Co-Redeemer?

[artnalex]

In fact, Pope Joh Paul II had often spoken about it. I'll try to find his writing, ...

[font=Arial,Geneva,sans-serif](Insegnamenti di Giovanni Paolo II, I , V/3 (1982) 404)[/font]

 

[thereselittleflower]

What do you mean, "huh"? The dogma of Mary as co-redemptrix was rejected by the Vatican in the past because of serious theological difficulties. There were even bishops who suggested the dogma during the Second Vatican Council, but it was shot down.

It is not dogma.

~cleopa

Please cite.

I am sorry, but you have been grossly misinformed.

The 2nd Vatican Council never rejected this doctrine of our faith . . . and doctrine it is, even if not yet dogma . .

They simply choose not to procede at that time with moving forward in defining it dogmatically . . . that's all . .

No rejection whatsoever.



John Paul pray for us

 

[D'Ann]

Please cite.

I am sorry, but you have been grossly misinformed.

The 2nd Vatican Council never rejected this doctrine of our faith . . . and doctrine it is, even if not yet dogma . .

They simply choose not to procede at that time with moving forward in defining it dogmatically . . . that's all . .

No rejection whatsoever.



John Paul pray for us

Amen... JP II always prayed to Mary and he encouraged Catholics to pray to Mary, the Mother of God... and Doctrine of Mary has not been rejected and never shall be. Eventually, it will become Dogma too... IMHO.

God's Peace,

D'Ann

 

[artnalex]

The dogma of Mary as co-redemptrix was rejected by the Vatican in the past because of serious theological difficulties.

VII was not designed to be a dogmatic council, but a pastoral one. Hence the setting was not appropriate for dogmatic declarations.

Here is a snippet:

"This sacred synod...does not, however, intend to give a complete doctrine on Mary, nor does it wish to decide those questions which the work of theologians has not yet fully clarified" (Lumen Gentium, n. 52).

​

Did you know that a petition for the solemn definition of the Assumption of Mary was raised and rejected at Vatican Council I, but this did not prevent the later solemn definition of the Assumption by Pius XII in an ex cathedra expression.


The fact that PJII used the term "co-redemptrix" various times leads us to believe that this term is already acknowledged and believed.

 

[thereselittleflower]

Hi guys I am learning some things here, but I never read anything in the bible about this: can you explain please.thanks Kim

"The more the Holy Ghost finds Mary, His dear
and inseparable spouse, in any soul, the more
active and mighty He becomes in producing Jesus
Christ in that soul, and that soul in Jesus Christ"
-Saint Louis De Monfort

hi Kim

Spouse of the Holy Spirit is an ancient Marian title . . to really get into this might take a while, for it goes deep into the Catholic perspective of who Mary is in relationship to God and the Church.

Here is a fairly good start:

Mary is the Spouse of the Holy Spirit.
Gabriel proclaimed that the Holy Spirit would come over her and the power of the Most High would overshadow her (Lk 1:35). This is the language of marital love (see Ruth 3:9; Zeph 3:17). Mary was united with the third person of the Trinity in order to give flesh to the second person. As the spouse of the Holy Spirit, she gave her body to the service of God so that she might receive the fullness of God. And so Mary is a sign of how we too must seek to be filled with the Holy Spirit to do the will of God (cf Eph 5:18). It is the Holy Spirit who brings Jesus Christ today just as He brought the divine Christ to the womb of Mary (cf. Jn 14:17,18). When we are filled with the Spirit as Mary was, we are united to Jesus and we become more united with one another. Mary’s union with the Holy Spirit brought us the Son who poured out the Spirit that we might be united with both Son and Spirit. Her union brings about our union.

http://www.chnetwork.org/journals/mary/mary_7.htm


​

Does this help?


John Paul pray for us

 

[HisKid1973]

Hi TLF..I"m guessing your name is Therese. I guess the word Marian is a new to me too. We protestant (I dont even like titles I,m not protesting anything, just proclaiming Jesus is my Lord and Saviour)never really put Mary in any position, not that we don't both agree that Jesus was born of a virgin. I just see the trinity as Father ,Son and the Holy Spirit.. You know I just learned something right before I posted this back I the OBOB. I was pmming a OBOB forum member about the niceen creed and there was a post about the word "catholic" meaning meaning universal. So the true believers in Christ are His Body or the universal or "catholic " church..You know when I think about it heaven will filled with true believers from every tongue,tribe and nation. You know there are people in all churches that I call pew sitters that are there for the ride, never accepting Christ as their Saviour. You don't see the fruit's that come from abideing In Christ evident in what they say or how they live.We become a new creature in Christ old things past away as we are born anew. You know if all the true believers in Christ could just come together agreeing on the core issues of salvation and the spreading of His Gospel, the world would be affected for the Kingdom of God.. Thank you Sis for taking time to explain .You know we still are all seing thru the glass darkly, till we see Him face to face.No one really sees it perfect yet.. Thank God for His Redeeming, soul cleansing work of redemption..YBIC..Kim

 

[artnalex]

I just see the trinity as Father ,Son and the Holy Spirit.

So do Catholics. We DO NOT believe that Mary is part of the Trinity. She is purely human.

I was pmming a OBOB forum member about the niceen creed and there was a post about the word "catholic" meaning meaning universal.

The use of the word "catholic" in early church days referred to the encompassing church, as there were no other Christians religions around back then, just Catholic.

It is funny that you mention the "creed" as it specifically states that we believe and profess faith in the "communion of saints", yet certain denominations have difficulty with believing such as statement. I'm not saying that you do, just that some do.

 

[asjs1206]

I think what is most important here is that we can agree to disagree-I think the whole issue of mary as a co-redeemer is an issue that even catholics cannot agree on. I am not here to judge anyone at all, and I hope that I never gave that impression to anyone.

 

[Dream]

Religion isn't a matter of agreement, it's a matter of Truth.

 

[cleopa_of_emmaus]

Catholics do not agree on Mary as Co-Redemptrix.

~cleopa

 

[Paul S]

Catholics do not agree on Mary as Co-Redemptrix.

It's a doctrine of the Church. They should agree.

 

[thereselittleflower]

Catholics do not agree on Mary as Co-Redemptrix.

~cleopa

Those who reject the doctrine that Mary is Co-Redemptrix put themselves in opposition to The Church Herself.

It is not an elective doctrine . . . no doctrine is . . . . .


Whether individual Catholics agree or not is immaterial to the fact that this IS a doctrine of the Church and is to be assented to.


John Paul pray for us

 

[cleopa_of_emmaus]

I went to the EWTN FAQ, and found this answer regarding the doctrine of Mary as co-redemptrix:

Concerning the movement to have Mary dogmatically proclaimed "co-redemptrix and mediatrix of all graces," Eastern Christians in general are not very enthusiastic about it.


Eastern Christian theology is "apophatic," which means that we greatly value mystery - and define as little as possible. In our tradition a truth is only dogmatically defined if it is absolutely necessary to do so. If there isn't a pressing need to define a dogma, we prefer to leave things well enough alone.

Also, we only speak of Mary in relation to Christ. The titles "co-redemptrix and mediatrix of all graces," in as much as they appear to refer to Mary herself, are somewhat distasteful to many Eastern Christians. We prefer titles that clearly present Mary's relationship to her son, such as Theotokos (God Bearer).

This having been said, these titles when understood correctly are theologically sound, although "co-redemptrix" can be easily misunderstood. But just because a title is doctrinally sound does not mean it is necessary to elevate it to the level of dogma. Faithful Catholics are free to disagree on the merits of such a dogmatic definition. Personally, I believe that no title is more fitting and glorious for Our Lady than Theotokos. Almost all of the Eastern Catholics that I know feel this way. What honor could possibly be greater than being the Mother of God?

******

So I was incorrect in thinking "Co-mediatrix" is not theologically sound. But I was right that Catholics can disagree as to whether it needs to be defined as a dogma.


Forgive me....


~cleopa (sinner extraordinaire)

 

[cleopa_of_emmaus]

....and I still don't think it should be dogma.

~cleopa

 

[Paul S]

....and I still don't think it should be dogma.

Both doctrine and dogma must be believed.

 

[WarriorAngel]

Mary is co redemtrix, because without her role, we would have not been able to have Jesus.

Hence Christ could not have lived nor died for us.

Be thankful she accepted the Will of God.
Peace!

 

[cleopa_of_emmaus]

Both doctrine and dogma must be believed.

Correct, and I still don't believe it should be declared a dogma.

~cleopa

 

[WarriorAngel]

http://religion-cults.com/mary/coredeemer.htm

Well, the thing about the Pope's role is, he is infallible to the teachings and dogma...whether anyone agrees, the Pope's have the Authority, because they are the leaders.
Plus they are theologically astute. MOST dogma's have been written about in the times of the Apostles, and maintained through Tradition.

These three titles of Virgin Mary are inter-related and deeply rooted both in devotion and doctrine in the Catholic Church, and indeed in most of Christianity.
The Maternal Mediation of Mary is under its three essential aspects of Co-Redeemer ("the Mother Suffering"), Mediator("the Mother Nourishing"), and Advocate ("the Mother Interceding")... so, these three dogmas are interrelated and may be it is only one, because the roles of a mother, as heart of the family, are multiform but the truth of her motherhood is singular, only one!.

 

[cleopa_of_emmaus]

Thanks for the link!!!

~cleopa

 

[cleopa_of_emmaus]

I will need to think about this for a while. I did enjoy this discussion.

~cleopa