Col.2{16} uhhh...cording to scripture

[JohnRabbit]

Read it again.

Your questions are answered there.

[quote=Clare73;61961317]


trivial elements = elemental forms of religion, whether those of the Jews (v.5, under the law) or
those of the Gentiles (v.8, under their former religious bondage)

of the world = these forms of religion do not come from the "new creation" (6:15), but the former creation

So which group is returning to their former trivial elements?

That is answered in v. 21: "Tell me, you who want to be under the law. . ."

Paul then gives an analogy of the law to Hagar, the slave, and concludes with: "Get rid of the slave woman (the law)
and her son (salvation by law-keeping), for the slave woman's son will never share in the inheritance
with the free woman's son (salvation by grace through faith in Jesus Christ).

Paul is treating of the law here, which is likewise treated of in Heb 7:18-19:

"The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless (for the law made nothing perfect/righteous),
and a better hope (new covenant) is introduced, by which we draw near to God." (Heb 7:18-19)

No, Heb 7:18-19 is referencing v.12:
"For when there is a change of the priesthood, there must also be a change of the law."

The subject of Heb 7:18-19 is pretty clear:
"The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless (for the law made nothing perfect/righteous)
and a better hope (new covenant of grace) is introduced"

So from Gal 4:21, we see that Paul is referring to the trivial elements of the Jews in Gal 4:9, which was the law,
[v.10, you are observing special days (Firstfruits, Trumpets, Atonement),
months (new moons), seasons (harvest feasts: Firstfruits, Weeks, Tabernacles), years (Sabbath years)]
and we see that the association of Gal 4:9 with Heb 7:18-19 is Biblically well founded.

In the faith,
Clare[/QUOTE]


still seems like you're mixing apples and oranges to me!

 

[Steve Petersen]

of course it counts, it became law!

again, it was one of the laws that was not written by God!

Then I have to ask, 'So what?'

 

[Clare73]

trivial elements = elemental forms of religion, whether those of the Jews (v.5, under the law)
or those of the Gentiles (v.8, under their former religious bondage)

of the world = these forms of religion do not come from the "new creation" (6:15), but the former creation

So which group is returning to their former trivial elements?

That is answered in Gal 4:21: "Tell me, you who want to be under the law. . ."

Paul then gives an analogy of the law to Hagar, the slave, and concludes with:
"Get rid of the slave woman (the law--Gal 5:30)
and her son (salvation by law-keeping), for the slave woman's son will never share in the inheritance
with the free woman's son (salvation by grace through faith in Jesus Christ).

Paul is treating of the law in Gal 4:9-30, which is likewise treated of in Heb 7:18-19:

"The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless (for the law made nothing perfect/righteous),
and a better hope (new covenant) is introduced, by which we draw near to God." (Heb 7:18-19)

No, Heb 7:18-19 is referencing v.12, not v.16.

"For when there is a change of the priesthood, there must also be a change of the law." (v.12)

The subject of Heb 7:18-19 is pretty clear:
"The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless (for the law made nothing perfect/righteous)
and a better hope (new covenant of grace) is introduced"

So from Gal 4:21, we see that Paul is referring to the trivial elements of the Jews in Gal 4:9, which was the law,

[v.10, you are observing special days (Firstfruits, Trumpets, Atonement),
months (new moons), seasons (harvest feasts: Firstfruits, Weeks, Tabernacles), years (Sabbath years)]
and we see that the association of Gal 4:9 with Heb 7:18-19 is Biblically well founded.

still seems like you're mixing apples and oranges to me!

Well, let's color code it.

The apples are in red, and they are seen to be the subject of both Gal 4:9-30 and Heb 7:18-19.

No oranges are found.

In the faith,
Clare

 

[Eph4:26]

Paul was doing away with the oral traditions of the Jews.

No, what Paul is saying is that the Mosaic law has been set aside as the way to God.

​

The weak and beggarly elements (Gal 4:6) of the law
have been set aside because they were weak and useless to obtain righteousness (Heb 7:18-19).

Your citation of Gal 4:6 may have been a typo:

Gal 4:6 Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!"

With respects to Heb 7:18-19, it is now widely agreed that Paul was not the author of that book. None the less, let's look at it closer:

7:19 for the Law made nothing perfect, and on the other hand there is a bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God.

Law, as it is used here is from the greek word nomos. Clearly referencing the Mosaic Law.

Returning to Paul's writing in Col. 2:8,

See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ.

Was Paul referring to the Mosaic Law as a empty deceptive philosophy?

2:14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross

decrees, as it is used here is from the greek word dogma. Clearly referencing the oral laws of the Jews.

If Paul was talking about the Mosaic Law, why did he use the word dogma instead of nomos?

Which brings me back to my conclusion that Paul was arguing against the the following of the oral traditions of his day, the halacha.

Today's equivalent would be Christmas.

 

[JohnRabbit]

Then I have to ask, 'So what?'

i see.

 

[JohnRabbit]

[/COLOR]Well, let's color code it.

The apples are in red, and they are seen to be the subject of both Gal 4:9-30 and Heb 7:18-19.

No oranges are found.

In the faith,
Clare

just can't go for that.

the verse said "elements of the world" and i don't see how what the COI received was of the world.

 

[Steve Petersen]

i see.

Is it your contention that what God wrote carries more weight than what He spoke?

 

[JohnRabbit]

Is it your contention that what God wrote carries more weight than what He spoke?

yes, the law is spiritual (romans 7:14).

i find it interesting that God wrote the spiritual law and moses wrote the physical application of the "ten" as statutes and judgements.

and, moses wrote the ceremonial ritual law, law that took physical labor to accomplish.

God wrote the law that if transgressed is called sin (1jn 3:4).

 

[Steve Petersen]

yes, the law is spiritual (romans 7:14).

i find it interesting that God wrote the spiritual law and moses wrote the physical application of the "ten" as statutes and judgements.

and, moses wrote the ceremonial ritual law, law that took physical labor to accomplish.

God wrote the law that if transgressed is called sin (1jn 3:4).

Over and over again God told Moses to speak to the children of Israel and then to speak God's commandments.

Leviticus 19 is a prime example. Here God gives civil, moral AND ritual commandments.

19:1 The Lord said to Moses, 2 “Speak to the entire assembly of Israel and say to them: ‘Be holy because I, the Lord your God, am holy.

3 “‘Each of you must respect your mother and father, and you must observe my Sabbaths. I am the Lord your God.

4 “‘Do not turn to idols or make metal gods for yourselves. I am the Lord your God.

5 “‘When you sacrifice a fellowship offering to the Lord, sacrifice it in such a way that it will be accepted on your behalf. 6 It shall be eaten on the day you sacrifice it or on the next day; anything left over until the third day must be burned up. 7 If any of it is eaten on the third day, it is impure and will not be accepted. 8 Whoever eats it will be held responsible because they have desecrated what is holy to the Lord; they must be cut off from their people.

9 “‘When you reap the harvest of your land, do not reap to the very edges of your field or gather the gleanings of your harvest. 10 Do not go over your vineyard a second time or pick up the grapes that have fallen. Leave them for the poor and the foreigner. I am the Lord your God.

11 “‘Do not steal.

“‘Do not lie.

“‘Do not deceive one another.

12 “‘Do not swear falsely by my name and so profane the name of your God. I am the Lord.

13 “‘Do not defraud or rob your neighbor.

“‘Do not hold back the wages of a hired worker overnight.

14 “‘Do not curse the deaf or put a stumbling block in front of the blind, but fear your God. I am the Lord.

15 “‘Do not pervert justice; do not show partiality to the poor or favoritism to the great, but judge your neighbor fairly.

16 “‘Do not go about spreading slander among your people.

“‘Do not do anything that endangers your neighbor’s life. I am the Lord.

17 “‘Do not hate a fellow Israelite in your heart. Rebuke your neighbor frankly so you will not share in their guilt.

18 “‘Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against anyone among your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the Lord.

19 “‘Keep my decrees.

“‘Do not mate different kinds of animals.

“‘Do not plant your field with two kinds of seed.

“‘Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material.

20 “‘If a man sleeps with a female slave who is promised to another man but who has not been ransomed or given her freedom, there must be due punishment.[a] Yet they are not to be put to death, because she had not been freed. 21 The man, however, must bring a ram to the entrance to the tent of meeting for a guilt offering to the Lord. 22 With the ram of the guilt offering the priest is to make atonement for him before the Lord for the sin he has committed, and his sin will be forgiven.

23 “‘When you enter the land and plant any kind of fruit tree, regard its fruit as forbidden. For three years you are to consider it forbidden[c]; it must not be eaten. 24 In the fourth year all its fruit will be holy, an offering of praise to the Lord. 25 But in the fifth year you may eat its fruit. In this way your harvest will be increased. I am the Lord your God.

26 “‘Do not eat any meat with the blood still in it.

“‘Do not practice divination or seek omens.

27 “‘Do not cut the hair at the sides of your head or clip off the edges of your beard.

28 “‘Do not cut your bodies for the dead or put tattoo marks on yourselves. I am the Lord.

29 “‘Do not degrade your daughter by making her a prostitute, or the land will turn to prostitution and be filled with wickedness.

30 “‘Observe my Sabbaths and have reverence for my sanctuary. I am the Lord.

31 “‘Do not turn to mediums or seek out spiritists, for you will be defiled by them. I am the Lord your God.

32 “‘Stand up in the presence of the aged, show respect for the elderly and revere your God. I am the Lord.

33 “‘When a foreigner resides among you in your land, do not mistreat them. 34 The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the Lord your God.

35 “‘Do not use dishonest standards when measuring length, weight or quantity. 36 Use honest scales and honest weights, an honest ephah[d] and an honest hin.[e] I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt.

37 “‘Keep all my decrees and all my laws and follow them. I am the Lord.' "

It doesn't appear that God made a distinction between civil, moral, and ritual commandments.

Now, God did not WRITE any of these above commandments either. Would you call them 'unspiritual' then?

 

[bugkiller]

just can't go for that.

the verse said "elements of the world" and i don't see how what the COI received was of the world.

So what do you think these elements of the world are that Paul refers to?

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

yes, the law is spiritual (romans 7:14).

i find it interesting that God wrote the spiritual law and moses wrote the physical application of the "ten" as statutes and judgements.

and, moses wrote the ceremonial ritual law, law that took physical labor to accomplish.

God wrote the law that if transgressed is called sin (1jn 3:4).

So what. The Source is the same for both.

bugkiller

 

[Clare73]

Your citation of Gal 4:6 may have been a typo:

Gal 4:6 Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!"

Indeed, it was. It should have been Gal 4:9.

With respects to Heb 7:18-19, it is now widely agreed that Paul was not the author of that book.

I've always thought Apollos was the author.

In the faith,
Clare

 

[Clare73]

just can't go for that.

the verse said "elements of the world" and i don't see how what the COI received was of the world.

Sorry you're having trouble.

In the faith,
Clare

 

[Frogster]

​

Your citation of Gal 4:6 may have been a typo:

Gal 4:6 Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!"

With respects to Heb 7:18-19, it is now widely agreed that Paul was not the author of that book. None the less, let's look at it closer:

7:19 for the Law made nothing perfect, and on the other hand there is a bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God.

Law, as it is used here is from the greek word nomos. Clearly referencing the Mosaic Law.

Returning to Paul's writing in Col. 2:8,

See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ.

Was Paul referring to the Mosaic Law as a empty deceptive philosophy?

2:14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross

decrees, as it is used here is from the greek word dogma. Clearly referencing the oral laws of the Jews.

If Paul was talking about the Mosaic Law, why did he use the word dogma instead of nomos?

Which brings me back to my conclusion that Paul was arguing against the the following of the oral traditions of his day, the halacha.

Today's equivalent would be Christmas.

but the verse before says we were dead in these transgressions, were we dead in mens traditions? No, it was the law. Were we forgiven of those transgressions against the traditions of men?


Col 2:13 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses,

 

[Frogster]

just can't go for that.

the verse said "elements of the world" and i don't see how what the COI received was of the world.

it can mean abc's..things in a row, in the greek, that is why it says children, in 4:3, and in 4:1, the child, all showing an adolescent dependancy, on the govenors, mangers which are for children, all showing the simplistic elementals, the good boy, bad boy thing for children, the elementals, the basic principles, the rudiments in some translations.

Paul says "we' were under in 4:3, what we was he in but judaism, and what law was Jesus born under? it says the law right in Gal 4;4.

4:4 But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law,

 

[Frogster]

Why would you throw out Galatians? Everybodys always yelling...context context. Read it in context! Takes only a few moments to read the whole book of Galatians. Circumscision is mentioned 16 times. What LAW do you suppose they are talking about. Yeah thats right. The law of circumscision.

and if one is snipped, one must????????:

3 I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole law.

good to see ya wall....

 

[Frogster]

Why do all seem to point to the book of Galatians as having anything to do with Gods 10 commandments? The book of Galatians is a book containing 6 very short chapters. In these 6 chapters circumcision is mentioned 16 times. The commandments are not mentioned. Not once. Yet, those people that wish to do away with GODS commandments use scriptures from Galatians to try and do so. The law of circumcism is one of the carnal ordinances of the law that were nailed to the cross. Those that wish to do away with Gods 10 commandments will also try and tell you that the ordinances and the ten commandments are simply parts of the law and are not separate from one another. In saying that they will point to a scripture thats speaking of circumcision and then apply that scripture to Gods 10 commandments. This is done to extreme in the book of Galatians. The scripture below separates the law, the commandments and the ordinances

2 KINGS 17 [36] But the LORD, who brought you up out of the land of Egypt with great power and a stretched out arm, him shall ye fear, and him shall ye worship, and to him shall ye do sacrifice.[37] AND the statutes, AND the ordinances, AND the law, AND the commandment, which he wrote for you, ye shall observe to do for evermore; and ye shall not fear other gods.

AND means AND

1 COR. 7 [19] Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

And although the law of circumcision was nailed to the cross, Gods law (the 10 commandments) are to be kept.

the book of the law, contained the 10, and in 5;24 he mentions the cross, and the sinful nature, it was not just ceremonies in galatians.

galatians was about the whole law, or u r saying Christ only redeemed for some of the law on the cross.


3:10 For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.” 11 Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.”[d] 12 But the law is not of faith, rather “The one who does them shall live by them.” 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”—

 

[Frogster]

Um, except Paul must have know that circumcision was a commandment from God (Lev. 12:3.) And anyone who sets aside the commandment of God is a false prophet (Deut. 18.)

David ate the showbread, and jesus said that was against the law.


way too much support for paul from luke to try that, besides a jewish prophet named silas started churches with paul.

Peter said no snipping for the churches, and james agreed in acts 15, and peter called the law a yoke, and don't test Jod by adding snipping, as james agreed.

 

[Frogster]

Jesus also said this:

Luke 16:17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to lose authority.

yet a whole lotta torah went down, with the temple, there goes a buncha tittle.

 

[Frogster]

actually, it's gal 4:9 and it's not refering to the law, so you're association to heb 7:18-19 is unfounded!

here's why:

Galatians 4:3,9(NKJV)
3Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world... 9But now after you have known God, or rather are known by God, how is it that you turn again to the weak and beggarly elements, to which you desire again to be in bondage?

see?

gal 4:9 is referencing verse 3 where it said we are under the bondage of the elements of the world not the law!

however, heb 7:18-19 is referencing verse 16, of the same chapter, which is speaking of Christ:

Hebrews 7:16(NKJV)
16who has come, not according to the law of a fleshly commandment, but according to the power of an endless life.


the fleshly commandment, IOW, the ceremonial ritualistic law.

no amount washing could make you "clean", as the act was symbolic of the Holy Spirit to come as with all the "works of law" that took physical labor to accomplish!

that's why paul said:

Galatians 2:16(NKJV)
16knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.

and this can be extended to the spiritual law, the ten commandments, because no amount of commandment keeping saves anyone!

only Jesus saves!

in light of rom 7:4, and gal 2:19-20, died to law through the body, and eph 2;15, abolished in his flesh, and the cross word in Eph 2:13, we see the death and law conjuntion with christ, and the cross, the body, and it was THE law.

Question..are you saying christ died to oral law here, to man's laws, because it says died WITH WITH christ to the elemenatals? Did christ die to some other law, the law of man? mens decrees? it is the same decree word as 2:14, it was the law. Unless u think Christ died to man's decrees...?



Col 2:20 If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of the world, why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to decrees, such as,