Col 2:16 is about not judging others

[BobRyan]

Colossians 2 is not about condemning sections of the Bible - though many man-made traditions imagine this to be the case.

 

[Bob S]

And then the 1050 commands in the NT ? Or did you decide to ignore those?

Sick comment Bob.

 

[BobRyan]

In the dark ages papal pronouncement and condemnation fooled the masses - and would "suffice".

But in the light of day - in the modern age... Bible details are not 'sick' -- they are what matters.

hence..

]In this following post it is pointed out that in Col 2 - we do not find Paul condemning the Bible, no condemnation of eating, no condemnation of drinking - and no condemnation of God's Sabbath as we find it in the Ten Commandments.


Col 2 is about making up a rule and judging others of being guilty of sin because they differ with you, even if that invented rule is related to a Bible command.

But Col 2 is not an attempt by Paul to delete the scriptures. Rather Paul condemns the idea of making stuff up that is not in scripture at all - where the only source/authority is "man".

Col 2:18 Let no one keep defrauding you of your prize by delighting in self-abasement and the worship of the angels, taking his stand on visions he has seen, inflatedwithout cause by his fleshly mind,
19 and not holding fast to the head, from whom the entire body, being supplied and held together by the joints and ligaments, grows with a growth which is from God.


Col 2
20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
22 Which all are to perish with the using after the commandments and doctrines of men? 23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body: not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh. (KJV)

Col 2
20 If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of the world, why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to decrees, such as,
21 “Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!” 22 (which all refer to things destined to perish with use)—in accordance with the commandments and teachings of men?
23 These are matters which have, to be sure, the appearance of wisdom in self-made religion and self-abasement and severe treatment of the body, but are of no value against fleshly indulgence.(NASB)

=========================

In Mark 7:6-13 the Jews were simply "making stuff up" to get around one of the TEN Commandments - and of course Christ condemned them for that.

In Mark 2:19-22 they did it as well and Christ refuted their arguments.

Is it any wonder that in Col 2 the saints were contending with the same problem of man-made-doctrine and traditions -- "making stuff up"??

Not at all surprising.

 

[Bob S]

Col2:16-17 is about shadows. 16 "Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ."

Man made laws are not shadows of things to come.

 

[Travis93]

We will be keeping the feasts in the future, see Zechariah 14:16 and Ezekiel 46:3, so what Paul is saying is not to let people judge you for keeping them. It would be mighty hypocritical of him to discourage others from keeping feasts when he kept them himself (Acts 18:21, Acts 20:6-16, Acts 27:9).

 

[BobRyan]

Col2:16-17 is about shadows. 16 "Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ."

Man made laws are not shadows of things to come.

What part of what God wrote with his own hand and spoke with his own mouth - do you call "man made"??

 

[Bob S]

What part of what God wrote with his own hand and spoke with his own mouth - do you call "man made"??

Ryan wrote:
But Col 2 is not an attempt by Paul to delete the scriptures. Rather Paul condemns the idea of making stuff up that is not in scripture at all - where the only source/authority is "man".

And I wrote that man made laws are not shadows of things to come. Jesus is now our reality. Sabbath, new moons and feasts are not man made, they are part of scripture, but they became shadows with Christ's appearing. You and the Messianics are observing shadows.

Shadow =
a hint or faint, indistinct image or idea; intimation:
shadows of things to come.
a mere semblance:

 

[bugkiller]

What part of what God wrote with his own hand and spoke with his own mouth - do you call "man made"??

Say Bob, since the Sabbath is so important why is there no record of Jesus meeting with His disciples on the Sabbath after the Cross? There is mention of Jesus with His disciples on the first day of the week.

bugkiller

 

[BobRyan]

Say Bob, since the Sabbath is so important why is there no record of Jesus meeting with His disciples on the Sabbath after the cross

I think you meant to ASK --

Why is there more reference to Gentiles keeping the Sabbath in the NT than in the OT?

Why is there no reference to Jesus saying "do not take God's name in vain after the cross"

Why is there no reference to Jesus saying "Love God with all your heart" after the cross?

Why are there no weekly first-day meetings after the cross where Jesus says "week day 1 is the Lord's Day"??

Why are there no weekly first day meeting of the form "every week day 1" between Christ and his disciples after the cross?

=========================

Now lets talk about what we DO have in the Bible -- for a change.


For those who read Gen 2:1-3 and Ex 20:11 pointing directly at the Gen 2:1-3 statement

Ex 20:11
11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

Gen 2:1-3
Thus the heavens and the earth were completed, and all their hosts. 2 By the seventh day God completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.

No wonder Christ said
"the Sabbath was MADE for MANKIND" Mark 2:27

No wonder EVEN the OT scope for Sabbath is "ALL MANKIND"
"and from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship" Isaiah 66:23

"there REMAINS therefore a SABBATH rest for the people of God" Heb 4:9 - "Remains" from what it was in Psalms 96 - at the time of David

"the saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12

With the Sabbath Commandment itself quoted from in the case of Rev 14:7


=========================== so then.

It is no wonder that EVEN the pro-sunday chrisian source are often found admitting to this key Bible fact that the Bible Sabbath Command applies even today - to all Christians under the NEW Covenant.

The Baptist Confession of Faith,
the Westminster Confession of Faith ,
D.L. Moody,
R.C Sproul,
Matthew Henry,
Thomas Watson
Eastern Orthodox Catechism
The Catholic Catechism

 

[BobRyan]

Still - your focus may indeed still be on what we do not find in the Bible...

Very well



1. There is not one NT or OT text saying "week day 1 is the Holy Day of the LORD" but we DO have that for Sabbath in Is 58:13. (AND we do not have ONE text in the NT or OT that says "week day 1 is the LORD's Day)

2. There is not ONE text in the NT or OT that says that "they met EVERY week-day-1 for gospel teaching" for both Jews AND gentiles but we DO have that for Sabbath in Acts 18:4-6.

3. There is not ONE text in the NT or OT that says "they met week-day-1 after week-day-1 " for anything - but we DO have that in Acts 13 and Acts 17 regarding Sabbath for both Jews AND Gentiles.

4. There is not ONE text in the NT or OT saying "from week day 1 to week day 1 shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship" - but we DO have that in Is 66:23 for the Sabbath.

5. There is not ONE text in the NT or OT saying "the Son of man is LORD of week day 1" but we DO have that in the NT for the Sabbath in Mark 2:28.

6. There is not ONE text in the NT saying "there REMAINS therefore a week-day 1 rest for the people of God" but we DO have that for Sabbath in Heb 4.

7. There is not ONE text in NT or OT saying "remember week-day-1 to keep it holy" but we DO have that in Ex 20:8 for the Sabbath.

8. There is NOT ONE text in NT or OT saying it is ok by God if we bend/edit/break/ignore one of the TEN Commandments - but we DO have condemnation for doing such a thing in the NT -- by the Words of Christ Himself! Mark 7:6-13

======================================= so then

What does Christ say about those whose doctrine does not come from the bible but in fact seeks to bend/alter/break what is written in the Bible?

Mark 7

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the Commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the Word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

That is a case of Christ demonstrating the way that the magisterium is hammered "sola scriptura" in the cases where it's traditions and "doctrines of men" are at odds with scripture.

 

[Travis93]

Say Bob, since the Sabbath is so important why is there no record of Jesus meeting with His disciples on the Sabbath after the Cross? There is mention of Jesus with His disciples on the first day of the week.

bugkiller

Jesus's final meeting with the apostles and ascension to heaven (Acts 1:3-11) was on the sabbath day.
Acts 1:12 Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey.
But the day he met them doesn't matter. After all, he appeared to Thomas on the second day of the week (John 20:26, 8 days after his appearance on the first day in John 20:19), and no one venerates that day. Just because a command isn't restated in the New Testament doesn't mean it's not still the word of God. Jesus said man lives on every word that comes from God (Matthew 4:4), and Paul agrees by saying all scripture is profitable for our instruction in righteousness (2 Timothy 3:16). Jesus said not to think he came to destroy the law (Matthew 5:17-19), and Paul agrees by saying faith establishes the law rather than voids it (Romans 3:31).

 

[1John2:4]

Still - your focus may indeed still be on what we do not find in the Bible...

Very well



1. There is not one NT or OT text saying "week day 1 is the Holy Day of the LORD" but we DO have that for Sabbath in Is 58:13. (AND we do not have ONE text in the NT or OT that says "week day 1 is the LORD's Day)

2. There is not ONE text in the NT or OT that says that "they met EVERY week-day-1 for gospel teaching" for both Jews AND gentiles but we DO have that for Sabbath in Acts 18:4-6.

3. There is not ONE text in the NT or OT that says "they met week-day-1 after week-day-1 " for anything - but we DO have that in Acts 13 and Acts 17 regarding Sabbath for both Jews AND Gentiles.

4. There is not ONE text in the NT or OT saying "from week day 1 to week day 1 shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship" - but we DO have that in Is 66:23 for the Sabbath.

5. There is not ONE text in the NT or OT saying "the Son of man is LORD of week day 1" but we DO have that in the NT for the Sabbath in Mark 2:28.

6. There is not ONE text in the NT saying "there REMAINS therefore a week-day 1 rest for the people of God" but we DO have that for Sabbath in Heb 4.

7. There is not ONE text in NT or OT saying "remember week-day-1 to keep it holy" but we DO have that in Ex 20:8 for the Sabbath.

8. There is NOT ONE text in NT or OT saying it is ok by God if we bend/edit/break/ignore one of the TEN Commandments - but we DO have condemnation for doing such a thing in the NT -- by the Words of Christ Himself! Mark 7:6-13

======================================= so then

What does Christ say about those whose doctrine does not come from the bible but in fact seeks to bend/alter/break what is written in the Bible?

Mark 7

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the Commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the Word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

That is a case of Christ demonstrating the way that the magisterium is hammered "sola scriptura" in the cases where it's traditions and "doctrines of men" are at odds with scripture.

I like this verse too
Matthew 24: 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath.

 

[bugkiller]

I think you meant to ASK --

No I meant what I asked. Please address my question.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Jesus's final meeting with the apostles and ascension to heaven (Acts 1:3-11) was on the sabbath day.
Acts 1:12 Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey.
But the day he met them doesn't matter. After all, he appeared to Thomas on the second day of the week (John 20:26, 8 days after his appearance on the first day in John 20:19), and no one venerates that day. Just because a command isn't restated in the New Testament doesn't mean it's not still the word of God. Jesus said man lives on every word that comes from God (Matthew 4:4), and Paul agrees by saying all scripture is profitable for our instruction in righteousness (2 Timothy 3:16). Jesus said not to think he came to destroy the law (Matthew 5:17-19), and Paul agrees by saying faith establishes the law rather than voids it (Romans 3:31).

How do you get Sabbath day in Acts 1:3-11? I read the assentation was on day 40. Day 50 is the first day of the week being Pentecost.

No one I know venerates Sunday.

The rest of your post only adds issues and confusion changing the subject with each statement.

bugkiller

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I like this verse too
Matthew 24: 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!
20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath.

Sounds pretty much like what happened to Jerusalem in 70ad

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/why-jerusalem-is-mystically-called-sodom-and-egypt.7570002/

Luke 21:23 "Woe to the ones in belly having and the ones suckling in those the Days!
For shall be great distress upon the Land and Wrath upon this people.

Revelation 18:
4 And I hear another voice out of the heaven saying "come forth! out of Her My people!......................
8 by this, in one day shall be arriving the blows of Her, death and sorrow and famine; and in fire She shall be being burned,
that strong Lord, the God, the one judging Her

http://www.bible.ca/pre-destruction70AD-george-holford-1805AD.htm

.........The day on which Titus encompassed Jerusalem, was the feast of the Passover.
At this season multitudes came up from all the surrounding country, and from distant parts, to keep the festival and the city was at this time crowded with Jewish strangers,...........

.........Meanwhile the horrors of famine grew still more melancholy and afflictive.
The Jews, for want of food were at length compelled to eat their belts, their sandals, the skins of their shields, dried grass, and even the ordure of oxen.
In the depth or this horrible extremity, a Jewess of noble family urged by the intolerable cravings of hunger, slew her infant child, and prepared it for a meal ;......................



.

 

[1John2:4]

Sounds pretty much like what happened to Jerusalem in 70ad

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/why-jerusalem-is-mystically-called-sodom-and-egypt.7570002/

Luke 21:23 "Woe to the ones in belly having and the ones suckling in those the Days!
For shall be great distress upon the Land and Wrath upon this people.

Revelation 18:
4 And I hear another voice out of the heaven saying "come forth! out of Her My people!......................
8 by this, in one day shall be arriving the blows of Her, death and sorrow and famine; and in fire She shall be being burned,
that strong Lord, the God, the one judging Her

http://www.bible.ca/pre-destruction70AD-george-holford-1805AD.htm

.........The day on which Titus encompassed Jerusalem, was the feast of the Passover.
At this season multitudes came up from all the surrounding country, and from distant parts, to keep the festival and the city was at this time crowded with Jewish strangers,...........

.........Meanwhile the horrors of famine grew still more melancholy and afflictive.
The Jews, for want of food were at length compelled to eat their belts, their sandals, the skins of their shields, dried grass, and even the ordure of oxen.
In the depth or this horrible extremity, a Jewess of noble family urged by the intolerable cravings of hunger, slew her infant child, and prepared it for a meal ;......................



.

I get that the Nazarenes fled during 70ad at the destruction of the temple just as Yeshua predicted in Matthew 24:19 and Luke 21:23. Other than that I am totally confused on the point you are making. Will you please elaborate, I'm sorry sometimes I am a little slow, thanks

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

LittleLambofJesus said: ↑
Sounds pretty much like what happened to Jerusalem in 70ad..........

I get that the Nazarenes fled during 70ad at the destruction of the temple just as Yeshua predicted in Matthew 24:19 and Luke 21:23. Other than that I am totally confused on the point you are making.
Will you please elaborate, I'm sorry sometimes I am a little slow, thanks

That is ok.
Matthew 24 describes the "Parousia" of the Lord as also do the epistles.
Btw, where is the Parousia shown in Revelation?

Matthew 24:3
He is yet sitting on the mount of the Olives, the disciples toward-came to Him according to own, saying, `Tell us! when shall these be? and what the Sign of Thy ParousiaV <3952>, and of the together-finish/sun-teleiaV <4930> of the Age?' [Daniel 12/Revelation 19]

1 Thessalonians 3:13
Into the stand-fast of ye, the hearts blameless in together-holiness before the God and Father of us in the Parousia <3952> of the Lord of us, Jesus Christ, with all of the holy-ones of Him [Zech 14:5/Revelation 19:11.]
James 5:8
be ye patient! and stand-fast! the hearts of ye,
that the Parousia <3952> of the Lord has-neared/hggiken <1448> (5758);

2 Peter 3:
12 toward-hoping and being-diligent of the Parousian<3952> of the God.
A day thru which heavens being fired, shall be being loosed, and elements burning is being melted

...................................

 

[BobRyan]

Sounds pretty much like what happened to Jerusalem in 70ad

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/why-jerusalem-is-mystically-called-sodom-and-egypt.7570002/

Luke 21:23 "Woe to the ones in belly having and the ones suckling in those the Days!
For shall be great distress upon the Land and Wrath upon this people.

Revelation 18:
4 And I hear another voice out of the heaven saying "come forth! out of Her My people!......................
8 by this, in one day shall be arriving the blows of Her, death and sorrow and famine; and in fire She shall be being burned,
that strong Lord, the God, the one judging Her


.

Hint - Revelation 18 is written around 90 A.D.
and is about the future just before the Rev 19 second coming of Christ - and just before the Rev 20 1000 year millennium and the Rev 20 post-millennial lake of Fire and Great White Throne Judgment.

But -- if we ignore all of that. Well... then ... maybe

 

[bugkiller]

Sounds pretty much like what happened to Jerusalem in 70ad

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/why-jerusalem-is-mystically-called-sodom-and-egypt.7570002/

Luke 21:23 "Woe to the ones in belly having and the ones suckling in those the Days!
For shall be great distress upon the Land and Wrath upon this people.

Revelation 18:
4 And I hear another voice out of the heaven saying "come forth! out of Her My people!......................
8 by this, in one day shall be arriving the blows of Her, death and sorrow and famine; and in fire She shall be being burned,
that strong Lord, the God, the one judging Her

http://www.bible.ca/pre-destruction70AD-george-holford-1805AD.htm

.........The day on which Titus encompassed Jerusalem, was the feast of the Passover.
At this season multitudes came up from all the surrounding country, and from distant parts, to keep the festival and the city was at this time crowded with Jewish strangers,...........

.........Meanwhile the horrors of famine grew still more melancholy and afflictive.
The Jews, for want of food were at length compelled to eat their belts, their sandals, the skins of their shields, dried grass, and even the ordure of oxen.
In the depth or this horrible extremity, a Jewess of noble family urged by the intolerable cravings of hunger, slew her infant child, and prepared it for a meal ;......................

Thanks Lambster, that's exactly what I had in mind when I read the post you responded to.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Hint - Revelation 18 is written around 90 A.D.
and is about the future just before the Rev 19 second coming of Christ - and just before the Rev 20 1000 year millennium and the Rev 20 post-millennial lake of Fire and Great White Throne Judgment.

But -- if we ignore all of that. Well... then ... maybe

And you think both Matthew and Revelation refer to the same thing. Yes I understand you used Luke in your response to LLOJ. That could be changing the subject.

bugkiller