Col.2{16} uhhh...cording to scripture

[Frogster]

I could scripturally address everything you wrote but ill just address one point

GAL.4 [8] Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods.[9] But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?[10] YE OBSERVE DAYS, AND MONTHS, AND TIMES, AND YEARS.[11] I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.

Galatians 4 says nothing about sabbaths or feast days. Its speaking of those who observe times.

DEUT.18 [9] When thou art come into the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not learn to do after the abominations of those nations.[10] There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, OR AN OBSERVER OF TIMES, or an enchanter, or a witch,[11] Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.

The same thing goes on to this very day. Its speaking of the occult. Those who observe certain days by use of horoscopes?

2 CHR.33 [3] For he built again the high places which Hezekiah his father had broken down, and he reared up altars for Baalim, and made groves, and worshipped all the host of heaven, and served them.[4] Also he built altars in the house of the LORD, whereof the LORD had said, In Jerusalem shall my name be for ever.[5] And he built altars for all the host of heaven in the two courts of the house of the LORD.[6] And he caused his children to pass through the fire in the valley of the son of Hinnom: ALSO HE OBSERVED TIMES, and used enchantments, and used witchcraft, and dealt with a familiar spirit, and with wizards: he wrought much evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger

Enchantments, witchcraft, familiar spirits, and wizards. Its speaking of the occult. Not following sabbath days.

LEV.19 [26] Ye shall not eat any thing with the blood: neither shall ye use enchantment, NOR OBSERVE TIMES.[27] Ye shall not round the corners of your heads, neither shalt thou mar the corners of thy beard.[28] Ye shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor print any marks upon you: I am the LORD.[29] Do not prostitute thy daughter, to cause her to be a harlot; lest the land fall to whoredom, and the land become full of wickedness.[30] YE SHALL KEEP MY SABBATHS, and reverence my sanctuary: I am the LORD.

I guess this scripture says it all. You shall not observe times BUT you will keep my sabbaths.

it was the jewish calendar, what other calendar would judaizers impose?

 

[Frogster]

That's a completely untenable interpretation of Paul's criticism of the Galatians. Are we to believe the false teachers in Galatia were teaching both that one had to be circumcised according to Moses and that the Galatians should observe horoscopes banned by the same law?

good point, they could not go into 2 different directions, 4:21 says, they desire to be under the law, and 5;1 talks about snipping and the law.

 

[Frogster]

If you look at the Greek 'observe' in Galatians 4;10 you will see that it is NOT the same Greek word used in the Septuagint (Greek OT) as 'observe' in relation to God's commandments.

The Greek (Thayers 3906)in Galatians 4:10 also means 'to take note of or pay attention to.' This is the only place in the NT that the word is used.

The Greek (Thayers 5083) used in other places in the NT for 'observe' in the sense of 'keeping commandments' is different. It is the Greek equivalent of the Hebrew 'shamar' which means to guard and keep.

In Jesus day, Jews were forbidden to do business with Gentiles on or near pagan holidays. This is the sense in which they 'took note of' days.

those are all calendrical words in Gal 4:10, and Col 2:16, and here.


2 chron 2: 4 Behold, I am about to build a house for the name of the Lord my God and dedicate it to him for the burning of incense of sweet spices before him, and for the regular arrangement of the showbread, and for burnt offerings morning and evening, on the Sabbaths and the new moons and the appointed feasts of the Lord our God, as ordained forever for Israel.



Col 2:16 Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath.

 

[Frogster]

Lots of heat and no light as usual.

"The hand-writing of the decree which was against us, which was contrary to us" is not the same thing as "the moral law".

"Cheipographon" does not mean "written code" as in NIV. It means "certificate of debt" as in NASB. in other word, it is a record of debt, like a credit card bill.

The “demands” or statuatory implications of the handwritten record are only those of debt, not those of the Mosaic Law.
Colossians 2:14 and Paul’s Letter Carriers – Catholic Bible Student | Catholic Bible Student - A Blog About the Bible, Catholicism and the Habit of Study

ceirografon:
a note of hand or writing in which one acknowledges that money has either been deposited with him or lent to him by another, to be returned at the appointed time
Cheirographon - New Testament Greek Lexicon - New American Standard

but u forget he talks about being in the uncircumcised flesh with those transgressions in 2:13, a clear implication of morality, besides the law was one, and we were dead, serious wordage, for serious morality issues, dead, it says, too serious for anything but morality.

good to see ya...

 

[bugkiller]

Lots of heat and no light as usual.

"The hand-writing of the decree which was against us, which was contrary to us" is not the same thing as "the moral law".

"Cheipographon" does not mean "written code" as in NIV. It means "certificate of debt" as in NASB. in other word, it is a record of debt, like a credit card bill.

The “demands” or statuatory implications of the handwritten record are only those of debt, not those of the Mosaic Law.
Colossians 2:14 and Paul’s Letter Carriers – Catholic Bible Student | Catholic Bible Student - A Blog About the Bible, Catholicism and the Habit of Study

ceirografon:
a note of hand or writing in which one acknowledges that money has either been deposited with him or lent to him by another, to be returned at the appointed time
Cheirographon - New Testament Greek Lexicon - New American Standard

Written code is always a related to a or the law and not a result of violating the law. Even in English decrees and ordinances are not records of violation. They are in place to ofend us. That is to keep us from doing something we want. Does not always work, unfortunately.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Good call. The explanation would probably sound like....

MATT.12 [39] But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:[40] For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; SO SHALL THE SON OF MAN BE THREE DAYS AND THREE NIGHTS IN THE HEART OF THE EARTH.

The explanations i get when i ask how good friday till sunday morn equals 3 days and 3 nights.

The 3 days and 3 nights are not a reference to 72 hours according to the way they spoke of time back then. Even when we say a day it is rare that a 24 hour period is meant.

bugkiller

 

[Yab Yum]

No-one is arguing that dead was not dead or that immoral was not immoral or that written code is not written code. What is clear, however, is that what was swept away in Colossians 2:14 was not "torah" but a "written debt".

I mean for crying our loud people this is not difficult. This is basic Christianity 101.

When your kid comes to you and tells you he's eaten all the cookies in the cookie jar what do you do, tell him hey, no problem there is no moral law! Happy clappy to the grocery store and let's buy more cookies!? Or do you say, OK well if you're truly sorry about it I forgive you in spite of the law - and don't do it again. It doesn't mean there was, is and won't be any morality any more.

I mean for frak's sake use your reason.

The word tetelestai was also written on business documents or receipts in New Testament times to show indicating that a bill had been paid in full. The Greek-English lexicon by Moulton and Milligan says this:

“Receipts are often introduced by the phrase [sic] tetelestai, usually written in an abbreviated manner...” (p. 630). The connection between receipts and what Christ accomplished would have been quite clear to John’s Greek-speaking readership; it would be unmistakable that Jesus Christ had died to pay for their sins.
Beware the Ides of March: Colossians 2.14 -- "Cheirographon"

Correspondingly if the kid comes to you and says hey dad I ate some bacon from the fridge: are you going to tell him - no way Jose that's against the moral law? No, because after the Messiah comes there's no more need for God's people to wait for him in the little monastery called "Israel". They go out of the monastery into the world to tell it about Him.

Galatians 3
28 Now, in Christ, it doesn’t matter if you are a Jew or a Greek, a slave or free, male or female. You are all the same in Christ Jesus.

Now riddle me this:

When you say "I forgive you for eating the cookies, if you're truly sorry, in spite of the law, and don't do it again" that does not take away one iota from the sense of shock and unexpected joy and surprise at being forgiven by a sovereign God, who remains the source of the moral law. If the moral law itself disappears then the value of the forgiveness also disappears.

And it does not take away one iota from Paul's warnings to the Galatians not to expect God's gracious love as a reward by obeying legal rules and regulations. Quite the reverse - it raises the stakes to an infinite level.

In other words:

Just because the gospel is pure liberty and pure gift does not mean the moral law has gone poof. In fact the liberty and pure gift are all the more miraculous because it has not gone poof. That pure gift, rather than obeying rules and formulas, is why we should kneel down weeping with eagerness to now obey the moral law having been forgiven in spite of it.

An IOU which is nailed to the cross and which is backed by the force of no law is valueless.

 

[Frogster]

No-one is arguing that dead was not dead or that immoral was not immoral or that written code is not written code. What is clear, however, is that what was swept away in Colossians 2:14 was not "torah" but a "written debt".

I mean for crying our loud people this is not difficult. This is basic Christianity 101.

When your kid comes to you and tells you he's eaten all the cookies in the cookie jar what do you do, tell him hey, no problem there is no moral law! Happy clappy to the grocery store and let's buy more cookies!? Or do you say, OK well if you're truly sorry about it I forgive you in spite of the law - and don't do it again. It doesn't mean there was, is and won't be any morality any more.

I mean for frak's sake use your reason.

The word tetelestai was also written on business documents or receipts in New Testament times to show indicating that a bill had been paid in full. The Greek-English lexicon by Moulton and Milligan says this:

“Receipts are often introduced by the phrase [sic] tetelestai, usually written in an abbreviated manner...” (p. 630). The connection between receipts and what Christ accomplished would have been quite clear to John’s Greek-speaking readership; it would be unmistakable that Jesus Christ had died to pay for their sins.
Beware the Ides of March: Colossians 2.14 -- "Cheirographon"

Correspondingly if the kid comes to you and says hey dad I ate some bacon from the fridge: are you going to tell him - no way Jose that's against the moral law? No, because after the Messiah comes there's no more need for God's people to wait for him in the little monastery called "Israel". They go out of the monastery into the world to tell it about Him.

Galatians 3
28 Now, in Christ, it doesn’t matter if you are a Jew or a Greek, a slave or free, male or female. You are all the same in Christ Jesus.

Now riddle me this:

When you say "I forgive you for eating the cookies, if you're truly sorry, in spite of the law, and don't do it again" that does not take away one iota from the sense of shock and unexpected joy and surprise at being forgiven by a sovereign God, who remains the source of the moral law. If the moral law itself disappears then the value of the forgiveness also disappears.

And it does not take away one iota from Paul's warnings to the Galatians not to expect God's gracious love as a reward by obeying legal rules and regulations. Quite the reverse - it raises the stakes to an infinite level.

In other words:

Just because the gospel is pure liberty and pure gift does not mean the moral law has gone poof. In fact the liberty and pure gift are all the more miraculous because it has not gone poof. That pure gift, rather than obeying rules and formulas, is why we should kneel down weeping with eagerness to now obey the moral law having been forgiven in spite of it.

An IOU which is nailed to the cross and which is backed by the force of no law is valueless.

with..with...the decrees...the decrees went with it all..

New International Version (©1984)
having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross.


English Standard Version (©2001)
by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross.



Holman Christian Standard Bible (©2009)
He erased the certificate of debt, with its obligations, that was against us and opposed to us, and has taken it out of the way by nailing it to the cross.



THE ORDINANCES AGAINST US, THE LAW. It does not say blotting out the debt in the kjv it says THE ordinances.



James 2000 Bible (©2003)
Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross

 

[Frogster]

No-one is arguing that dead was not dead or that immoral was not immoral or that written code is not written code. What is clear, however, is that what was swept away in Colossians 2:14 was not "torah" but a "written debt".

I mean for crying our loud people this is not difficult. This is basic Christianity 101.

When your kid comes to you and tells you he's eaten all the cookies in the cookie jar what do you do, tell him hey, no problem there is no moral law! Happy clappy to the grocery store and let's buy more cookies!? Or do you say, OK well if you're truly sorry about it I forgive you in spite of the law - and don't do it again. It doesn't mean there was, is and won't be any morality any more.

I mean for frak's sake use your reason.

The word tetelestai was also written on business documents or receipts in New Testament times to show indicating that a bill had been paid in full. The Greek-English lexicon by Moulton and Milligan says this:

“Receipts are often introduced by the phrase [sic] tetelestai, usually written in an abbreviated manner...” (p. 630). The connection between receipts and what Christ accomplished would have been quite clear to John’s Greek-speaking readership; it would be unmistakable that Jesus Christ had died to pay for their sins.
Beware the Ides of March: Colossians 2.14 -- "Cheirographon"

Correspondingly if the kid comes to you and says hey dad I ate some bacon from the fridge: are you going to tell him - no way Jose that's against the moral law? No, because after the Messiah comes there's no more need for God's people to wait for him in the little monastery called "Israel". They go out of the monastery into the world to tell it about Him.

Galatians 3
28 Now, in Christ, it doesn’t matter if you are a Jew or a Greek, a slave or free, male or female. You are all the same in Christ Jesus.

Now riddle me this:

When you say "I forgive you for eating the cookies, if you're truly sorry, in spite of the law, and don't do it again" that does not take away one iota from the sense of shock and unexpected joy and surprise at being forgiven by a sovereign God, who remains the source of the moral law. If the moral law itself disappears then the value of the forgiveness also disappears.

And it does not take away one iota from Paul's warnings to the Galatians not to expect God's gracious love as a reward by obeying legal rules and regulations. Quite the reverse - it raises the stakes to an infinite level.

In other words:

Just because the gospel is pure liberty and pure gift does not mean the moral law has gone poof. In fact the liberty and pure gift are all the more miraculous because it has not gone poof. That pure gift, rather than obeying rules and formulas, is why we should kneel down weeping with eagerness to now obey the moral law having been forgiven in spite of it.

An IOU which is nailed to the cross and which is backed by the force of no law is valueless.

read it in the sister twin epistle


New American Standard Bible (©1995)
by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace,

 

[Yab Yum]

...

having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

For crying out loud. Again, no-one is arguing that there isn't a legal requirement that is cancelled when the writ of debt is cancelled. If there wasn't what value would there be in forgiveness? That is what I am saying - the legal requirement pertaining to the writ of debt is cancelled.

That is quite different from saying - yipee there is no morality!

 

[Yab Yum]

read it in the sister twin epistle


New American Standard Bible (©1995)
by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace,

Are you serious?

Eph 2:10
For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

If Eph 2:10 doesn't clearly separate legal works from good deeds for you there's no hope for discussion.

Again noone is disputing that salvation is a free gift. That doesn't mean yipee there is no morality.

All it means is that Paul is saying - don't create an expectation of reward based upon conforming to the rules and regs.

He is saying be shocked when God forgives you - because the law exists, it will always exist, and it is an abyss which you are going to be thrown in to.

When Jesus saves you and tells you to "go and sin no more" what are you going to do, say "thanks and hooray there's no more morality!"???

John 3:36 He who believes in the Son has eternal life; he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God rests upon him.

Have I that faith which leads me to obey my God?—for obedience, if it be of the kind we are speaking of, is faith in action — faith walking with God ... Alas! dear friends, we have so much talk, and so little obedience! The religion of mere brain and jaw does not amount to much. We want the religion of hands and feet ... this is a kind of life which will bring communion with God ... If we transgress against him, we shall soon be in trouble; but a holy walk — the walk described by my text as faith working obedience — is heaven beneath the stars. God comes down to walk with men who obey. If they walk with him, he walks with them. The Lord can only have fellowship with his servants as they obey. Obedience is heaven in us, and it is the preface of our being in heaven. Obedient faith is the way to eternal life—nay, it is eternal life revealing itself.
C.H. Spurgeon, Sermon called "Obedience of Faith," August 21, 1890

St. Paul and St. James were teaching neither "works alone" nor "faith alone" but justification by faithful and loving works. Yes, we can do nothing to earn the grace to obey. Nevertheless - the new law of Christ is absolutely bound to the authentic Christian interpretation of the moral precepts of Divine Law.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by Frogster read it in the sister twin epistle


New American Standard Bible (©1995)
by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace,

Today, that could mean a Catholic and Protestant

 

[Frogster]

having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

For crying out loud. Again, no-one is arguing that there isn't a legal requirement that is cancelled when the writ of debt is cancelled. If there wasn't what value would there be in forgiveness? That is what I am saying - the legal requirement pertaining to the writ of debt is cancelled.

That is quite different from saying - yipee there is no morality!

who said yippie no morality? but morality did not come by law, the law was added to increase the sin, rom 5;20, sin had dominion under law, Rom 6;14, the power of sin is the law, 1 Cor 15;56, sinful passions were aroused by law Rom 7:5, so yippie.

 

[Frogster]

Are you serious?

Eph 2:10
For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

If Eph 2:10 doesn't clearly separate legal works from good deeds for you there's no hope for discussion.

Again noone is disputing that salvation is a free gift. That doesn't mean yipee there is no morality.

All it means is that Paul is saying - don't create an expectation of reward based upon conforming to the rules and regs.

He is saying be shocked when God forgives you - because the law exists, it will always exist, and it is an abyss which you are going to be thrown in to.

When Jesus saves you and tells you to "go and sin no more" what are you going to do, say "thanks and hooray there's no more morality!"???

John 3:36 He who believes in the Son has eternal life; he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God rests upon him.

Have I that faith which leads me to obey my God?—for obedience, if it be of the kind we are speaking of, is faith in action — faith walking with God ... Alas! dear friends, we have so much talk, and so little obedience! The religion of mere brain and jaw does not amount to much. We want the religion of hands and feet ... this is a kind of life which will bring communion with God ... If we transgress against him, we shall soon be in trouble; but a holy walk — the walk described by my text as faith working obedience — is heaven beneath the stars. God comes down to walk with men who obey. If they walk with him, he walks with them. The Lord can only have fellowship with his servants as they obey. Obedience is heaven in us, and it is the preface of our being in heaven. Obedient faith is the way to eternal life—nay, it is eternal life revealing itself.
C.H. Spurgeon, Sermon called "Obedience of Faith," August 21, 1890

St. Paul and St. James were teaching neither "works alone" nor "faith alone" but justification by faithful and loving works. Yes, we can do nothing to earn the grace to obey. Nevertheless - the new law of Christ is absolutely bound to the authentic Christian interpretation of the moral precepts of Divine Law.

the law stands for the unsaved, always, but why does it say abolished in 2;15? Why?


dude, the cross...that is where the body of sin was destroyed rom 6:6, for them that believe, the cross....

abolished IN HIS FLESH...that would only be for those who accept the cross. the sinful passions by law, rom 7;5, went to the cross, for the beleivers, now we are raised outta the flesh, with it's law all wrapped up in it, that is a fact.

alrighty now....

 

[JohnRabbit]

Over and over again God told Moses to speak to the children of Israel and then to speak God's commandments.

Leviticus 19 is a prime example. Here God gives civil, moral AND ritual commandments.



It doesn't appear that God made a distinction between civil, moral, and ritual commandments.

Now, God did not WRITE any of these above commandments either. Would you call them 'unspiritual' then?

i wouldn't call them unspiritual. here's what i say.


we know that God gave the law.

the ten commandments define sin as unto God.



the civil law was for the COI's physical application of the "ten" as they lived as a civil society.

the ceremonial law was added because of transgression. in going through ritualistic worship, in the form of fleshly ordinances, the COI would learn the habit of obedience. these physical works of law had certain symbolic meaning, and of course, the sacrificial ordinance pointed to the Christ.

 

[JohnRabbit]

the law stands for the unsaved, always, but why does it say abolished in 2;15? Why?


dude, the cross...that is where the body of sin was destroyed rom 6:6, for them that believe, the cross....

abolished IN HIS FLESH...that would only be for those who accept the cross. the sinful passions by law, rom 7;5, went to the cross, for the beleivers, now we are raised outta the flesh, with it's law all wrapped up in it, that is a fact.

alrighty now....

Romans 7:12(NKJV)
12Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.

 

[bugkiller]

Are you serious?

Eph 2:10
For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

If Eph 2:10 doesn't clearly separate legal works from good deeds for you there's no hope for discussion.

Again noone is disputing that salvation is a free gift. That doesn't mean yipee there is no morality.

Sure wish there was a way to get that fact across to a select few here.

bugkiller

 

[mrasell]

COL. 2 [16] Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

The scripture above is the scripture used by all the sunday go to meetin denominations to rid themselves of Gods sabbath day. Its also their biggy to eat their piggy. There are many places in your bible which discuss the meat and the drink offerings of the holy days, new moons and the sabbath but they are ignored by the “many”.

If this verse were referring to the weekly Sabbath, it was also be wrong to observe Sunday!

Whatever the context of Ezekiel, Paul was using this phrase in his own context, and clarified his statement with "shadows of things to come", which cannot refer to the week Sabbath which is a memorial of Creation, sanctified before sin even came into the world.

The word "meat", is an old English word for food, so does not specifically refer to clean or unclean foods, but is more likely some sort of Gnostic practice of asceticism, by abstaining from food. I've gone into more details into the the Colossian heresy in my book, "exploring the heavenly sanctuary", this part of the book can be read here: http://http://www.exploringtheheavenlysanctuary.co.uk/ if you scroll down to nearly the end of the page to the subjection, "The Colossian heresy".

Marc Rasell

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

If this verse were referring to the weekly Sabbath, it was also be wrong to observe Sunday!

Whatever the context of Ezekiel, Paul was using this phrase in his own context, and clarified his statement with "shadows of things to come", which cannot refer to the week Sabbath which is a memorial of Creation, sanctified before sin even came into the world.

The word "meat", is an old English word for food, so does not specifically refer to clean or unclean foods, but is more likely some sort of Gnostic practice of asceticism, by abstaining from food. I've gone into more details into the the Colossian heresy in my book, "exploring the heavenly sanctuary", this part of the book can be read here:

Marc Rasell

Interesting
I looked up meat and food in a few bible versions using a concordance and noticed the KJV is quite the opposite of the way YoungLT has in the amount of times those words are used.

Strong's Concordance with Hebrew and Greek Lexicon

Blue Letter Bible - Search Results for KJV
"meat"
occurs 290 times in 274 verses in the KJV

http://www.blueletterbible.org/search/translationResults.cfm?Criteria=food&t=KJV&sf=5
"food"
occurs 55 times in 48 verses in the KJV

Blue Letter Bible - Search Results for YLT
"meat"
occurs 31 times in 28 verses in the YLT

http://www.blueletterbible.org/search/translationResults.cfm?Criteria=food&t=YLT&sf=5
"food"
occurs 157 times in 150 verses in the YLT

 

[bugkiller]

i wouldn't call them unspiritual. here's what i say.


we know that God gave the law.

the ten commandments define sin as unto God.



the civil law was for the COI's physical application of the "ten" as they lived as a civil society.

the ceremonial law was added because of transgression. in going through ritualistic worship, in the form of fleshly ordinances, the COI would learn the habit of obedience. these physical works of law had certain symbolic meaning, and of course, the sacrificial ordinance pointed to the Christ.

There is no place in Scripture showing ceremonial only was added. Indeed sacrifice was in place long before the law was issued.

bugkiller