Combating Inclusive/Progressive Christianity

[98cwitr]

It would seem to me that we are past a certain point of no return regarding church policy and direction. While I could go into the details about how our seminaries are overrun with these ideologies, I think that's a different discussion and objective. What does seem to be the case is that fundamentalism, even in basic forms such as biblical inerrancy, have been cast aside to ensure that churches are accepted by the world, bolster their member numbers simply by inviting the world in and telling them exactly what they'd rather hear than what Scripture states.

So, brainstorming on this as of yesterday, I wonder what the community would think or say if a church sprang up with the following mission statement:

We exist and gather, in the Name of God, to adhere to biblical principles set forth by Jesus Christ and the Apostles. In doing so, we reject all invitation to the world, its evils and those who seek to work it among the People of God (2 Samuel 23:6, 1 Corinthians 5, James 1:26-27). Therefore, we invite only those who consider themselves to be actively Called, possessing of righteous desire to learn and be healed from their sins, who seek repentance and the Face of the Lord, and those reborn of Spirit and in Christ (1 Chronicles 16:11, Psalm 27:8, Hosea 5:15, Luke 5:32, John 3:1-20). Those who have no desire to seek God, who have no intention of repentance, may request prayer for a new heart (Ezekiel 36, Jeremiah 31) from our pastor, but should know that this Place is Holy Ground, and therefore we reject any permit for evil to dwell within the House of the Lord.

While this may sound harsh to many, is this what is really needed to regain holiness within our churches? Should we go back to expulsions as instructed by Paul in 1 Corinthians 5, and only readmit under the evidence of sincere repentance.

It would seem to me that inclusive Christianity is becoming so inclusive they'd openly invite the devil in if he weren't already there.

Or...are most churches now country clubs and simple self-help groups?

 

[The Liturgist]

It would seem to me that we are past a certain point of no return regarding church policy and direction. While I could go into the details about how our seminaries are overrun with these ideologies, I think that's a different discussion and objective. What does seem to be the case is that fundamentalism, even in basic forms such as biblical inerrancy, have been cast aside to ensure that churches are accepted by the world, bolster their member numbers simply by inviting the world in and telling them exactly what they'd rather hear than what Scripture states.

So, brainstorming on this as of yesterday, I wonder what the community would think or say if a church sprang up with the following mission statement:

We exist and gather, in the Name of God, to adhere to biblical principles set forth by Jesus Christ and the Apostles. In doing so, we reject all invitation to the world, its evils and those who seek to work it among the People of God (2 Samuel 23:6, 1 Corinthians 5, James 1:26-27). Therefore, we invite only those who consider themselves to be actively Called, possessing of righteous desire the learn and be healed from their sins, who seek repentance and the Face of the Lord, and those reborn of Spirit and in Christ (1 Chronicles 16:11, Psalm 27:8, Hosea 5:15, Luke 5:32, John 3:1-20). Those who have no desire to seek God, who have no intention of repentance, may request prayer for a new heart (Ezekiel 36, Jeremiah 31) from our pastor, but should know that this Place is Holy Ground, and therefore we reject any permit for evil to dwell within the House of the Lord.

While this may sound harsh to many, is this what is really needed to regain holiness within our churches? Should we go back to expulsions as instructed by Paul in 1 Corinthians 5, and only readmit under the evidence of sincere repentance.

Or...are most churches now country clubs and simple self-help groups?

This is a good question. The irony is that the more worldly churches are also the ones shrinking. The UCC is the most liberal church in the US, and has experienced a spectacular rate of decline, even compared to the Episcopal church. It is extremely sad. I feel like saying to some of these pastors “Since your faith is clearly Unitarian Universalist, why don’t you go work for that church rather than trying to ruin this one?”

 

[Sketcher]

1) You ask about regaining holiness - but how holy is holy enough to know when holiness has been gained or regained?

2) How do you avoid turning such a church into a country club?

3) Why would any humble seeker consider themselves called already? Many will think they are too dirty to step foot in any church.

 

[Albion]

This is a good question. The irony is that the more worldly churches are also the ones shrinking. The UCC is the most liberal church in the US, and has experienced a spectacular rate of decline, even compared to the Episcopal church. It is extremely sad. I feel like saying to some of these pastors “Since your faith is clearly Unitarian Universalist, why don’t you go work for that church rather than trying to ruin this one?”

Hi. Is it fair to ask which church is your own? We get so many people now who simply choose "Christian" and it leads to some confusion when reading their posts. For me at least.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Should we go back to expulsions as instructed by Paul in 1 Corinthians 5, and only readmit under the evidence of sincere repentance.

"We", few groups of Ekklesia, never left obedience this way.
i.e. still going forward, day after day,
not in the error of disobedience,
so not "going back" to obedience, ......

 

[The Liturgist]

Hi. Is it fair to ask which church is your own? We get so many people now who simply choose "Christian" and it leads to some confusion when reading their posts. For me at least.

Well, I was UCC, and I am aiming for the CCCC; I consider myself a traditional Congregationalist. There are a few other options. I might even try to find some lingering vitality remaining in the UCC, but since the Faithful and Welcoming group of traditional churches stalled, its become very difficult for a traditional Christian minister in that denomination. There are UCC congregations which teach doctrines which I find revolting, and it breaks my heart. So I am basically a clergyman in transition from a denomination that I couldn’t tolerate any further, due to widespread failures of evangelization engendered by extremely perverse theological influences, looking to stay as close to that as possible, and that is probably going to be the Conservative Congregational Christian Conference, or 4C. Their flagship parish is Park Street Church in Boston, which I have always been very fond of; whereas all the other historic churches in Boston are either ultra-left wing UCC, or apostate Unitarian, or are else, for example, Old North Church, being run as glorified tourist attractions, Park Street Church remains a vibrant center for the preaching of the gospel. The services aren’t quite as thoroughly traditional as I would prefer, but they aren’t objectionable, either.

 

[topher694]

It would seem to me that we are past a certain point of no return regarding church policy and direction. While I could go into the details about how our seminaries are overrun with these ideologies, I think that's a different discussion and objective. What does seem to be the case is that fundamentalism, even in basic forms such as biblical inerrancy, have been cast aside to ensure that churches are accepted by the world, bolster their member numbers simply by inviting the world in and telling them exactly what they'd rather hear than what Scripture states.

So, brainstorming on this as of yesterday, I wonder what the community would think or say if a church sprang up with the following mission statement:

We exist and gather, in the Name of God, to adhere to biblical principles set forth by Jesus Christ and the Apostles. In doing so, we reject all invitation to the world, its evils and those who seek to work it among the People of God (2 Samuel 23:6, 1 Corinthians 5, James 1:26-27). Therefore, we invite only those who consider themselves to be actively Called, possessing of righteous desire the learn and be healed from their sins, who seek repentance and the Face of the Lord, and those reborn of Spirit and in Christ (1 Chronicles 16:11, Psalm 27:8, Hosea 5:15, Luke 5:32, John 3:1-20). Those who have no desire to seek God, who have no intention of repentance, may request prayer for a new heart (Ezekiel 36, Jeremiah 31) from our pastor, but should know that this Place is Holy Ground, and therefore we reject any permit for evil to dwell within the House of the Lord.

While this may sound harsh to many, is this what is really needed to regain holiness within our churches? Should we go back to expulsions as instructed by Paul in 1 Corinthians 5, and only readmit under the evidence of sincere repentance.

Or...are most churches now country clubs and simple self-help groups?

I get what you are saying, and I agree with the sentiment 100%. But I think the tone of what you highlighted would probably be counter productive. Most of what Jesus did to set the standard for us was demonstrate the correct way and/or highlight the correct vs the incorrect.

For example, I've heard people sometimes say Jesus never had stance on homosexual marriage. But that's not true. Rather than highlight the wrong behavior, Jesus Highlighted the correct behavior. He defined marriage between one man and one woman by reaffirming what was already written (Matt 19). He could have said same-sex marriage is bad in some way, but instead He talked about what was good.

Now, I know that this wasn't always the case, but often when Jesus directly confronted what was incorrect it was one of two scenarios: One, when it manifest in His presence (but even then not always). And two, in more private times when He was teaching His disciples.

So, back to the original question. I think it is wise for the public face of a church to focus on the Good News. There is always a way to make a strong stance known by affirming what is right rather than criticizing what is wrong. I believe it is more effective to demonstrate what is true than try to spend a lot of effort trying point out what is false. HOWEVER, when confronted, and/or in discipleship (in which I would include weekly preaching), it is ok, even good, to confront wrong behavior, as long as right behavior is highlighted along side of it.

At my church we love on people and try to build a atmosphere of family and community. I don't go looking to confront all the worldly issues just because I disagree with them. Instead, I focus on Godly principles... on correct behavior. However, such principles naturally conflict with the world, so I confront the worldly stuff as it relates to Godly principles, and I don't sugar coat it.

In doing so this is what I find: Some of the people & behaviors you (and I) find so frustrating do walk through our doors, but what happens is they simply can't handle it for long. I'm not telling them what they want to hear, or what the world says they should hear... yet, it is a friendly, warm, loving environment where the presence of God cannot be denied... they find themselves forced to make a decision, not by me, but just by the atmosphere of the church and presence of God. 1) they have to leave because they can't handle the conviction. Or, 2) They have to (begin to) change. And sometimes I'm surprised at who chooses which path.

In other words, if you take the right approach, the problem takes care of itself without a harsh mission statement required.

 

[98cwitr]

1) You ask about regaining holiness - but how holy is holy enough to know when holiness has been gained or regained

Great question; and hence the two-foldedness of it: desire to genuinely seek OR those reborn in Christ.

2) How do you avoid turning such a church into a country club?

Avoid focusing on numbers and money.

3) Why would any humble seeker consider themselves called already? Many will think they are too dirty to step foot in any church.

Because they have questions, as I did when I was 25 and came back.

 

[Albion]

Well, I was UCC, and I am aiming for the CCCC; I consider myself a traditional Congregationalist.

Okay. And "thank you."

There are a few other options. I might even try to find some lingering vitality remaining in the UCC, but since the Faithful and Welcoming group of traditional churches stalled, its become very difficult for a traditional Christian minister in that denomination. There are UCC congregations which teach doctrines which I find revolting, and it breaks my heart. So I am basically a clergyman in transition from a denomination that I couldn’t tolerate any further, due to widespread failures of evangelization engendered by extremely perverse theological influences, looking to stay as close to that as possible, and that is probably going to be the Conservative Congregational Christian Conference, or 4C.

Understood.

 

[98cwitr]

I get what you are saying, and I agree with the sentiment 100%. But I think the tone of what you highlighted would probably be counter productive. Most of what Jesus did to set the standard for us was demonstrate the correct way and/or highlight the correct vs the incorrect.

For example, I've heard people sometimes say Jesus never had stance on homosexual marriage. But that's not true. Rather than highlight the wrong behavior, Jesus Highlighted the correct behavior. He defined marriage between one man and one woman by reaffirming what was already written (Matt 19). He could have said same-sex marriage is bad in some way, but instead He talked about what was good.

Now, I know that this wasn't always the case, but often when Jesus directly confronted what was incorrect it was one of two scenarios: One, when it manifest in His presence (but even then not always). And two, in more private times when He was teaching His disciples.

So, back to the original question. I think it is wise for the public face of a church to focus on the Good News. There is always a way to make a strong stance known by affirming what is right rather than criticizing what is wrong. I believe it is more effective to demonstrate what is true than try to spend a lot of effort trying point out what is false. HOWEVER, when confronted, and/or in discipleship (in which I would include weekly preaching), it is ok, even good, to confront wrong behavior, as long as right behavior is highlighted along side of it.

At my church we love on people and try to build a atmosphere of family and community. I don't go looking to confront all the worldly issues just because I disagree with them. Instead, I focus on Godly principles... on correct behavior. However, such principles naturally conflict with the world, so I confront the worldly stuff as it relates to Godly principles, and I don't sugar coat it.

In doing so this is what I find: Some of the people & behaviors you (and I) find so frustrating do walk through our doors, but what happens is they simply can't handle it for long. I'm not telling them what they want to hear, or what the world says they should hear... yet, it is a friendly, warm, loving environment where the presence of God cannot be denied... they find themselves forced to make a decision, not by me, but just by the atmosphere of the church and presence of God. 1) they have to leave because they can't handle the conviction. Or, 2) They have to (begin to) change. And sometimes I'm surprised at who chooses which path.

In other words, if you take the right approach, the problem takes care of itself without a harsh mission statement required.

Is your church full of broken homes, divorcees, fatherless children who are not orphaned, openly gay deacons, and performing same-sex marriages? Mine is.

 

[Tigger45]

I.attend a non-political church congregation and wouldn't have it any other way. I've also attended both far right and left preaching congregations and felt both were using the pulpit to spread their specific ideologies at the expense of the Gospel. That being said I'm not foolish enough to believe that once the far left are finished attacking more conservative congregations that they wouldn't target everyone that isn't in lock step with their ideologies.

 

[topher694]

Is your church full of broken homes, divorcees, fatherless children who are not orphaned, openly gay deacons, and performing same-sex marriages? Mine is.

I can't control how people come in, but I can help empower them to walk out better.

Some broken homes... but many have been healed and restored to the degree that it is possible. We have some amazing testimonies in this regard.

Some divorcees and some very long marriages. We believe and seek reconciliation wherever possible, and where it is not I always encourage people to it's not about where they were, it's about where they are and where they are going... learn from your mistakes, overcome and continue to grow in Christ.

Some fatherless children who are not orphaned. I make it my mission to be a small form of a Godly father figure to those kids. Teaching them to honor and respect their mother and love the Lord. They are awesome kids and I adore them.

No openly gay deacons. Never going to happen.

No same-sex marriages. Also never going to happen.

We do inner healing and deliverance, but that only works if the recipient truly wants to be set free.

I also have a dis-proportionally high number of people that have been to prison. And I love them all. There's something about people who have been down that path who then give there heart completely to the Lord. There's a passion and zeal in them I wish more Christians would demonstrate.

 

[Tolworth John]

what is really needed to regain holiness within our churches?

Either the Holy Spirit enpowering people in the church to live as Christians.
or
Christians being bold enough to take God at his word and to live for him, as he says to love your neighbour, that is, the people you cannot stand and loath as you love your self.

 

[Sketcher]

Is your church full of broken homes, divorcees, fatherless children who are not orphaned, openly gay deacons, and performing same-sex marriages? Mine is.

At some point you're going to have to be open to accepting the broken and bringing them into full life with Christ.

A church that doesn't attract divorcees, single parents, children from broken homes, and gays needs to. They need to be reached with the Good News. This isn't to say the church should facilitate same-sex marraiges or remarraiges by the divorced, or should not help families stay together. And deacons and elders and pastors of course must not be involved in same-sex relationships, or adulterous relationships.

Have you read Ephesians 4 and Colossians 3 lately to see what problems still existed in the early church when Paul was clearly writing to saved people?

 

[bling]

What we might need is severe persecution like you might find in Communist China.

 

[The Liturgist]

Is your church full of broken homes, divorcees, fatherless children who are not orphaned, openly gay deacons, and performing same-sex marriages? Mine is.

That’s very said. American Baptist Convention?

In the UCC alas there is openly gay everything. Its so sad, the “Cathedral of Hope,” in Dallas, the largest homosexual church in the US, broke away from its homosexual denomination, the Metropolitan Community Church, and joined the UCC; I feel very sorry for those people, but I can’t help them in an environment where there is no call for repentance. Broken homes and the adultery problem fit the same bill.

 

[The Liturgist]

What we might need is severe persecution like you might find in Communist China.

We do not need that...

 

[98cwitr]

What we might need is severe persecution like you might find in Communist China.

Rather OT, but I'll bite:

Nah, I'm not for allowing us to destroy everyone's human rights under the boot of man. God grants us liberal ability to make choices within our nature, and therefore we should treat our fellow man the same way IMO.

 

[98cwitr]

That’s very said. American Baptist Convention?

In the UCC alas there is openly gay everything. Its so sad, the “Cathedral of Hope,” in Dallas, the largest homosexual church in the US, broke away from its homosexual denomination, the Metropolitan Community Church, and joined the UCC; I feel very sorry for those people, but I can’t help them in an environment where there is no call for repentance. Broken homes and the adultery problem fit the same bill.

CBF: Cooperative Baptist Fellowship – Forming Together

 

[bling]

We do not need that...

The unrestored churches in China are growing rapidly and the first century church grow rapidly under a harsh government.