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COL 2:14-17 The REAL truth from God's Word

Discussion in 'Sabbath and The Law' started by LoveGodsWord, Aug 10, 2017.

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  1. listed

    listed are you?

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    Yes we note your c&p spam posts.
     
  2. listed

    listed are you?

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    You don't recognize a direct reference to the ten commandments? Surely you're putting us on.
     
  3. listed

    listed are you?

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    He did. And like you didn't make any direct comment on the posted Scripture.
     
  4. listed

    listed are you?

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    The word is defined as the rules and requirements of the law of Moses; carrying a suggestion of severity and of threatened judgment
     
  5. listed

    listed are you?

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    I think he's grabbing bits and pieces linking them together.
     
  6. listed

    listed are you?

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    You're trying to change words.
     
  7. listed

    listed are you?

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    You're confused and trying to confuse us. Your post is self contradictory.
     
  8. listed

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    There really is no call to analysis of all the references.
     
  9. The7thColporteur

    The7thColporteur Well-Known Member

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    What? I cited [Link] 1 Timothy 2:5 KJB in reference to Jesus being the New Man, "the man", which is a link to 1 Corinthians 15:44-46 KJB, which I also cited, which links back to Mark 2:27 KJB in a greater fulfillment, then the post continued:

    "... Here is the evidence from scripture [KJB] in irrefutable facts - [Link] & [Link] & [Link] & [Link] & [Link] ..."​

    That Jesus is Israel, I clearly cited [Link] Matthew 2:13-15; Hosea 11:1; Romans 9:6-8, etc.
     
  10. klutedavid

    klutedavid Well-Known Member

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    The following New Testament translation took place in the fourth century, while Koine Greek was still the common language. So the Bible translators knew exactly how to translate the Koine Greek because they spoke it.

    Colossians 2:14 (Latin Vulgate, fourth century)
    And wiping away the handwriting of the decree which was against us, which was contrary to us. And he has taken this away from your midst, affixing it to the Cross.
     
  11. klutedavid

    klutedavid Well-Known Member

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    Israel is the shadow, not the reality.
     
  12. The7thColporteur

    The7thColporteur Well-Known Member

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    First of all, citing the corrupted Jerome's vulgate [he himself addmitted to altering the text, the original vulgate, Vetus latina - the 'Italic', under orders, look it up - [Link]] of the Roman Catholic church is not gonna get you very far, but more importantly, the word in the Koine Greek, is not "the decree", singular. It is clearly plural:

    δογμασινG1378 N-DPN​

    Therefore, the Latin vulgate of Jerome is in error even at this point.

    However, we simply go to the word, and see where elsewhere in scripture it is used. It is not used of the Ten Commandments.

    The words "cheirografon toiV dogmasin" never mean "certificate of debt" in scripture [and that is not a literal equivalency, and even more than a 'dynamic', but truly someone's own private [incorrect] paraphrase]

    cheirografon – G5498 N-ASN

    toiV – G3588 T-DPN

    dogmasin – G1378 N-DPN​

    The word "cheirografon" literally means "cheiro" [hand] & "grafon" [writing]:

    See "cheiro" [translated as “hand” 89 times or “hands” 90 times, per KJC] - https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/lexicon.cfm?strongs=G5495&t=KJB

    See "grafon" [translated as “written” 121 times, or “write” 50 times, or “wrote” 21 times, or “describeth” 1 time or “writing” 1 time, per KJC] - https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/lexicon.cfm?strongs=G1125&t=KJB

    And do not merely take any concordance definition, but simply utilize the concordance to look at all the Bible passages to see how the word is defined and used in scripture itself [as per Isaiah 28:10; 1 Corinthians 2:13 KJB, etc].

    The word "toiV" can have several uses in scripture [KJB], and in this instance means "of" - https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G3588&t=KJB

    The word "dogmasin" literally means "dogma" [see Websters 1828 for helpful def., but always remember to define scripture by scripture] which comes to be:


    The related word in the very same passage of Colossians 2, is "dogmatizesthe":

    Colossians 2:20 KJB Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,​

    Yet we know that the Ten Commandments are not of this earth/world, not carnal, but of Heaven, spiritual:

    Exodus 20:22 KJB And the LORD said unto Moses, Thus thou shalt say unto the children of Israel, Ye have seen that I have talked with you from heaven.

    Romans 7:14 KJB For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.​

    These are the carnal ordinances, even the law of commandments in ordinances, even the handwritten ordinances [by Moses] imposed upon Israel back in the books of Moses. It is not anyone ones sins here, for these "ordinances" were for the "worldly sanctuary" to do its service, and for sacrifices, etc, see also Ezekiel 43:18

    And he said unto me, Son of man, thus saith the Lord GOD; These [are] the ordinances of the altar in the day when they shall make it, to offer burnt offerings thereon, and to sprinkle blood thereon. Ezekiel 43:18

    Luke 1:6 makes mention again of these, as other passages:

    Luke 1:6 "And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless."

    Numbers 9:12 "They shall leave none of it unto the morning, nor break any bone of it: according to all the ordinances of the passover they shall keep it."

    2 Chronicles 33:8 "... take heed to do all that I have commanded them, according to the whole law and the statutes and the ordinances by the hand of Moses."​

    These refer to things, even as found in Numbers 9:3 KJB

    Numbers 9:3 KJB In the fourteenth day of this month, at even, ye shall keep it in his appointed season: according to all the rites of it, and according to all the ceremonies thereof, shall ye keep it.​

    In fact, when looking at the context of Colossians 2, in the handwritten [by Moses] “ordinances” thereof, we read nothing of the Ten Commandments, but only of things pertaining to the earthly sanctuary and its services, in carnal things, that came afterwards under the Levitical priesthood.

    See also for further detail:

    Even if we go to the so-called LXX [the work of Origen in his Hexapla, which Jerome admitted as being older than his own work], we see in Esther 3:9, that it deals with a handwritten ordinance for the destruction of the Jews, written by a man, and nothing to do with moral Commandments of God, which were directly spoken by God Himself from Heaven.
     
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2018
  13. The7thColporteur

    The7thColporteur Well-Known Member

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    Jesus is the true Israel. The peoples Israel were the shadow.
     
  14. The7thColporteur

    The7thColporteur Well-Known Member

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    Colossians 2:

    The questions:

    [1] Where is Paul quoting from in the Old Testament specifically, in regards to Colossians 2:14-17?

    There are several texts Paul is utilizing [for ex. Psalms 98:1-3 for just a single reference, are there then any others?], and it is easy to see, especially with the KJB.

    Consider again, Colossians 2:15:

    Colossians 2:15 KJB - [And] having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.​

    Now, consider Psalms 98:1-3:

    [[A Psalm.]] O sing unto the LORD a new song; for he hath done marvellous things: his right hand, and his holy arm, hath gotten him the victory. Psalms 98:1

    The LORD hath made known his salvation: his righteousness hath he openly shewed in the sight of the heathen. Psalms 98:2

    He hath remembered his mercy and his truth toward the house of Israel: all the ends of the earth have seen the salvation of our God. Psalms 98:3

    The English is plain enough, but even if you consider the underlying Greek [since people like to play the Greek/Hebrew game] of Colossians 2:15, "ἐδειγμάτισεν" ["made a shew of them openly"] is also similarly used in Matthew 1:19 and Hebrews 6:6, as "παραδειγματίσαι" ["a publick example"] and "παραδειγματίζοντας" ["to an open shame"] respectively.

    The two sets of phrases,

    [1] "χειρογραφον τοις δογμασιν" and

    [2] "ἐδειγμάτισεν"​

    are interesting.

    Also, the word “spoiled”, in the underlying Greek is “απεκδυσαμενος”, and is used again in Colossians 3:9, where it reads “have put off”, meaning to “strip away” [remove] as a garment being laid aside, removed, de-robed, unclothed, etc.

    The words “the principalities and the powers” in the underlying Greek is “τας αρχας και τας εξουσιας”, which are also used in Ephesians 3:10, 6:12; Colossians 1:16; Titus 3:1. These may refer to heavenly intelligences [unfallen or fallen] or earthly intelligences [mankind - righteous or wicked].

    Additionally, “τας αρχας και τας εξουσιας” is also found in Luke 12:11, as “[unto] magistrates and powers”.

    Furthermore, “τη αρχη και τη εξουσια” is found in Luke 20:20, as “the power and authority”.

    In Romans 8:38, we read slightly differently, “ουτε αρχαι ουτε δυναμεις” which is “nor principalities, nor powers”.

    In 1 Corinthians 15:24, it is given as “αρχην και πασαν εξουσιαν και δυναμιν”, which is “all rule and all authority and power”.

    In Ephesians 1:21, we read “πασης αρχης και εξουσιας και δυναμεως”, which is “all principality, and power, and might”.

    In Colossians 2:10, we read “πασης αρχης και εξουσιας”, which is “all principality and power”.

    Jude 1:6, also mentions the “αρχην”, the Arch-Offices [estates].​
     
  15. The7thColporteur

    The7thColporteur Well-Known Member

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    [2] What, specifically, is the “handwriting of ordinances”, that Paul is speaking of, for he is again referring to the Old Testament usage from which he is quoting, and does he utilize the same language anywhere else in the NT, if so where?

    What do we see of this "hand" "writ[ing]" of "ordinances"?

    By the hand of Moses: Leviticus 8:36, 10:11, 26:46; Numbers 4:37,45,49, 9:23, 10:13, 15:23, 16:40, 27:23, 36:13; Joshua 14:2, 20:2, 21:2,8, 22:9; Judges 3:4; 1 Kings 8:53,56; 2 Chronicles 33:8, 35:6; Nehemiah 9:14.

    Leviticus 8:36 KJB So Aaron and his sons did all things which the LORD commanded by the hand of Moses.

    Leviticus 10:11 KJB And that ye may teach the children of Israel all the statutes which the LORD hath spoken unto them by the hand of Moses.

    Leviticus 26:46 KJB These are the statutes and judgments and laws, which the LORD made between him and the children of Israel in mount Sinai by the hand of Moses.

    Numbers 4:37 KJB These were they that were numbered of the families of the Kohathites, all that might do service in the tabernacle of the congregation, which Moses and Aaron did number according to the commandment of the LORD by the hand of Moses.

    Numbers 4:45 KJB These be those that were numbered of the families of the sons of Merari, whom Moses and Aaron numbered according to the word of the LORD by the hand of Moses.

    Numbers 4:49 KJB According to the commandment of the LORD they were numbered by the hand of Moses, every one according to his service, and according to his burden: thus were they numbered of him, as the LORD commanded Moses.

    Numbers 9:23 KJB At the commandment of the LORD they rested in the tents, and at the commandment of the LORD they journeyed: they kept the charge of the LORD, at the commandment of the LORD by the hand of Moses.

    Numbers 10:13 KJB And they first took their journey according to the commandment of the LORD by the hand of Moses.

    Numbers 15:23 KJB Even all that the LORD hath commanded you by the hand of Moses, from the day that the LORD commanded Moses, and henceforward among your generations;

    Numbers 16:40 KJB To be a memorial unto the children of Israel, that no stranger, which is not of the seed of Aaron, come near to offer incense before the LORD; that he be not as Korah, and as his company: as the LORD said to him by the hand of Moses.

    Numbers 27:23 KJB And he laid his hands upon him, and gave him a charge, as the LORD commanded by the hand of Moses.

    Numbers 36:13 KJB These are the commandments and the judgments, which the LORD commanded by the hand of Moses unto the children of Israel in the plains of Moab by Jordan near Jericho.

    Joshua 14:2 KJB By lot was their inheritance, as the LORD commanded by the hand of Moses, for the nine tribes, and for the half tribe.

    Joshua 20:2 KJB Speak to the children of Israel, saying, Appoint out for you cities of refuge, whereof I spake unto you by the hand of Moses:

    Joshua 21:2 KJB And they spake unto them at Shiloh in the land of Canaan, saying, The LORD commanded by the hand of Moses to give us cities to dwell in, with the suburbs thereof for our cattle.

    Joshua 21:8 KJB And the children of Israel gave by lot unto the Levites these cities with their suburbs, as the LORD commanded by the hand of Moses.

    Joshua 22:9 KJB And the children of Reuben and the children of Gad and the half tribe of Manasseh returned, and departed from the children of Israel out of Shiloh, which is in the land of Canaan, to go unto the country of Gilead, to the land of their possession, whereof they were possessed, according to the word of the LORD by the hand of Moses.

    Judges 3:4 KJB And they were to prove Israel by them, to know whether they would hearken unto the commandments of the LORD, which he commanded their fathers by the hand of Moses.

    1 Kings 8:53 KJB For thou didst separate them from among all the people of the earth, to be thine inheritance, as thou spakest by the hand of Moses thy servant, when thou broughtest our fathers out of Egypt, O Lord GOD.

    1 Kings 8:56 KJB Blessed be the LORD, that hath given rest unto his people Israel, according to all that he promised: there hath not failed one word of all his good promise, which he promised by the hand of Moses his servant.

    2 Chronicles 33:8 KJB Neither will I any more remove the foot of Israel from out of the land which I have appointed for your fathers; so that they will take heed to do all that I have commanded them, according to the whole law and the statutes and the ordinances by the hand of Moses.

    2 Chronicles 35:6 KJB So kill the passover, and sanctify yourselves, and prepare your brethren, that they may do according to the word of the LORD by the hand of Moses.

    Nehemiah 9:14 KJB And madest known unto them thy holy sabbath, and commandedst them precepts, statutes, and laws, by the hand of Moses thy servant:​
     
  16. The7thColporteur

    The7thColporteur Well-Known Member

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    Do you see that the "book of the Law" "of Moses", written by "Moses", given them by God to obey "all", placed outside [in the side] of the ark as a "witness against" ...

    [Deuteronomy 31:26

    Deuteronomy 31:26 KJB - Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.";
    Colossians 2:14 "handwriting of ordinances";

    Ephesians 2:15 "the law of commandments contained in ordinances";

    Hebrews 9:1 "... also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary.";

    Hebrews 9:10 "... meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances ...";

    Ezekiel 43:18 "... These are the ordinances of the altar in the day when they shall make it, to offer burnt offerings thereon, and to sprinkle blood thereon."

    Luke 1:6 "... walking in all the commandments and ordinances ...";

    Numbers 9:12 "They shall leave none of it unto the morning, nor break any bone of it: according to all the ordinances of the passover they shall keep it.";

    2 Chronicles 33:8 "... to do all that I have commanded them, according to the whole law and the statutes and the ordinances by the hand of Moses."]
    … them for their promises [Exodus 19 and Exodus 24], is not the same things as the Ten Commandments written by God Himself, placed in the ark itself.

    exaleiyaV to kaq hmwn ceirografon toiV dogmasin o hn upenantion hmin kai auto hrken ek tou mesou proshlwsaV auto tw staurw​
     
  17. The7thColporteur

    The7thColporteur Well-Known Member

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    [3] What is the definition of sin [1 John 3:4; Romans 6:23, etc] that Paul utilizes in the very context?

    Colossians 2:11 KJB In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

    Colossians 2:12 KJB Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with [him] through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

    Colossians 2:13 KJB And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses:

    See the like parallel, in Ephesians 2:

    Ephesians 2:1 KJB And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

    Ephesians 2:2 KJB Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

    Ephesians 2:3 KJB Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.​

    Colossians 2 KJB, parallels Ephesians 2 KJB, and Hebrews 9-10 KJB. The language is the same. The "ordinances" in Colossians 2 deals with "shadows", such as the daily "meat and drink" offerings of a worldly sanctuary and carnal ordinances, the seasonal "feast days", the monthly "new moons", and the year based "sabbaths", in the singular, every 7 and 50th years, as Paul is citing Psalms 98:1-3; and Ezekiel 45:17 KJB with other texts.

    The Sabbath of the LORD thy God is always called "my [as in God's] sabbaths", and the others in Leviticus 23:4 onward are called "your [the peoples] sabbaths" [Leviticus 26:35 KJB] which are "beside [given in addition to] the sabbaths of the LORD" [Leviticus 23:38 KJB]. The Ten Commandments, including the Sabbath of the 4th Commandment, are "light" [Proverbs 6:23, Isaiah 8:20, 51:4 KJB], never a "shadow", are "spiritual" [Romans 7:14 KJB], never "carnal" [Hebrews 9:10 KJB].

    Colossians 2:14 - "ordinances"
    Ephesians 2:15 - "law of commandments contained in ordinances"
    Hebrews 9:1 - "ordinances of divine service"
    Hebrews 9:10 - "carnal ordinances"

    Colossians 2:16 - "in meat, or in drink" [offerings]
    Hebrews 9:10 - "meats and drinks" [offerings]

    Colossians 2:12 - "also ye are risen with him"
    Ephesians 2:6 - "raised us up together"

    Colossians 2:16 - "a shadow of things to come"
    Ephesians 2:7 - "in the ages to come"
    Hebrews 9:11 - "of good things to come"
    Hebrews 10:1 - "the law having a shadow of good things to come", "those sacrifices", "offered year by year"​

    [ps. none of the Ten Commandments deal with carnal sacrifices]
     
  18. The7thColporteur

    The7thColporteur Well-Known Member

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    [sub Q.] Where is the word sin used here in regards to the "blotting out" in vs 14?

    It is not found at all in vs 14 and the "blotting out" does not reference the sins of vs 13, but is specifically identified in vs 14, the "handwriting of ordinances".

    The word "sins" is found in vs 11,13, but it speaks only of sins forgiven [covered], which may be demonstrated upon request is not the same thing as sins "blotted out", for it is obvious even at the first, that sins which are blotted out, need not be covered, and that which is covered, must yet be dealt with totally to be blotted out. According to Psalms 77:13 KJB, the sanctuary is a complete system of salvation/redemption, not merely a single act, but a process with multiple parts needing to be accomplished/finished, like as unto a building, laying a foundation, then building with stones, and finally the last portion. More on this in a later portion.

    Furthermore in vs 20, we see the word "ordinances" again used in connection with "worldly" human things, "the rudiments of the world" and "subject to ordinances", which are listed in vs 21-23, – 21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not; 22 Which all are to perish with the using; ) after the commandments and doctrines of men? 23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.

    What are these handwritten ordinances and where may they be found in scripture? As already noted before, these are the very "ordinances" that may be found in Ephesians 2:15 and in Hebrews 9 and in the OT itself:​

    Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, [even] the law of commandments [contained] in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, [so] making peace; Ephesians 2:15

    Then verily the first [covenant] had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary. Hebrews 9:1

    [Which stood] only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed [on them] until the time of reformation. Hebrews 9:10

    These are the carnal ordinances, even the law of commandments in ordinances, even the handwritten ordinances [by Moses] imposed upon Israel back in the books of Moses. It is not anyone ones sins here, for these "ordinances" were for the "worldly sanctuary" to do its service, and for sacrifices, etc, see also Ezekiel 43:18

    And he said unto me, Son of man, thus saith the Lord GOD; These [are] the ordinances of the altar in the day when they shall make it, to offer burnt offerings thereon, and to sprinkle blood thereon. Ezekiel 43:18

    Luke 1:6 makes mention again of these, as other passages:

    Luke 1:6 "And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless."

    Numbers 9:12 "They shall leave none of it unto the morning, nor break any bone of it: according to all the ordinances of the passover they shall keep it."

    2 Chronicles 33:8 "... take heed to do all that I have commanded them, according to the whole law and the statutes and the ordinances by the hand of Moses."​

    These refer to things, even as found in Numbers 9:3 KJB​

    Numbers 9:3 KJB In the fourteenth day of this month, at even, ye shall keep it in his appointed season: according to all the rites of it, and according to all the ceremonies thereof, shall ye keep it.​

    In fact, when looking at the context of Colossians 2, in the handwritten [by Moses] “ordinances” thereof, we read nothing of the Ten Commandments, but only of things pertaining to the earthly sanctuary and its services, in carnal things, that came afterwards under the Levitical priesthood.

    See also for further detail:


    and more, but what was against the "us"?

    Deuteronomy 31:26 KJB Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.​

    And why was it a witness against the "thee"?

    Because of their promise they had made in Exodus 19:3-9 KJB, which turned out to be faulty promises in vs 8, "All that the LORD hath spoken we will do", and thus see Hebrews 8:6-8 KJB. They broke their side of the covenant made in Exodus 19 and 24, the words Moses are written upon parchment [scroll, lambskin, etc] and sprinkled with blood.

    Their agreement, the promises "to do all...we will do" [Exodus 19 & 24; “fault with them”; Hebrews 8:8 KJB], their covenant, which they brake, was nailed to the cross. In so nullifying that "old", the 'New' [really the Everlasting] was ratified by the blood of Jesus the true sacrifice.​
     
  19. klutedavid

    klutedavid Well-Known Member

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    For fifteen hundred years the only Bible translation was the Vulgate.

    No Reformers for most of Christian history.

    The translation of the KJV relied heavily on the Vulgate. You could not attend university and study Koine Greek in the fifteenth century, Greek scholars did not exist in the fifteenth century.

    Jerome was correcting the multitude of errors that existed in the array of Biblical manuscripts that existed in the fourth century. That is why Pope Damasus the first, commissioned Jerome to clean up the mess, and compile an authentic account, hence the Vulgate.

    How do I know that this is correct?

    Your Bible translation probably uses the Masoretic version of the Old Testament. Look it up in the preface of your Bible translation.

    The apostles used the Septuagint version, of the Old Testament! The Vulgate uses the Septuagint! Modern Bible translations use the Masoretic text, the Masoretic text is not what the apostle were reading and quoting.

    You will notice this difference when you look up quotations in the New Testament, that cannot be found in the Old Testament.
     
  20. The7thColporteur

    The7thColporteur Well-Known Member

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    [4] Where does Paul get the words "... against us ... contrary to us..." from, in the context of the passages he is quoting from in the Old Testament, and what does it mean there?

    Deuteronomy 31:26 KJB - Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.

    Deuteronomy 31:28 KJB - Gather unto me all the elders of your tribes, and your officers, that I may speak these words in their ears, and call heaven and earth to record against them.

    Deuteronomy 30:19 KJB - I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, [that] I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

    Etc.​

    The Law of God, the Ten Commandments, are the Law of Life [to transgress them is to die; Romans 6:23 KJB], and not ever against the promises, but are always and ever in harmony with them, being the very foundation of His government, and in fact, each of the Ten Commandments is a promise of God, in the New Covenant, that He will fulfill in those who have faith in Him to do it, and there is not a single "curse" in the Ten Commandments, which are all promises, but the "curses" fell upon those who kept not to their covenant agreement/promises to "do all":

    Galatians 3:21 KJB Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.​
     
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