Combating Inclusive/Progressive Christianity

[98cwitr]

Why not both? What is the building for if not evangelism?

Worship

Is it your claim that we go out into the world and sin so that we can give the gospel to the lost - and we would not want to be doing that sort of thing in our churches? or are you saying that when the lost attend an evangelistic outreach program in our church they would be doing crack-cocaine or some other sort of sin in the church?

And combat sin by preaching the Gospel, yes. Now, if you want to do that in the House of the Lord, rather than outside of it, I'd ask: Why?

the examples given on page one appear to be that of church members doing the sinning not non-Christians.

Of which I'd be all for us going back to Paul's instructions, provided to us in 1 Corinthians 5.

 

[BobRyan]

Is it your claim that we go out into the world and sin so that we can give the gospel to the lost - and we would not want to be doing that sort of thing in our churches? or are you saying that when the lost attend an evangelistic outreach program in our church they would be doing crack-cocaine or some other sort of sin in the church?

And combat sin by preaching the Gospel, yes. Now, if you want to do that in the House of the Lord, rather than outside of it, I'd ask: Why?

My vote was for evangelizing both inside and outside the church. Not "rather than".

 

[redleghunter]

And so the first thing to do was to get married. They can't go back and become virgins again.

Did not decree they somehow “get their virginity back” but show some understanding living in fornication is not acceptable by the church.

This was not some long process but based on true repentance and works reflecting repentance. They are a wonderful couple now waiting for the birth of their second child since being married.

 

[RDKirk]

Did not decree they somehow “get their virginity back” but show some understanding living in fornication is not acceptable by the church.

This was not some long process but based on true repentance and works reflecting repentance. They are a wonderful couple now waiting for the birth of their second child since being married.

What you didn't tell us about were the shacking couples given the same instructions who simply never showed up again.

 

[redleghunter]

What you didn't tell us about were the shacking couples given the same instructions who simply never showed up again.

Last check the only church partners we “lose” are military families who PCS elsewhere and we equip them to find a like church in the next military community. Many come back to the huge “Great Place” as we have a full Division and Cavalry Regiment here.

And the others we have “lost” are part of our new church plants.

I Learned three years ago the difference between church membership and church partnership. In partnership people want to be there and active in church ministries, church community ministries and missionary efforts. Having ministries for those who have struggles and seeing the body shoulder those burdens is quite beautiful to see in action. Praise be to God.

 

[Halbhh]

I share the OP's frustrations with progressive Christians. It's hard for me to even consider them such, but I believe if they are in an environment with practicing Christians, their minds and hearts can be changed. I dread the future of churches that may get forced to change their beliefs due to secular pressure. But Jesus said that it is the sick that need a doctor, not the healthy. Sinners must populate the church, even if they're unrepentant, because it is through us that the Holy Spirit can lead them to repentance.

Someone said the key thing. ^^^

A church isn't where you get rid of the people you don't like. It's where you (sacrificially at times) love others and testify about Christ.

 

[NeedyFollower]

Is your church full of broken homes, divorcees, fatherless children who are not orphaned, openly gay deacons, and performing same-sex marriages? Mine is.

I believe this was predicted in 2nd Timothy Chapter 3 . It is called " having a form of Godliness " We love the institution more than the Truth, for it ( the institution) is comfortable and familiar whereas Abraham's journey was very unfamiliar . If the Father sent Jesus , God's word into a human body as I believe , ( according to John 12:49 ) that also was unfamiliar for it had never been done before . Faith is difficult while a mental assent ( belief ) is easy .
What you are describing can be easily done one the days in which you gather ( Sunday Morning , Sunday evening and Wednesday evenings ) But how about a radically different life than society every day ? Jesus was not a rebel but His life and teachings appeared radical to those going in an opposite direction .
It is not lost on me that Jesus tells the various churches to repent in revelation . We are told to go and make disciples from among all nations , teaching them to observe all that He commanded . He did not tell us to fix the world through politics, financial collusion , war and nation building .

 

[Halbhh]

I believe this was predicted in 2nd Timothy Chapter 3 . It is called " having a form of Godliness " We love the institution more than the Truth, for it ( the institution) is comfortable and familiar whereas Abraham's journey was very unfamiliar . If the Father sent Jesus , God's word into a human body as I believe , ( according to John 12:49 ) that also was unfamiliar for it had never been done before . Faith is difficult while a mental assent ( belief ) is easy .
What you are describing can be easily done one the days in which you gather ( Sunday Morning , Sunday evening and Wednesday evenings ) But how about a radically different life than society every day ? Jesus was not a rebel but His life and teachings appeared radical to those going in an opposite direction .
It is not lost on me that Jesus tells the various churches to repent in revelation . We are told to go and make disciples from among all nations , teaching them to observe all that He commanded . He did not tell us to fix the world through politics, financial collusion , war and nation building .

You know, your post perhaps helped force us to remember....

We can simply remember what Christ said, instead of all our mere personal opinions....

So, to the OP question --

Let's listen to what Christ said, instead of our own tendencies.

Next post:

 

[Halbhh]

Christ already anticipated this fully, perfectly.

He knew that every church would always soon have this situation. Every. Including your proposed new one ==

The Parable of the Weeds

24 Jesus told them another parable: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. 25 But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. 26 When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared.

27 “The owner’s servants came to him and said, ‘Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?’

28 “ ‘An enemy did this,’ he replied.

“The servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’

29“ ‘No,’ he answered, ‘because while you are pulling the weeds, you may uproot the wheat with them. 30Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.’ ”

So, there we have His answer, better than any of our own.

It would seem to me that we are past a certain point of no return regarding church policy and direction. While I could go into the details about how our seminaries are overrun with these ideologies, I think that's a different discussion and objective. What does seem to be the case is that fundamentalism, even in basic forms such as biblical inerrancy, have been cast aside to ensure that churches are accepted by the world, bolster their member numbers simply by inviting the world in and telling them exactly what they'd rather hear than what Scripture states.

So, brainstorming on this as of yesterday, I wonder what the community would think or say if a church sprang up with the following mission statement:

We exist and gather, in the Name of God, to adhere to biblical principles set forth by Jesus Christ and the Apostles. In doing so, we reject all invitation to the world, its evils and those who seek to work it among the People of God (2 Samuel 23:6, 1 Corinthians 5, James 1:26-27). Therefore, we invite only those who consider themselves to be actively Called, possessing of righteous desire the learn and be healed from their sins, who seek repentance and the Face of the Lord, and those reborn of Spirit and in Christ (1 Chronicles 16:11, Psalm 27:8, Hosea 5:15, Luke 5:32, John 3:1-20). Those who have no desire to seek God, who have no intention of repentance, may request prayer for a new heart (Ezekiel 36, Jeremiah 31) from our pastor, but should know that this Place is Holy Ground, and therefore we reject any permit for evil to dwell within the House of the Lord.

While this may sound harsh to many, is this what is really needed to regain holiness within our churches? Should we go back to expulsions as instructed by Paul in 1 Corinthians 5, and only readmit under the evidence of sincere repentance.

It would seem to me that inclusive Christianity is becoming so inclusive they'd openly invite the devil in if he weren't already there.

Or...are most churches now country clubs and simple self-help groups?

 

[grandvizier1006]

Well, that's not really the main reason. There is a main reason.

Or reasons plural really. We should not emphasize just even one main reason and leave out other main reasons. There is an especially central reason though.

Most of all, for this reason:

And combine this main reason with the 2nd big reason: that non-denominational very large churches are drawing in a lot of the younger generation, so that older existing churches are then of course not seeing so many of their own younger generations stay, since they left to go to the nearby mega church.

Put those 2 things together, and you have the main reasons. What you were pointing to is very much a side issue compared to these huge forces.

Here's an example: if you go to a 'conservative' chruch that is small and old, it will lose younger generations to nearby mega churches also, if there are any nearby.

There are some exceptions. Our own 'liberal' (not in reality though) ELCA Lutheran Church has lost some numbers due to the gradual aging out of the older generations that attended church even if they did not believe -- both the believers and the non-believers attended.

And we've lost some younger people to the nearby mega churches.

But....we've been growing in young families over the last several years I've seen since we joined this church about 9 years ago. The number of youth K-5th grade has roughly tripled. Going up 300% bodes well for this little church (that some would falsely label "liberal", not knowing any better). Praise the Lord.

You seem to think that a denomination that endorses homosexuality isn’t liberal...? Or are you using the word differently?

 

[Halbhh]

You seem to think that a denomination that endorses homosexuality isn’t liberal...? Or are you using the word differently?

Sorry, I don't follow. But if you mean is the ELCA 'liberal' well the answer is 'not really' Not in actual reality that isn't an ideological misconception. We are very likely to be more conservative in the true meaning of the word than about 99% of churches that aren't named 'Catholic' or 'Orthodox' really. Catholics say (I know several) that our services are identical to theirs.

(It's highly trivial, but could help some, to know that our congregation mostly will vote republican. (but we do have democrats also. We are truly diverse) To me, that's how-they-vote isn't really that important. I'm just trying to help those that might have mistaken misimpressions)

One person tried to make a joke about replacing imagined magazines in our pews with bibles. Little did he know....lol, it's almost a certainty that our church reads more and longer passages in the bible every Sunday than his, and of course is chock full of bibles, and such. There's such a vast difference between the wrong impressions people get and the actual real life reality....)

 

[grandvizier1006]

Sorry, I don't follow. But if you mean is the ELCA 'liberal' well the answer is 'not really' Not in actual reality that isn't an ideological misconception. We are very likely to be more conservative in the true meaning of the word than about 99% of churches that aren't named 'Catholic' or 'Orthodox' really. Catholics say (I know several) that our services are identical to theirs.

(It's highly trivial, but could help some, to know that our congregation mostly will vote republican. (but we do have democrats also. We are truly diverse) To me, that's how-they-vote isn't really that important. I'm just trying to help those that might have mistaken misimpressions)

One person tried to make a joke about replacing imagined magazines in our pews with bibles. Little did he know....lol, it's almost a certainty that our church reads more and longer passages in the bible every Sunday than his, and of course is chock full of bibles, and such. There's such a vast difference between the wrong impressions people get and the actual real life reality....)

So you consider your church “conservative” because of practices rather than beliefs? Considering God judges the heart and not the outward appearance...

 

[Halbhh]

So you consider your church “conservative” because of practices rather than beliefs? Considering God judges the heart and not the outward appearance...

Then you should be encouraged at us. Why don't you visit one of our churches for a normal Sunday service?

Find out how we actually are, first hand. Not that every congregation is the same. Visit 2 if you want.

 

[grandvizier1006]

Then you should be encouraged at us. Why don't you visit one of our churches for a normal Sunday service?

Find out how we actually are, first hand. Not that every congregation is the same. Visit 2 if you want.

I appreciate the invitation, but I can’t regularly attend a church that endorses homosexuality even if it’s congregation supposedly doesn’t.

 

[redleghunter]

I appreciate the invitation, but I can’t regularly attend a church that endorses homosexuality even if it’s congregation supposedly doesn’t.

Yes their position is quite clear:

[6] Homosexual sex doesn't violate Jesus' principles of unconditional love and forgiveness any more than heterosexual sex does. Both homosexuals and heterosexuals deceive and manipulate each other, both have committed long term relationships, and both engage in prostitution, fornication and adultery. Using Jesus' ethic, heterosexual sex is moral when it involves unconditional love, when it is free from deceit and manipulation and when any resulting children are loved and cared for. Using that ethic, homosexual sex is also moral under the same circumstances. There is no reason to believe that homosexuals as a class are any more deceitful and manipulative than heterosexuals are. Deceit, manipulation and self interest are part of everyone's nature.


The Church and Homosexuality

 

[Halbhh]

I appreciate the invitation, but I can’t regularly attend a church that endorses homosexuality even if it’s congregation supposedly doesn’t.

We don't. Not to my knowledge.

And we won't ask your sins either.

But, we do encourage all to join in the confession.

And we do invite sinners to come and find Christ here.

 

[Halbhh]

Yes their position is quite clear:

[6] Homosexual sex doesn't violate Jesus' principles of unconditional love and forgiveness any more than heterosexual sex does. Both homosexuals and heterosexuals deceive and manipulate each other, both have committed long term relationships, and both engage in prostitution, fornication and adultery. Using Jesus' ethic, heterosexual sex is moral when it involves unconditional love, when it is free from deceit and manipulation and when any resulting children are loved and cared for. Using that ethic, homosexual sex is also moral under the same circumstances. There is no reason to believe that homosexuals as a class are any more deceitful and manipulative than heterosexuals are. Deceit, manipulation and self interest are part of everyone's nature.


The Church and Homosexuality

Today's not at our church. Maybe you should be more cautious.

But do you acknowledge on the other hand that there are people that sin in your church?

I'm expecting the real rate over a year is 99-100%

And, just in case there is any ELCA church near you, you could you find out in person what our services are like. That'd be great.

 

[Albion]

So you consider your church “conservative” because of practices rather than beliefs? .

That's the way it appeared to me when I read it.

We know that to be "conservative" can also mean to be old-fashioned or stingy or such, but I am sure that the discussion wasn't aimed at this.

 

[Halbhh]

I think this discussion is going wrong, as slander and wrongfully judging are sins. And I don't want to give extra opportunity to do that to any. Best to go to 1rst John chapter 1 and apply what's there.

God bless you all. We have guests arriving in a minute. Have a good evening!

 

[grandvizier1006]

We don't. Not to my knowledge.

And we won't ask your sins either.

But, we do encourage all to join in the confession.

And we do invite sinners to come and find Christ here.

That’s good. Nevertheless, I wouldn’t feel comfortable in a church belonging to a denomination that endorses homosexuality. The church I’m going to right now doesn’t, and I’ve received a lot of genuine love from a few people after I told them about my same-sex attractions and porn struggles. I’m trying to put to death my sin and having to contend with people that answer to other people that endorse it wouldn’t be helpful for me.

Also, I didn’t grow up in liturgical churches, but that’s a relatively minor issue compared to the ELCA’s general endorsement of homosexuality.