actually, to be precise, I believe Paul taught both for and against observance of the Law, he being the "double minded man" which James wrote about.
Ignatius and Justin only hold authority over those who willingly consent to follow their traditions. This does not include me.
I don't know if Sunday worship and Easter celebrations began in the first year after the Resurrection. These observances are neither found in Torah nor in Messiah's instructions, and are, to me, forms of self-righteousness (as opposed to true righteousness).
In regards to my answers in the OP, I cannot speak nor am I speaking for the SDAs or any other group ... only for my own beliefs.
Yes, it appears that I am in general agreement with a growing number of SDA theologians on the issue of Paul & the Sabbath.
From what theology I've seen from SDA adherents lately I am beginning to consider the phrase "SDA theologian" an oxymoron.Yes, it appears that I am in general agreement with a growing number of SDA theologians on the issue of Paul & the Sabbath.
From what theology I've seen from SDA adherents lately I am beginning to consider the phrase "SDA theologian" an oxymoron.
There weren't any saved Jews either.Acts 13, he preached Christ! Paul was not "keeping Sabby".
Those were not saved gentiles there either...
BELIEVE IN HIM TO BE FREED, WHAT MOSES COULD NOT DO..
Acts 13:39 and by him everyone who believes is freed from everything from which you could not be freed by the law of Moses. 40 Beware, therefore, lest what is said in the Prophets should come about:
41 Look, you scoffers, be astounded and perish;
for I am doing a work in your days, a work that you will not believe, even if one tells it to you.
The work was grace...grace. not Sabbath...
And they were not saved gentiles when Paul went there, most know that some gentiles, and God fearers, and proselytes were in the gogues, but they were not saved, so who cares? What does that prove?
They will probably amend the Book of the Law, the Psalms, the prophets and the Gospels too. In practice they already do.Those "theologians" need to get rid of Luke and Peter too, because they witness Paul, big time. Remeber that post I showed you, about all of the support Luke gives about Paul. Looks like the Bible has to keep shrinking for some peoples theology to finally work out.
Please let me know if you would like me to post it, or maybe I will later anyway.
They will probably amend the Book of the Law, the Psalms, the prophets and the Gospels too. In practice they already do.
Originally Posted by BobRyan
Interesting facts listed - thanks for sharing them.
As we noticed on a number of other threads there are even some pro-Sunday sources that will admit to the fact that the 4th Commandment is still binding on all the saints as it was in Eden. (Only they would like to bend God's Commandment after the cross and point it to week-day-1 and away from "the seventh day" as HE stated it).
And then of course there are those who are simply at war with God's TEN Commandments -- all TEN.
in Christ,
Bob
Hey netzarim, weren't you a sabbatarian anti-Paul Messianic Jew not too long ago?Thank you for your support, Bob
Hey netzarim, weren't you a sabbatarian anti-Paul Messianic Jew not too long ago?
Of course the SDAs and MJs will agree with each other on the 4th Commandment.
.
Yes, I suppose calrification, would be in order, for the benefit of the thread.
Over at http://www.christianforums.com/t7817161/ I am having a discussion with an honest non-Adventist Sabbatarian who readily admits that St. Paul must be jettisoned from the Bible for Sabbath Keeping to remain sustainable.
In the meantime, Seventh Day Adventist Theologians have quietly been developing this theory for several years, while at the same time publicly twisting and torturing the Pauline Epistles to support Sabbath Keeping.
It turns out even Seventh Day Adventist Theologians that are employed by the church have long realized that the Sabbath-keeping trash you see in these forums is not supportable from the Bible.
Perhaps they are moving towards the MessianicsAmong the honest Seventh Day Adventist theologians, only two possibilities exist:
1). Reconstituting ALL of the Feast Days, monthly and yearly Sabbaths, animal sacrifices, Levitical food laws etc;
2). Jettisoning St. Paul completely and gradually joining forces with Messianic Judaism;
Perhaps they are moving towards the Messianics
As for point #1, we should diligently follow all the moedim to the best of our ability, but unfortunately, in this writer's opinion, much cannot be diligently observed due to the lack of a Temple.
I found this thread thru a link put up on another thread
http://www.christianforums.com/t7817150/#post65434569
.
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