Colossal failure in protecting a former President

[comana]

My question was why did they stand Trump up? To give the shooter another shot? But one of the problems is funding. Former presidents don’t get full SS protection and they have to rely on local law enforcement to help out.
Still there is no excuse for not having that building covered. And civilians spotted the man with a rifle on the building before law enforcement. This is either a massive failure or an inside job

My assumption is that they started walking him out as soon as the threat was over. I was surprised to see how calmly people were sitting in the stands behind him at that point as well.

 

[friend of]

At least we can count on heightened security for Trump moving forward.

 

[iluvatar5150]

You request sources - yet you present none when requested from you. When you present sources for your statements, they will be substantiated, but complaining about something lacking sources, when your complaint lacks sources hold no weight

I freely admit I'm making assumptions about the scope of their powers.

 

[BPPLEE]

Seriously, you folks in the peanut gallery should just shut up until a complete investigation is done. No one here is a secret service agent, security "expert" or has any experience in site security.

And it wouldn't surprise me a bit for the conspiracy-theory loons to start posting their nonsense on this forum.

Gee, I can't wait....

It’s a forum. This is what people do on forums. We don’t do official investigations we are all just amateurs expressing our opinions. I do have some experience in executive security guarding the governor of our state.

 

[Brihaha]

I know it's just a movie, but still - watch the movie, "Shooter" to get a feel for how they actually protect a president. In the world of long guns and crack shots, this roof would have been WELL within the secured perimeter.

Yet it wasn't. There are two possibilities: Gross incompetence or intentional "look the other way". Pick one.

There are other possibilities. We might never know though. This kid did not escape like Marky Mark did in the movie. That shooter went on to take out all the conspirators in the flick.

Some of the security issues might be due to the fact Mr Trump cannot utilize more secure venues for his rallies. He has a bad reputation for not paying his bills and venues are telling him "No". I'm not discounting the possibility that secret service agents may have done a poor job. It's just a counterproductive pattern how humans always look for someone to blame without having an open mind about each display of unnecessary gun violence in America.

We might do well to start with the easy accessibility of firearms and assault rifles in particular. But only if we have a genuine desire to minimize the unnecessary gun deaths in our country. It's glaringly obvious Americans value the availability of firearms over the lives of our fellow citizens. Until we change ourselves things will continue to escalate. Doing nothing ain't sustainable for our free society.

 

[BPPLEE]

Is his age remarkable? I was an expert marksman with an M-16 at the tender age of 18 in the US army..

Any indication that he served in the military?

 

[BPPLEE]

Another thing to consider is the venues Donald Trump is now forced to hold his rallies. He apparently has a bad reputation for not paying his bills. Many more secure venues are not available to use for political rallies. I believe some cities even refused to allow Trump rallies now. Trump rallies bring a lot of hassles to the host communities in America. People take all this stuff for granted but Trump rallies cause collateral issues everywhere he goes.

This kid was a registered republican too. It supports my view that Mr Trump inspires anger and hatred from both sides of the aisle, and it's why he is so counterproductive and dangerous for America. Donald Trump has allowed his ambitions to supercede his worth, with a lot of help from his fans. But people apparently want more of this destructive behavior. Let's add more fuel to the fire shall we? Where's his next rally? Americans have become the Roman mob. Win the crowd Maximus, win the crowd and get whatever you want!

Is there anything that happens that you don’t blame Trump for? You’ve pinned everything but climate change on him.

 

[Hank77]

I was talking about this on a political site where a LOT of the posters are avid hunters. The consensus was that any decent hunter could have pretty easily made that shot. i.e. as a mater of standard procedure, that rooftop should have been a major spot to secure long before Trump hit the stage. 130 yards was nothing to those posters.

My spouse and I have been elk and deer hunting with .223s for 50 years. and 45 years respectively. 500 yards is a decent shot. I shoot prairie dogs at 150 yards with a .22. My spouse has shot coyotes at 250-300 yards with a 22/250. 130 yards with a .223 is nothing.

Yike! I getting old and losing my mind?
We both shot .243 long rifles, not .223 like an AR does. Big difference!

Still, 130 yards with a .223 is nothing, especially with a target as large as a man.

 

[iluvatar5150]

You can have the business remain open and still provide a decent level of security, it just takes a little planning and coordination.

Sure. Covering the roof was obviously feasible. What I don't know is the level of resources devoted to a run-of-the-mill political speech.

Below is an overhead shot of the area, with the stage at the circle and the shooter at the X. Countersnipers were positioned on the roofs immediately to the east of the stage (not marked). There are maybe a dozen other buildings with a view of the stage, with about half of them being outside the venue. Any one of these could've been a viable sniper nest, and in a more populated area, the number of buildings would've been even higher. How much manpower do you throw at every rally?

 

[MForbes]

Hopefully, we can keep the nonsense consipriacies crap to a minumum.....

Unfortunately, conspiracy theories have already started to trickle out from one or two in this thread.

 

[Brihaha]

Is there anything that happens that you don’t blame Trump for? You’ve pinned everything but climate change on him.

A better question might be is there anything for which y'all would blame him? Excuses quit being effective on me after raising three kids. Take an honest look at the consequences and effects this man has inflicted upon our nation. Where is the overwhelming positive impact of Donald Trump hiding? The positives should drown out the negative suffering of Americans so where is the positive impact on America hiding? C'mon man. You are dishonest with yourself if you keep denying Mr Trump is a terrible influence on our nation. I know Donald is not responsible for every terrible act of violence in America. Yet it is quite easy to see the man certainly exacerbates it for political gain. I simply don't have time to get into the climate change claim lol.

 

[Hank77]

Any indication that he served in the military?

No.
This is what I have seen and read.
I saw a yearbook picture of him. He's a scrawny kid wearing a grey T-shirt with the US flag printed across the front. Also a photo of him at his high school graduation. He was a registered Republican but had made a $15 donation to a progressive group on January 20, 2021.

 

[BPPLEE]

There are other possibilities. We might never know though. This kid did not escape like Marky Mark did in the movie. That shooter went on to take out all the conspirators in the flick.

Some of the security issues might be due to the fact Mr Trump cannot utilize more secure venues for his rallies. He has a bad reputation for not paying his bills and venues are telling him "No". I'm not discounting the possibility that secret service agents may have done a poor job. It's just a counterproductive pattern how humans always look for someone to blame without having an open mind about each display of unnecessary gun violence in America.

We might do well to start with the easy accessibility of firearms and assault rifles in particular. But only if we have a genuine desire to minimize the unnecessary gun deaths in our country. It's glaringly obvious Americans value the availability of firearms over the lives of our fellow citizens. Until we change ourselves things will continue to escalate. Doing nothing ain't sustainable for our free society.

@Brihaha said “It's glaringly obvious Americans value the availability of firearms over the lives of our fellow citizens.”
No it’s not that at all. It’s that putting restrictions on law abiding citizens will do nothing to protect the lives of fellow citizens.
How long have illegal drugs been illegal? Yet I can go to a town that I have never been to before and within two hours I can buy drugs. I used to do it when I worked narcotics. What makes you think it will be any different with firearms?

 

[wing2000]

I was trained with such a weapon in the military and can speak from real life experience and live shooting experiences - how about you?

I can still tell you by the sounds of the report it was chambered .223.

I already commented on my military experience. And yes, growing up in rural Pennyslyvnai, I was quite competent with shooting a variety of deer rifes by age 14....and later, the M-16 in he US Army.

In any case, I doubt either one of us have experience securing an improvised rally site for a former POTUS.

 

[BPPLEE]

Sure. Covering the roof was obviously feasible. What I don't know is the level of resources devoted to a run-of-the-mill political speech.

Below is an overhead shot of the area, with the stage at the circle and the shooter at the X. Countersnipers were positioned on the roofs immediately to the east of the stage (not marked). There are maybe a dozen other buildings with a view of the stage, with about half of them being outside the venue. Any one of these could've been a viable sniper nest, and in a more populated area, the number of buildings would've been even higher. How much manpower do you throw at every rally?

View attachment 351578

With drones you can cover much more with considerably fewer people

 

[wing2000]

No.
This is what I have seen and read.
I saw a yearbook picture of him. He's a scrawny kid wearing a grey T-shirt with the US flag printed across the front. Also a photo of him at his high school graduation. He was a registered Republican but had made a $15 donation to a progressive group on January 20, 2021.

+ CNN is reporting he was an outsider in High School....seems to fit a loner profile.

 

[MForbes]

In any case, I doubt either one of us have experience securing an improvised rally site for a former POTUS.

Highly experienced folks and self-proclaimed experts seem to magically appear in threads like this.

 

[Reasonably Sane]

There are other possibilities. We might never know though. This kid did not escape like Marky Mark did in the movie. That shooter went on to take out all the conspirators in the flick.

Some of the security issues might be due to the fact Mr Trump cannot utilize more secure venues for his rallies. He has a bad reputation for not paying his bills and venues are telling him "No". I'm not discounting the possibility that secret service agents may have done a poor job. It's just a counterproductive pattern how humans always look for someone to blame without having an open mind about each display of unnecessary gun violence in America.

We might do well to start with the easy accessibility of firearms and assault rifles in particular. But only if we have a genuine desire to minimize the unnecessary gun deaths in our country. It's glaringly obvious Americans value the availability of firearms over the lives of our fellow citizens. Until we change ourselves things will continue to escalate. Doing nothing ain't sustainable for our free society.

This was absurdly easily protected. Securing the roof's of those buildings were security 101, yet they didn't do it. i.e. it was either gross incompetence or it was an inside job. And this has nothing to do with "gun violence in America". That is mere deflection.

 

[Reasonably Sane]

Highly experienced folks and self-proclaimed experts seem to magically appear in threads like this.

Actually, there are quite a few true experts that have chimed in on this. However, I agree with you that Dunning Kruger may be in effect sometimes in these threads. But you'd be surprised how many people actually know a fair amount about this sort of thing. In fact, much of it is mere common sense. One could easily stand where trump was going to stand and look at all the buildings that had a clear view from their roof (as well as any other locations with a clear view) that were within a reasonable "accurate" shooting distance, and make sure those locations were secure. Yet, oddly, they didn't do that. This stinks to high heaven. And none of us are going to be gaslit to be convinced otherwise.

 

[Brihaha]

@Brihaha said “It's glaringly obvious Americans value the availability of firearms over the lives of our fellow citizens.”
No it’s not that at all. It’s that putting restrictions on law abiding citizens will do nothing to protect the lives of fellow citizens.
How long have illegal drugs been illegal? Yet I can go to a town that I have never been to before and within two hours I can buy drugs. I used to do it when I worked narcotics. What makes you think it will be any different with firearms?

Statistics. Fewer guns means fewer deaths. Simple logic too. We have to try many solutions to find ones that work. Not trying is unacceptable to me. Period.

Did the assault weapons ban of 1994 bring down mass shootings? Here’s what the data tells us • Ohio Capital Journal

Researchers have calculated that the risk of a person in the U.S. dying in a mass shooting was 70% lower during the period in which the 1994 to 2004 national assault weapons ban was active.

ohiocapitaljournal.com

Before the assault weapon ban began in 1994 the average number of deaths in America from mass shootings was 7.2 deaths per year. During the ten year assault rifle ban the number dropped to 5 deaths a year from mass shootings. The last year in this particular study 2017, long after the assault weapon ban was repealed, the deaths from mass shootings every year averaged 25. It's not rocket science my friend. It is about finding the will to prioritize American lives over unnecessary privileges. Nobody needs an assault rifle to protect themselves or for hunting. Unless their game is human. If those poor animals are so dangerous stay away from their territory.