Combating Inclusive/Progressive Christianity

[section9+1]

How long is "too long?" I missed that verse.

The point where God gives up on you. The world lives and thrives in too many churches. Christianity demands a person changes. The "Church" contains sinners but it contains repentant sinners. You are a lost sheep who has been found by his shepherd or else you are a wolf or dog or serpent or swine. None of them need or want a shepherd.

 

[98cwitr]

The point where God gives up on you. The world lives and thrives in too many churches. Christianity demands a person changes. The "Church" contains sinners but it contains repentant sinners. You are a lost sheep who has been found by his shepherd or else you are a wolf or dog or serpent or swine. None of them need or want a shepherd.

*Were lost* but now found. Verb tenses are gravely important to this discussion.

"None of them need or want a shepherd"

That's simply untrue; I need Christ, the Good Shepherd.

 

[RDKirk]

So, back to the original question. I think it is wise for the public face of a church to focus on the Good News. There is always a way to make a strong stance known by affirming what is right rather than criticizing what is wrong. I believe it is more effective to demonstrate what is true than try to spend a lot of effort trying point out what is false. HOWEVER, when confronted, and/or in discipleship (in which I would include weekly preaching), it is ok, even good, to confront wrong behavior, as long as right behavior is highlighted along side of it.

At my church we love on people and try to build a atmosphere of family and community. I don't go looking to confront all the worldly issues just because I disagree with them. Instead, I focus on Godly principles... on correct behavior. However, such principles naturally conflict with the world, so I confront the worldly stuff as it relates to Godly principles, and I don't sugar coat it.

One congregation I attended had a rather deliberate 3-stage approach.

The Sunday morning services were a form of outreach specifically designed for visitors, non-Christian invitees, people who might be interested, et cetera. The Sunday morning service was the service you invited friends to attend. The form of worship, the songs that were sung, the message that was given was for that group of people. The message was more basic gospel ("Come unto Me all who are heavy-laden....") salvation. It was not designed for the card-carrying, enrolled membership. However, it was a responsibility for the enrolled membership attend as a matter of outreach support. Sunday morning was more "Books of the Gospel."

The Sunday evening service was designed specifically for enrolled members. That was the service where communion was given, offerings were taken, the message was more instructional and directed toward mission, fellowship, and sanctification. Sunday evening was the discussion of congregational finances and business, when opinions were sought and votes were taken. Sunday evening was where the charisma might be exhibited. Sunday evening was more "Letters of the Apostles."

Then there were the small group meetings. Those were a continuation of the Sunday evening premise with more personal interactions: Testimonies, confessions, prayers for personal issues.

 

[RDKirk]

The unrestored churches in China are growing rapidly and the first century church grow rapidly under a harsh government.

Ideally, the Body of Christ need only the "benign neglect" of the earthly government. That is, in fact, what we are explicitly instructed to pray for:

I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people--for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness.--1 Timothy 2

However, it is true that Satan operates more easily under the cover of chaos, and we see in history and today that the Church grows better in an orderly society than in chaos, even when the government of that orderly society is oppressive.

That is why the Church is growing in China and North Korea (it has grown ten-fold in North Korea since the mid-90s), but not in South Sudan.

However, it is a dangerous situation when an earthly government makes a social advantage of Church membership. The Church should always be in tension even with a benign earthly government. If the government makes Church membership a social advantage, people will join for the social advantage, not for the sake of salvation.

That is the problem pointed out by the radical Puritan cleric Roger Williams 'way back in 1644. That's why he founded the colony of Rhode Island as the first colony with absolutely no coercion or social advantage to become a Christian. He want only those in the pews who had been enabled by the Father to accept the Gospel.

 

[RDKirk]

Well let's talk about fornication in general which is not against the site rules. My pastor was approached by a young couple (man and woman) who wanted to get married. When they applied for the pre-marriage counseling he noticed they had the same address. He confronted them, they admitted they lived together and were sexually active. My pastor said he would not marry them until (1) they lived at separate abodes, (2) repented for their fornication and co-habitation, (3) went through the marriage counseling and (4) demonstrated they were not 'going through the numbers' to get married in the church and (5) brought the matter to the sitting elders.

Do you think the pastor overstepped his position as shepherd of the flock?

Oh and the couple did repent, moved to separate abodes and satisfied the sitting elders and pastor's requests. Which I applauded as many young couples would have just gone to another church which allowed co-habitation, fornication etc.

I agree with the sentiment but disagree with the pastor's approach.

He basically required them to clean themselves up before letting Christ wash them: Sanctification before salvation.

The pastor should have instructed them that cohabitation is incompatible with the Christian life (as is many, many things). The fact that they were seeking marriage likely means they already understood that, but clarification would not have been out of hand.

But:

They tie up heavy, cumbersome loads and put them on other people's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them. -- Matthew 23

Was the congregation willing to help the couple overcome the financial burden of setting up separate living arrangements when within a few weeks they'd be moving back in together? Breaking lease agreements? Establishing new lease agreements, then breaking them again? Moving once, then moving again?

Or, rather, would it have been better for the pastor to hasten the process, advise them to skip any expensive sham of a wedding, and establish the marriage quickly or break up the couple entirely?

 

[smithed64]

Great post.
This is all biblical. But there is an answer.

2 Timothy 4:1-5
I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom: preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths. But you, be sober in all things, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.

As ministers of the church. This is but a scratch to what we should be doing.
Church discipline is mandated, not requested.
Adherence to God's Word is commanded, not requested.
Loving our enemies and those who hate us, required of us.
Never giving in to Satan and His lies. No excuse in doing so.
Preach the Gospel, at all times.
Preach Sin, redemption and eternal life.

Satan is out to steal, kill and destroy the church.

I No longer go by the moniker of "Christian". I am a Child of God. That's what God calls us.
It was man that gave the "Christian" title to us from out of Antioch...and it wasn't used in a nice way.

Besides, everybody an their brother call themselves christian today. Many don't even believe in Christ. That one I can't figure out yet.

I'm old fashioned Fundy...yep remember being called that many times.
Pentecostal. Not Oneness....have to say that these days...sad.

The church needs to get back to the Word of God. Every question brought up that is liberal or questionable on Living for Christ should be brought up to the Word of God.
If He says, No... We say NO...not maybe we think better than God..or we are worried about hurting so and so's feelings. The absolute truth is given to us through the Word of God. Absolute Truth, trumps feelings any day of the week.

Even Christ judged what He saw. He wasn't kind to those who desecrated the temple, those money lenders and such. He personally went out and created the whip himself, he then went walked in Himself and cleaned house. Yet he did not sin.

We also need to back into the working and gifts of the Holy Ghost. He brings conviction, not us. He brings comfort, he helps us to discern things.

Being wishy washy isn't being a Child of God. We love all. We love them so much that we will drop to our knees and pray fervently for their souls.

“If sinners be damned, at least let them leap to Hell over our dead bodies. And if they perish, let them perish with our arms wrapped about their knees, imploring them to stay. If Hell must be filled, let it be filled in the teeth of our exertions, and let not one go unwarned and unprayed for.”
― Charles Spurgeon

 

[section9+1]

How long is "too long?" I missed that verse.

The point where God gives up on you. The world lives and thrives in too many churches. Christianity demands a person changes. The "Church" contains sinners but it contains repentant sinners. You are a lost sheep who has been found by his shepherd or else you are a wolf or dog or serpent or swine. None of them need or want a shepherd.

*Were lost* but now found. Verb tenses are gravely important to this discussion.

"None of them need or want a shepherd"

That's simply untrue; I need Christ, the Good Shepherd.

When you repented and encountered Christ you became a lost sheep of Israel who needed finding so he found you. Wolves, etc. are not lost sheep. They don't become one until they need Christ. No one who has no hope or desire for a shepherd needs one, neither will he get one. Wolves are lost outside until they transform into sheep. And if they remain wolves they remain right outside where they belong without a shepherd. All things work together for our good as Christians. Opening up the sheepfold to wolves is never good. It doesn't say all things work together for good for everyone. Only for the Christians' good. Only sheep need a shepherd and it is only sheep that he came for. He never came for wolves.

 

[jahel]

You know what is damned? Flesh that is not in keeping with Spirit. In a nutshell. So you choose if you want to follow the flesh or the Spirit because each will absorb itself into each.

That is fundamental to the truth. If you don’t like it don’t be fundamental. If you can’t lift above the elementais, don’t call yourself a teacher~!!!!

 

[lismore]

It would seem to me that we are past a certain point of no return regarding church policy and direction.

Hello! I agree with you that the church needs to stand for the truth and that church policy should be inline with the truths of scripture. This is imperative in the days we are living. However we should always remember to speak the truth with gentleness and respect. And before the church speaks the truth is it time for repentance so that times of refreshing come from the Lord and we can speak life in the Holy Spirit and not death in the dead letter of legalism.

A pitfall to avoid is speaking out against homosexuality while at the same time being entangled in middle-class churchy sins like cliques, cronyism and materialism. Judgement begins in the house of God, first we should repent and then raise a banner for our Lord. God Bless

 

[Elisha's Bear]

You are a lost sheep who has been found by his shepherd or else you are a wolf or dog or serpent or swine. None of them need or want a shepherd.

They all need and are often drawn to want a shepherd.

There must decency and order in the church as per scripture, but proper discipline does not come natural to sinners, even those of the "repentant" variety. Like the casting out of demons it requires great preparation, which many a church administrator is unwilling to do. Also, as per Scripture (but unlike the casting out of demons), it is meant to be redemptive in nature. This is nearly always discarded or neglected. Discipling must come before discipline, because withdrawals (rebuke; censure) always require sufficient deposits (love) to ensure reserves (redemptive ability).

 

[redleghunter]

I agree with the sentiment but disagree with the pastor's approach.

He basically required them to clean themselves up before letting Christ wash them: Sanctification before salvation.

The pastor should have instructed them that cohabitation is incompatible with the Christian life (as is many, many things). The fact that they were seeking marriage likely means they already understood that, but clarification would not have been out of hand.

But:

They tie up heavy, cumbersome loads and put them on other people's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them. -- Matthew 23

Was the congregation willing to help the couple overcome the financial burden of setting up separate living arrangements when within a few weeks they'd be moving back in together? Breaking lease agreements? Establishing new lease agreements, then breaking them again? Moving once, then moving again?

Or, rather, would it have been better for the pastor to hasten the process, advise them to skip any expensive sham of a wedding, and establish the marriage quickly or break up the couple entirely?

No he had the right order. They admitted they were living in sin and repented.

 

[RDKirk]

No he had the right order. They admitted they were living in sin and repented.

And so the first thing to do was to get married. They can't go back and become virgins again.

 

[Elisha's Bear]

And so the first thing to do was to get married. They can't go back and become virgins again.

Amen. Which, according to the story, was all they wanted in the first place. Unless something was left out. No application for baptism or membership was mentioned.

 

[bling]

spoken like someone who has never been under persecution.

Good observation, since it did come second hand, I taught in Sunday school at a prison where most of my student were converted in prison. The 42 converts when through what I could not handle. I teach Chinese students at the local College some of whom will return to Beijing, knowing no Christians there. Both groups' commitment, study habits, witnessing, faith, hope and Love exceed me, so I see the good in being persecuted.

 

[bling]

And for that matter, so are the persecuted Christian churches of the Middle East and the former Soviet Union / Warsaw Pact / Eastern Europe.

However, the horrors that have been endured we do not want. God forbid it should reach that point. Also, let no one think such persecutions are punishments for religious failure, like the exile of the Jews to Babylon; all of the churches I just mentioned were growing and thriving before the persecution, and several of them, due to the scale of genocides, have suffered permanent damage, despite post-persecution growth.

I am not sure how you determine "growing and thriving before", where they going along like the Churches of Europe today?

1 Peter 2:20…But if you suffer for doing good and you endure it, this is commendable before God. 21 To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps.

1Peter 4: 13 But rejoice inasmuch as you participate in the sufferings of Christ, so that you may be overjoyed when his glory is revealed. 14 If you are insulted because of the name of Christ, you are blessed, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests on you. 15 If you suffer, it should not be as a murderer or thief or any other kind of criminal, or even as a meddler. 16 However, if you suffer as a Christian, do not be ashamed, but praise God that you bear that name.

Hebrews 13:3 Continue to remember those in prison as if you were together with them in prison, and those who are mistreated as if you yourselves were suffering

 

[bling]

Ideally, the Body of Christ need only the "benign neglect" of the earthly government. That is, in fact, what we are explicitly instructed to pray for:

I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people--for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness.--1 Timothy 2

However, it is true that Satan operates more easily under the cover of chaos, and we see in history and today that the Church grows better in an orderly society than in chaos, even when the government of that orderly society is oppressive.

That is why the Church is growing in China and North Korea (it has grown ten-fold in North Korea since the mid-90s), but not in South Sudan.

However, it is a dangerous situation when an earthly government makes a social advantage of Church membership. The Church should always be in tension even with a benign earthly government. If the government makes Church membership a social advantage, people will join for the social advantage, not for the sake of salvation.

That is the problem pointed out by the radical Puritan cleric Roger Williams 'way back in 1644. That's why he founded the colony of Rhode Island as the first colony with absolutely no coercion or social advantage to become a Christian. He want only those in the pews who had been enabled by the Father to accept the Gospel.

Luke 12: 49 “I have come to bring fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled! 50 But I have a baptism to undergo, and what constraint I am under until it is completed! 51 Do you think I came to bring peace on earth? No, I tell you, but division. 52 From now on there will be five in one family divided against each other, three against two and two against three. 53 They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law.”

Satan controlled the religious leaders of Christ’s day while there was a kind of “peace”. You can have God’s peace waiting your execution.

Our peaceful and quit lives can be a contrast to what is happening around us.

 

[BobRyan]

It would seem to me that we are past a certain point of no return regarding church policy and direction. While I could go into the details about how our seminaries are overrun with these ideologies, I think that's a different discussion and objective. What does seem to be the case is that fundamentalism, even in basic forms such as biblical inerrancy, have been cast aside to ensure that churches are accepted by the world, bolster their member numbers simply by inviting the world in and telling them exactly what they'd rather hear than what Scripture states.

So, brainstorming on this as of yesterday, I wonder what the community would think or say if a church sprang up with the following mission statement:

We exist and gather, in the Name of God, to adhere to biblical principles set forth by Jesus Christ and the Apostles. In doing so, we reject all invitation to the world, its evils and those who seek to work it among the People of God (2 Samuel 23:6, 1 Corinthians 5, James 1:26-27). Therefore, we invite only those who consider themselves to be actively Called, possessing of righteous desire the learn and be healed from their sins, who seek repentance and the Face of the Lord, and those reborn of Spirit and in Christ (1 Chronicles 16:11, Psalm 27:8, Hosea 5:15, Luke 5:32, John 3:1-20). Those who have no desire to seek God, who have no intention of repentance, may request prayer for a new heart (Ezekiel 36, Jeremiah 31) from our pastor, but should know that this Place is Holy Ground, and therefore we reject any permit for evil to dwell within the House of the Lord.

While this may sound harsh to many, is this what is really needed to regain holiness within our churches? Should we go back to expulsions as instructed by Paul in 1 Corinthians 5, and only readmit under the evidence of sincere repentance.

It would seem to me that inclusive Christianity is becoming so inclusive they'd openly invite the devil in if he weren't already there.

Or...are most churches now country clubs and simple self-help groups?

I understand your point - but as Christians we are specifically called to "seek and save the lost". We invite those who do not have salvation to come and hear the gospel - We pray that God will convict them of sin and lead them to repentance and then cause in them - the New Birth.

 

[98cwitr]

I understand your point - but as Christians we are specifically called to "seek and save the lost". We invite those who do not have salvation to come and hear the gospel - We pray that God will convict them of sin and lead them to repentance and then cause in them - the New Birth.

Does such seeking involve going out into the world, or building a building and inviting people in? For analogy, do we invite sin into our bodies to combat it? Or, do we keep our temples clean while working outwardly via outreach?

 

[The Liturgist]

Does such seeking involve going out into the world, or building a building and inviting people in? For analogy, do we invite sin into our bodies to combat it? Or, do we keep our temples clean while working outwardly via outreach?

This is an important point, beautifully expressed.

 

[BobRyan]

Does such seeking involve going out into the world, or building a building and inviting people in?

Why not both? What is the building for if not evangelism?

For analogy, do we invite sin into our bodies to combat it?

Is it your claim that we go out into the world and sin so that we can give the gospel to the lost - and we would not want to be doing that sort of thing in our churches? or are you saying that when the lost attend an evangelistic outreach program in our church they would be doing crack-cocaine or some other sort of sin in the church?

the examples given on page one appear to be that of church members doing the sinning not non-Christians.