COL 2:14-17 The REAL truth from God's Word

[The7thColporteur]

...The apostles used the Septuagint version, of the Old Testament! ...

You do not know what you are talking about:

The Septuagint [LXX] as we presently know it, appears first in the writings of Origen [Hexapla] at near the end of the 2nd century AD, and the mention by the so-called "Letter of Aristeas", based on an unfounded and mostly discredited "legend", is seriously problematic.

"... Most of these fables focus on an infamous “book” 14 called the “Letter of Aristeas” 15 (hereafter called the Letter) and the alleged claims of the Letter’s documentation by authors who wrote before the first coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and in the first few centuries following His first sojourn on earth. 16 The only extant Letter is dated from the eleventh century. In addition, there is no pre-Christian Greek translation of the He-brew Old Testament text, which the Letter alleges, that has been found, in-cluding the texts among the Dead Sea Scrolls. ..." - http://www.theoldpathspublications.com/Downloads/Free/The Septuagint ebook.pdf​

"... the story of Aristeas appears comparatively rational. Yet it has long been recognized that much of it is unhistorical, in particular the professed date and nationality of the writer. Its claims to authenticity were demolished by Dr. Hody two centuries ago (De bibliorum textibus originalibus, Oxon., 1705) ..." - The Septuagint, by H. St. J. Thackeray​

De bibliorum textibus originalibus - Humfredi Hodii linguae graecae professoris regii et Archidiaconi Oxon. De bibliorum textibus originalibus, versionibus graecis, & latina vulgata libri 4..

Other sources, identifying the same - The Septuagint

"... Roman Catholics use the idea that Christ quoted the Septuagint to justly include the Apocrypha in their Bibles. ... Since no Hebrew Old Testament ever included the books of the Apocrypha, the Septuagint is the only source the Catholics have for justifying their canon. Many Reformers and Lutherans wrote at great length refuting the validity of the Septuagint. ..." - Wayback Machine​

"... [Page 46] Proponents of the invisible LXX will try to claim that Origen didn't translate the Hebrew into Greek, but only copied the LXX into the second column of his Hexapla. Can this argument be correct? No. If it were, then that would mean that those astute 72 Jewish scholars added the Apocryphal books to their work before they were ever written. (!) Or else, Origen took the liberty to add these spurious writings to God's Holy Word (Rev. 22:18). ...

... Is there ANY Greek manuscript of the Old Testament written BEFORE the time of Christ? Yes. There is one minute scrap dated at 150 BC, the Ryland's Papyrus, #458. It contains Deuteronomy chapters 23-28. No more. No less. If fact, it may be the existence of this fragment that led Eucebius and Philo to assume that the entire Pentatuech had been translated by some scribe in an effort to interest Gentiles in the history of the Jews. ... [page 46]

... [Page 47] If there was an Aristeas, he was faced with two insurmountable problems.

First, how did he ever locate the twelve tribes in order to pick his six representative scholars from each. Having been thoroughly scattered by their many defeats and captivities, the tribal lines of the 12 tribes had long since dissolved into virtual non-existence. It was impossible for anyone to distinctly identify the 12 individual tribes.

Secondly, if the 12 tribes had been identified, they would not have undertaken such a translation for two compelling reasons.

(1) Every Jew knew that the official caretaker of Scripture was the tribe of Levi as evidenced in Deuteronomy 17:18, 31:25,26 and Malachi 2:7. Thus, NO Jew of any of the eleven other tribes would dare to join such a forbidden enterprise. ..." - The Answer Book, By Sam Gipp, Page 46-47, selected portions, emphasis [bold] in original.​

 

[The7thColporteur]

[5] In verse 16 there is a list of "ordinances" that are found given in that order [and other], in the Old Testament, what are they referring to there, and where is Paul quoting from?

Colossians 2:16 KJB Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath [days]:​

Paul is quoting from (you will want to look up that word “solemnities”):

Ezekiel 45:17 KJB And it shall be the prince's part to give burnt offerings, and meat offerings, and drink offerings, in the feasts, and in the new moons, and in the sabbaths, in all solemnities of the house of Israel: he shall prepare the sin offering, and the meat offering, and the burnt offering, and the peace offerings, to make reconciliation for the house of Israel.​

 

[The7thColporteur]

[6] Is there a significance to the specific ordering that Paul utilizes of those "ordinances"?, In other words, is there a specific time frame involved for each item in the list [for ex. daily, seasonally, monthly, yearly [or of years, etc]]

There is. The order is given as:

[1] "daily" [in meat, or in drink [offerings]],
[2] "seasonally" [or in respect of an holyday; ie feast days of seasons, Spring, Fall]
[3] "monthly" [of the new moon]
[4] "annually, yearly, and 7th year and 50th Year" ["of the sabbath [days]" [plural]].​

In Colossians 2:16 KJB the word [days] was added as a help text by the translators since the word in the Greek for Sabbath [days] is a Noun Genitive Plural Neuter, being sabbatwn Strong's Concordance G4521 N-GPN. So the text is not speaking of a single sabbath, but many, and not speaking of every sabbath in scripture [KJB], because it only deals with the specific “ordinances” “hand” written by Moses. To know which sabbaths it is speaking of we must look at the immediate context [cited above].

In the [context] we see "handwriting of ordinances". These "ordinances" are not referencing the "spiritual" Ten Commandments. Rather these "handwriting of ordinances" are in reference to the "carnal ordinances" associated with the "worldly sanctuary" given under the "levitical priesthood" for "divine service". The Ten Commandments were given before there ever was a "worldly sanctuary" or "levitical priesthood" [this is not to say that the levites did not exist, it is saying that they were not yet ordained into "levitical priesthood"]. We can see this further in Ephesians and Hebrews:

Ephesians 2:15 KJB Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, [even] the law of commandments [contained] in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, [so] making peace;​

Again, not the Ten Commandments, but rather that which was commanded "in ordinances". They which were given for "divine service" in a "worldly sanctuary" which was patterned after the Heavenly and True Tabernacle which "the Lord pitched and not man".

Hebrews 9:1 KJB Then verily the first [covenant] had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary.

Hebrews 9:6 KJB Now when these things were thus ordained, the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service [of God].​

[1.] "in meat, or in drink" [offerings] [daily/continual] compare to:

Hebrews 9:10 KJB [Which stood] only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed [on them] until the time of reformation.

Hebrews 10:8 KJB Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and [offering] for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure [therein]; which are offered by the law;​

Which Law dealt with sacrifices?

The "spiritual" Ten Commandments spoken from "Heaven" dealing with the "conscience of sins"? or rather "the commandments [contained] in ordinances", those "carnal ordinances" for "divine service" and a "worldy sanctuary"?​

 

[The7thColporteur]

[2.] "or in respect of an holyday" holy [feast] day; based upon the seasons, "seasonal"]. The word in the Greek for "holyday" is εορτης and means "a feast or festival" [Strong's Concordance]. These were "seasonal".

Leviticus 23:4 KJB These are the feasts of the LORD, even holy convocations, which ye shall proclaim in their seasons.​

A list of them may be found in Leviticus 23 and elsewhere [ie, Leviticus 23:44, etc]:

Spring Feasts:

Passover: Leviticus 23:5 [Jesus dies AD 31, First Month - Abib/Nisan 14th, the 6th Day, 3 PM]

Feast of Unleavened Bread: Leviticus 23:6-8 [Jesus in the Tomb, Abib/Nisan 15th, the 7th Day]

Feast of Firstfruits [Wave Sheaf]: Leviticus 23:10-14 [Jesus resurrected, Abib/Nisan 16th, 1st day]

Pentecost [Feast of Weeks]: Leviticus 23:15-22 [Jesus, in the Holy Place, pouring of the Holy Spirit, Acts 1-3, etc Revelation 5:6, etc]​

Long Summer

Fall Feasts:

Feast Of Trumpets: Leviticus 23:24-25 [Jesus, announcing coming Judgment, about to move, the bell is heard, 1833/4, Miller goes forward, Advent movement, etc]

Day Of Atonement: Leviticus 23:27-32 [Jesus in the Most Holy Place, 1843/44, specifically Oct 22 1844, the bell is heard, Jesus and Father moved from Holy to Most Holy in Heavenly Sanctuary, see alo Revelation 9:5,6,10 - "5 months", and Revelation 9:13-15] KJB

Feast of Booths/Tabernacles/Ingathering: Leviticus 23:34-43 [Harvest, and on into Millennium and then into eternity]​

Yet, moreso specifically, we see that these “heorte” [Feast] refers to the Three Specific feasts that were in their “seasons”:

[1] the feast of Unleavened Bread,
[2] the feast of Weeks [Pentecost],
[3] the feast of Tabernacles, wherein they had to come up to Jerusalem:

Exodus 23:14 KJB - Three times thou shalt keep a feast unto me in the year.

Exodus 23:17 KJB - Three times in the year all thy males shall appear before the Lord GOD.

Deuteronomy 16:16 KJB - Three times in a year shall all thy males appear before the LORD thy God in the place which he shall choose; in the feast of unleavened bread, and in the feast of weeks, and in the feast of tabernacles: and they shall not appear before the LORD empty:

1 Kings 9:25 KJB - And three times in a year did Solomon offer burnt offerings and peace offerings upon the altar which he built unto the LORD, and he burnt incense upon the altar that [was] before the LORD. So he finished the house.

2 Chronicles 8:13 KJB - Even after a certain rate every day, offering according to the commandment of Moses, on the sabbaths, and on the new moons, and on the solemn feasts, three times in the year, [even] in the feast of unleavened bread, and in the feast of weeks, and in the feast of tabernacles.​

 

[The7thColporteur]

[3.] "or of the new moon" [monthly, based upon phases of the moon]:

Genesis 1:14 KJB And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

Genesis 1:16 KJB And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.​

See also, that there are “ordinances” of the moon, were sacrifices, blowing trumpets, etc:

Numbers 28:11 KJB And in the beginnings of your months ye shall offer a burnt offering unto the LORD; two young bullocks, and one ram, seven lambs of the first year without spot;

Numbers 28:12 KJB And three tenth deals of flour for a meat offering, mingled with oil, for one bullock; and two tenth deals of flour for a meat offering, mingled with oil, for one ram;

Numbers 28:13 KJB And a several tenth deal of flour mingled with oil for a meat offering unto one lamb; for a burnt offering of a sweet savour, a sacrifice made by fire unto the LORD.

Numbers 28:14 KJB And their drink offerings shall be half an hin of wine unto a bullock, and the third part of an hin unto a ram, and a fourth part of an hin unto a lamb: this is the burnt offering of every month throughout the months of the year.

Numbers 28:15 KJB And one kid of the goats for a sin offering unto the LORD shall be offered, beside the continual burnt offering, and his drink offering.

Jeremiah 31:35 KJB Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:

Jeremiah 31:36 KJB If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.

Jeremiah 33:25 KJB Thus saith the LORD; If my covenant be not withday and night, and if I have not appointed the ordinances of heaven and earth;

Psalms 81:3 KJB Blow up the trumpet in the new moon, in the time appointed, on our solemn feast day.

Psalms 81:4 KJB For this was a statute for Israel, and a law of the God of Jacob.

Psalms 81:5 KJB This he ordained in Joseph for a testimony, when he went out through the land of Egypt: where I heard a language that I understood not.

Ezra 3:5 KJB And afterward offered the continual burnt offering, both of the new moons, and of all the set feasts of the LORD that were consecrated, and of every one that willingly offered a freewill offering unto the LORD.

Ezekiel 45:17 KJB And it shall be the prince's part to give burnt offerings, and meat offerings, and drink offerings, in the feasts, and in the new moons, and in the sabbaths, in all solemnities of the house of Israel: he shall prepare the sin offering, and the meat offering, and the burnt offering, and the peace offerings, to make reconciliation for the house of Israel.

Ezekiel 46:6 KJB And in the day of the new moon it shall be a young bullock without blemish, and six lambs, and a ram: they shall be without blemish.​

The New Moons, were but the type of a greater antitype:

New Moon to Another:

Isaiah 66:22 KJB For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.

Isaiah 66:23 KJB And it shall come to pass, [that] from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.​

Indeed, consider:​

Ezekiel 47:12 KJB And by the river upon the bank thereof, on this side and on that side, shall grow all trees for meat, whose leaf shall not fade, neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed: it shall bring forth new fruit according to his months, because their waters they issued out of the sanctuary: and the fruit thereof shall be for meat, and the leaf thereof for medicine.

Revelation 2:7 KJB - He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Revelation 22:2 KJB - In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

Revelation 22:14 KJB - Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.​

 

[The7thColporteur]

[7] In verse 16, the verse says, "...of the sabbath [days]", which is plural in the very Greek itself, as well as English in the KJB, what "sabbath days" then is Paul referring to specifically, and how may we know?

[4.] "or of the sabbath [days]" [plural, multiple yearly sabbaths, the typological [not memorial, as Creation], shadow, yearly, 7th year and 50th years given under the levitical priesthood]​

[1] The Yearly sabbaths that came based upon the phases of the moon: Leviticus 23:4 and onward, each associated with the "worldly sanctuary" and "divine service" under the "levitical priesthood" and "carnal ordinances", all being "shadows" of "good things to come".

[2] The 7th year sabbath: Leviticus 25:2-7

Leviticus 25:2 KJB Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye come into the land which I give you, then shall the land keep a sabbath unto the LORD.

Leviticus 25:3 KJB Six years thou shalt sow thy field, and six years thou shalt prune thy vineyard, and gather in the fruit thereof;

Leviticus 25:4 KJB But in the seventh year shall be a sabbath of rest unto the land, a sabbath for the LORD: thou shalt neither sow thy field, nor prune thy vineyard.

Leviticus 25:5 KJB That which groweth of its own accord of thy harvest thou shalt not reap, neither gather the grapes of thy vine undressed: for it is a year of rest unto the land.

Leviticus 25:6 KJB And the sabbath of the land shall be meat for you; for thee, and for thy servant, and for thy maid, and for thy hired servant, and for thy stranger that sojourneth with thee,

Leviticus 25:7 KJB And for thy cattle, and for the beast that are in thy land, shall all the increase thereof be meat.​

[3] The 50th year sabbath: Leviticus 25:7-17; being ending in the Day of Atonement, called the sabbath of sabbaths.

Leviticus 25:7 KJB And for thy cattle, and for the beast that are in thy land, shall all the increase thereof be meat.

Leviticus 25:8 KJB And thou shalt number seven sabbaths of years unto thee, seven times seven years; and the space of the seven sabbaths of years shall be unto thee forty and nine years.

Leviticus 25:9 KJB Then shalt thou cause the trumpet of the jubile to sound on the tenth day of the seventh month, in the day of atonement shall ye make the trumpet sound throughout all your land.

Leviticus 25:10 KJB And ye shall hallow the fiftieth year, and proclaim liberty throughout all the land unto all the inhabitants thereof: it shall be a jubile unto you; and ye shall return every man unto his possession, and ye shall return every man unto his family.

Leviticus 25:11 KJB A jubile shall that fiftieth year be unto you: ye shall not sow, neither reap that which groweth of itself in it, nor gather the grapes in it of thy vine undressed.

Leviticus 25:12 KJB For it is the jubile; it shall be holy unto you: ye shall eat the increase thereof out of the field.

Leviticus 25:13 KJB In the year of this jubile ye shall return every man unto his possession.

Leviticus 25:14 KJB And if thou sell ought unto thy neighbour, or buyest ought of thy neighbour's hand, ye shall not oppress one another:

Leviticus 25:15 KJB According to the number of years after the jubile thou shalt buy of thy neighbour, and according unto the number of years of the fruits he shall sell unto thee:

Leviticus 25:16 KJB According to the multitude of years thou shalt increase the price thereof, and according to the fewness of years thou shalt diminish the price of it: for according to the number of the years of the fruits doth he sell unto thee.

Leviticus 25:17 KJB Ye shall not therefore oppress one another; but thou shalt fear thy God: for I am the LORD your God.​

 

[The7thColporteur]

Therefore, these things, the “ordinances” associated with these things listed were but “shadow” to be fulfilled in the ministry of Jesus Christ, not merely upon earth, upon also in Heaven.

Colossians:​

Colossians 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Colossians 2:15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

Colossians 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

Colossians 2:17 KJB Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body [is] of Christ.​

Ephesians:​

Ephesians 2:7 KJB That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

Ephesians 2:15 KJB Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

Ephesians 2:16 KJB And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
​

Hebrews:​

Hebrews 9:11 KJB But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;

Hebrews 10:1 KJB For the law having a shadow of good things to come, [and] not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.​

The section of Colossians 2:14-17, exists between Colossians 2:8 and Colossians 2:20-22:

Colossians 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

Colossians 2:20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,

Colossians 2:21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;

Colossians 2:22 Which all are to perish with the using after the commandments and doctrines of men?​

Related passages:

Matthew 15:9 KJB But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Mark 7:7 KJB Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Titus 1:14 KJB Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.​

The Ten Commandments, the spiritual [Romans 7:14 KJB] Law ever [always] point out God's perfect character, written by God Himself, with His own finger/Holy Spirit [], on Tables of Stone [now the Heart], place inside of the Ark [representing the Heart of God, even Jesus, Psalms 40:8], beneath the Mercy Seat, as God's standard of righteousness, and thus transgression [falling short of them as they are in the Life of Christ] of them is always sin.

The "ordinances", in those “carnal”, “worldly” things of “service”, handwritten in the Book of the Law, by Moses, placed in the side of the ark, as a witness against Israel, included sacrifices, offerings, blowing of trumpets, etc, which pointed out the Saviour and His ministry [earthly and Heavenly] to come because of sin, and who would save us from sin, which is transgression of His Law, as per 1 John 3:4, etc.

 

[The7thColporteur]

[8] In verse 17, what are the two contrasting words "shadow" and "body" referring to, and does the New Testament utilize this same word elsewhere, and if so, in what way? Additionally, were they of things past [iow, a memorial, a remembrance], or of future things, "...of things to come."?

God's Ten Commandments are not "shadow", they are "Light":

Proverbs 6:23 KJB For the commandment [is] a lamp; and the law [is] light; and reproofs of instruction [are] the way of life:

Isaiah 8:20 KJB To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, [it is] because [there is] no light in them.

Isaiah 51:4 KJB Hearken unto me, my people; and give ear unto me, O my nation: for a law shall proceed from me, and I will make my judgment to rest for a light of the people.​

The Fourth Commandment itself, even points to the past of a world without sin, and in the Saviour who is without sin, as a memorial [Remember, what the LORD did in the 7th Day], in both Creation and in the Salvation of Jesus Christ, and it will also be so in the New Heaven and New Earth, as the forever memorial of Christ's redemption completed, for He will have saved His people from their sin/s:

Exodus 20:8 KJB Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

Exodus 20:9 KJB Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:

Exodus 20:10 KJB - But the seventh day [is] the sabbath of the LORD thy God: [in it] thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that [is] within thy gates:

Exodus 20:11 KJB - For [in] six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them [is], and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.​

Yet, we can know that the Passover, and its sacrifices, etc, was the shadow pointing forward to the True:

1 Corinthians 5:7 KJB “... even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us ...”​

John the Baptist understood the type/reality, that Jesus [The Light of the World, the Sun of Righteousness] was the Anti-typical [fulfillment/reality, that which is the substance, casting the shadow, not the shadow itself]:

John 1:29 KJB “... Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God ..."

John 1:36 KJB “And looking upon Jesus as he walked, he saith, Behold the Lamb of God ...”​

Thus, what we have in Colossians 2:16, is a list, of [1] “daily”, [2] “seasonally” [festally, the specific times in the year, fall, spring], [3] “monthly” [12 times, average, a year] and [4] “yearly and of years”, thus an increasing order, and having nothing whatsoever to do with the “weekly” Holy 7th Day Sabbath of the LORD thy God, the Holy Commandment.

 

[klutedavid]

You do not know what you are talking about:

The Septuagint [LXX] as we presently know it, appears first in the writings of Origen [Hexapla] at near the end of the 2nd century AD, and the mention by the so-called "Letter of Aristeas", based on an unfounded and mostly discredited "legend", is seriously problematic.

"... Most of these fables focus on an infamous “book” 14 called the “Letter of Aristeas” 15 (hereafter called the Letter) and the alleged claims of the Letter’s documentation by authors who wrote before the first coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and in the first few centuries following His first sojourn on earth. 16 The only extant Letter is dated from the eleventh century. In addition, there is no pre-Christian Greek translation of the He-brew Old Testament text, which the Letter alleges, that has been found, in-cluding the texts among the Dead Sea Scrolls. ..." - http://www.theoldpathspublications.com/Downloads/Free/The Septuagint ebook.pdf​

"... the story of Aristeas appears comparatively rational. Yet it has long been recognized that much of it is unhistorical, in particular the professed date and nationality of the writer. Its claims to authenticity were demolished by Dr. Hody two centuries ago (De bibliorum textibus originalibus, Oxon., 1705) ..." - The Septuagint, by H. St. J. Thackeray​

De bibliorum textibus originalibus - Humfredi Hodii linguae graecae professoris regii et Archidiaconi Oxon. De bibliorum textibus originalibus, versionibus graecis, & latina vulgata libri 4..

Other sources, identifying the same - The Septuagint

"... Roman Catholics use the idea that Christ quoted the Septuagint to justly include the Apocrypha in their Bibles. ... Since no Hebrew Old Testament ever included the books of the Apocrypha, the Septuagint is the only source the Catholics have for justifying their canon. Many Reformers and Lutherans wrote at great length refuting the validity of the Septuagint. ..." - http://www.wcbible.org/documents/septuagint.pdf​

"... [Page 46] Proponents of the invisible LXX will try to claim that Origen didn't translate the Hebrew into Greek, but only copied the LXX into the second column of his Hexapla. Can this argument be correct? No. If it were, then that would mean that those astute 72 Jewish scholars added the Apocryphal books to their work before they were ever written. (!) Or else, Origen took the liberty to add these spurious writings to God's Holy Word (Rev. 22:18). ...

... Is there ANY Greek manuscript of the Old Testament written BEFORE the time of Christ? Yes. There is one minute scrap dated at 150 BC, the Ryland's Papyrus, #458. It contains Deuteronomy chapters 23-28. No more. No less. If fact, it may be the existence of this fragment that led Eucebius and Philo to assume that the entire Pentatuech had been translated by some scribe in an effort to interest Gentiles in the history of the Jews. ... [page 46]

... [Page 47] If there was an Aristeas, he was faced with two insurmountable problems.

First, how did he ever locate the twelve tribes in order to pick his six representative scholars from each. Having been thoroughly scattered by their many defeats and captivities, the tribal lines of the 12 tribes had long since dissolved into virtual non-existence. It was impossible for anyone to distinctly identify the 12 individual tribes.

Secondly, if the 12 tribes had been identified, they would not have undertaken such a translation for two compelling reasons.

(1) Every Jew knew that the official caretaker of Scripture was the tribe of Levi as evidenced in Deuteronomy 17:18, 31:25,26 and Malachi 2:7. Thus, NO Jew of any of the eleven other tribes would dare to join such a forbidden enterprise. ..." - The Answer Book, By Sam Gipp, Page 46-47, selected portions, emphasis [bold] in original.​

We are not discussing the Pentateuch, we are discussing the Septuagint. The Septuagint was the first translation into Greek of the Hebrew Old Testament

The Significance of the Septuagint

The significance of the Septuagint translation can hardly be overestimated. Following the conquests of Alexander the Great (336-323 BC), Greek became the official language of Egypt, Syria and the eastern end of the Mediterranean Sea. The Septuagint translation made the Hebrew scriptures available both to the Jews who no longer spoke their ancestral language and to the entire Greek-speaking world. The Septuagint was later to become the Bible of the Greek-speaking early Church, and is frequently quoted in the New Testament.
(biblearchaeology.org)

 

[The7thColporteur]

Now looking at Point 4 again:

[4] Where does Paul get the words "... against us ... contrary to us..." from, in the context of the passages he is quoting from in the Old Testament, and what does it mean there?

Deuteronomy 31:26 KJB - Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.

Deuteronomy 31:28 KJB - Gather unto me all the elders of your tribes, and your officers, that I may speak these words in their ears, and call heaven and earth to record against them.

Deuteronomy 30:19 KJB - I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, [that] I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Etc.​

The Law of God, the Ten Commandments, are the Law of Life [to transgress them is to die; Romans 6:23 KJB], and not ever against the promises, but are always and ever in harmony with them, being the very foundation of His government, and in fact, each of the Ten Commandments is a promise of God, in the New Covenant, that He will fulfill in those who have faith in Him to do it, and there is not a single "curse" in the Ten Commandments, which are all promises, but the "curses" fell upon those who kept not to their covenant agreement/promises to "do all":

Galatians 3:21 KJB Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.​

Notice the word "curse" in association with the book, and the failure to keep their promsies as made in Exodus 19:8 KJB.

Galatians 3:13 KJB - Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
​

There are no curses in the Ten Commandments, but there are in the book, see Deuteronomy, etc. Why, what did Jesus do?

Daniel 9:27 KJB - And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
​

Which is exactly what Hebrews says in regards the carnal [not spiritual; Romans 7:14 KJB] "ordinances":

Hebrews 9:10 KJB - Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.​

 

[The7thColporteur]

We are not discussing the Pentateuch, we are discussing the Septuagint. The Septuagint was the first translation into Greek of the Hebrew Old Testament...

It's like you didn't read a single thing posted. Your source also gives no evidence [just apriori], as I did for mine.

 

[Marco70]

He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant – not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.


7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, transitory though it was, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9 If the ministry that brought condemnation was glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness
2cor3:6-9

The above of course refers to the TC, for as we know, they were the only law written on stone. Paul spends much time in rom ch7 recalling his time as a Pharisee when he was sold under sin concerning them, for at that point, he lived under the law

 

[klutedavid]

It's like you didn't read a single thing posted. Your source also gives no evidence [just apriori], as I did for mine.

I did read one of the links, some of the other links did not work.

The link I read was discussing the Pentateuch and not the Septuagint.

You probably were cutting and pasting from a text book.

May I ask whether you have read your own links?

 

[klutedavid]

It's like you didn't read a single thing posted. Your source also gives no evidence [just apriori], as I did for mine.

The Masoretic text did not exist until a thousand years after the Christ. As I said before, the apostles were quoting from the Septuagint and so was everyone else for centuries in the early church.

 

[The7thColporteur]

He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant – not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, transitory though it was, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9 If the ministry that brought condemnation was glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness 2cor3:6-9

The above of course refers to the TC, for as we know, they were the only law written on stone. Paul spends much time in rom ch7 recalling his time as a Pharisee when he was sold under sin concerning them, for at that point, he lived under the law concerning them

There are two glories and two ministrations, but only 1 Law in 2 Corinthians 3:

[1] the glory of that Law that shone from Moses face, types and shadows through a veil

[2] the glory of that Law that shines in Jesus' face, reality and body, unveiled, revealed, manifested and exceeds because it is no longer mere theory on stone, but demonstration in Life
​

[1] ministration of the Law on two tables of stone, external

[2] ministration of the Law on two tables flesh [the brain has two hemispheres], looking at the frontal lobe straight on where God writes the Ten Commandments, the Law of Love, looks like to arches of tables], internal​

and therefore you misread which glory was done away and what "remaineth" [2 Corinthians 3:11 KJB]. The Ten Commandments are not gone, but the "ministration" of them changed, from stone external mere letter to fleshy internal spirit which always fulfills the letter. The glory spoken of is given in masculine, and does not refer back to other glory given in neuter.

2 Corinthians 3:7 KJB - But if the ministration of death, written [and] engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which [glory] was to be done away:​

What was the "glory" that was to be done away? That which shone in Moses' face. Which glory then remains and is now administered in a more glorious way? The glory of the Law as it is in Christ Jesus.

Why? For a greater glory than the glory of Moses face, which was merely reflection of the Glory of God from the Law written in Stone, was to be seen directly in the face of Jesus Christ, God's glory and His Law directly seen in the Life lived perfectly, the Law as it is to be in the heart, from love to God, Divinity clothed in humanity, the likeness of sinful flesh, the same flesh we have, victorious over all temptation, condemned sin in the flesh...

2 Corinthians 4:6 KJB - For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to [give] the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.​

Of course the "letter" kills, because if the Spirit is not present, it cannot be fulfilled, because it is a spiritual law [Romans 7:14 KJB]. Mankind, without Christ Jesus is dead in tresspasses and in sins.

However, with/through the Holy Spirit, the Law of God can be obeyed in every aspect of it.

 

[The7thColporteur]

I did read one of the links, some of the other links did not work...

They all work except the one, which may be found in the Wayback Machine. I cannot be responsible for broken links, that's on their end. However, I updated it with the Wayback archive. And as such is no excuse.

 

[Marco70]

There are two glories and two ministrations, but only 1 Law in 2 Corinthians 3:

[1] the glory of that Law that shone from Moses face, types and shadows through a veil

[2] the glory of that Law that shines in Jesus' face, reality and body, unveiled, revealed, manifested and exceeds because it is no longer mere theory on stone, but demonstration in Life
​

[1] ministration of the Law on two tables of stone, external

[2] ministration of the Law on two tables flesh [the brain has two hemispheres], looking at the frontal lobe straight on where God writes the Ten Commandments, the Law of Love, looks like to arches of tables], internal​

and therefore you misread which glory was done away and what "remaineth" [2 Corinthians 3:11 KJB]. The Ten Commandments are not gone, but the "ministration" of them changed, from stone external mere letter to fleshy internal spirit which always fulfills the letter. The glory spoken of is given in masculine, and does not refer back to other glory given in neuter.

2 Corinthians 3:7 KJB - But if the ministration of death, written [and] engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which [glory] was to be done away:​

What was the "glory" that was to be done away? That which shone in Moses' face. Which glory then remains and is now administered in a more glorious way? The glory of the Law as it is in Christ Jesus.

Why? For a greater glory than the glory of Moses face, which was merely reflection of the Glory of God from the Law written in Stone, was to be seen directly in the face of Jesus Christ, God's glory and His Law directly seen in the Life lived perfectly, the Law as it is to be in the heart, from love to God, Divinity clothed in humanity, the likeness of sinful flesh, the same flesh we have, victorious over all temptation, condemned sin in the flesh...

2 Corinthians 4:6 KJB - For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to [give] the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.​

Of course the "letter" kills, becuase if the Spirit is not present, it cannot be fulfilled, becuase it is a spiritual law. Mankind, without Christ Jesus is dead in tresspasses and in sins.

However, with/through the Holy Spirit, the Law of God can be obeyed in every aspect of it.

Its tragic that people can spend so much time studying, and quoting the letter inside out without understanding the message the letter contains

 

[The7thColporteur]

Its tragic that people can spend so much time studying, and quoting the letter inside out without understanding the message the letter contains

That's not an actual rebuttal to what is documented, it is simply dodging. Wasted space. If this is all your are going to say [repeatedly], we can move on.

 

[Marco70]

However, ;lets give some credit where credit is due. There is a vast difference between the law written on tablets of stone(an external law) and a law written on the minds and placed on the heart of the believer(an internal law). Absolutely. For, as the law is written on the mind and placed on the heart, the believers sins and lawless deeds will be remembered no more.
Of course, you have to believe that. If you insist your sins and lawless deeds will be remembered, you have no new covenant

 

[The7thColporteur]

Additionally, 2 Corinthians 3, is not helping any one of you with that which has been shown you in regards Colossians 2; Ephesians 2 and Hebrews 9-10 and their perfect parallelism, nor does it address what has been shown to you of Paul citing Psalms 98:1-3 and Ezekiel 45:17 KJB, therein.