Co-Redeemer?

[thereselittleflower]

I'd translate it as "co-redemptrix". But then, I use words like "actress" and "chairwoman" instead of being politically correct.

The meaning's exactly the same, but it more clearly indicates the gender of the person. And Mary's femininity is a major part of Marian doctrine.

I agree.


No. What objections do you have to it?[/QUOTE]

Actualy, mediatrix of all graces is doctrine . . it not yet dogma . .

I used to have a problem with it, but decided to put it on the shelf till I understood it, and now I have no problem with it.

It can be understood on several levels. The most basic level is in regards to Christ and the fullness of the Godhead dwelling within Christ. This means ALL GRACE was dwelling in Mary's womb . . imagine this.

Mary is the person through whom ALL GRACES have come into the world.

Just because Jesus is the One Mediator of the Covenant, that does not mean that no one else can be a mediator in another capacity. All intercessors are mediators before God's throne . . there are different types of mediators.

Mary, being the Mediatrix of all graces is a mediator between God and man in a different capacity . . She does not mediate the One Covenant. Her title, Mediatrix of All Graces is a Christological title. It speaks of her mediating role in agreeing to become the Mother of God. She mediated, by her very life, the God-Man's entrance into our world.

She, who is Full of Grace, became the mediatrix of all Graces when God entered into her womb and became man.


Just on this level she deserves the title Mediatrix of All Graces.



John Paul pray for us!

 

[thereselittleflower]

It's not an officially defined doctrine, so you may choose to believe it or not.

Any doctrine is to be believed . . it is not dogma, so is not necessary to hold to it with the highest assent of faith . . . But it is still to be held to.



John Paul pray for us!

 

[Paul S]

Any doctrine is to be believed . . it is not dogma, so is not necessary to hold to it with the highest assent of faith . . . But it is still to be held to.

I don't think "mediatrix of all graces" is even doctrine, but more like theological opinion, like Limbo.

Are there any official documents on this?

 

[Letalis]

It's not an officially defined doctrine, so you may choose to believe it or not.

Well, I must say that's a relief.

 

[PolskiKrol]

People often use the words "Redemption" and "Salvation" interchangably, redemtion is what Jesus did for us on the cross, salvation is the ongoing process of redemtion applied to our lives. (and deaths). We all participate in salvation. Jesus is the only redeemer.

 

[marciadietrich]

It's not an officially defined doctrine, so you may choose to believe it or not.

Hey! Wait a minute ... I was told (another forum before converting) that it doesn't matter if it (Mary as mediatrix) was defined doctrine or not, that it was a constant teaching and it is also in the current Catechism and I had to assent to it. That it was not optional. My way of understanding might be optional, but the teaching is there and to be accepted.

As far as I know, it is on par with the prohibition on birth control in terms of teaching on the level of the certainty.

Marcia

 

[thereselittleflower]

I don't think "mediatrix of all graces" is even doctrine, but more like theological opinion, like Limbo.

Are there any official documents on this?

Hi Paul

Actually, the Catechism calls her Mediatrix and formally recognizes this as one of her titles.:

CCC 969 "The motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uniterruptedly fromthe consent which sheloyally gave at the Annuciation and which she sustained without waivering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us to the gifts of eternal salvation . . .Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix."

LG 62
​

Most definately Mary as Mediatrix is a doctrine of the Church.





John Paul pray for us!

 

[thereselittleflower]

Hey! Wait a minute ... I was told (another forum before converting) that it doesn't matter if it (Mary as mediatrix) was defined doctrine or not, that it was a constant teaching and it is also in the current Catechism and I had to assent to it. That it was not optional. My way of understanding might be optional, but the teaching is there and to be accepted.

As far as I know, it is on par with the prohibition on birth control in terms of teaching on the level of the certainty.

Marcia

Marcia you are right.

Cathoalic Tradition frequently refers to Our Lady as being the "channel," "aquaduct," or "treasurer" of Divine grace. These are, of course, metaphors and hence not to be understood in a literal sense, as if Mary were the physical instrument of grace. She isn't. The manner in which she exercises her role is, specifically, by way of intercession. It is not necessary that we explicitly implore her intercession in our prayers. But whether we mention her or not, it is through her that we receive whatever we receive. Since she is our loving Mother in the supernatural realm, she knows our needs and wishes to help us in all of these; and since she is the Mother of God, her prayer on our behalf cannot but be most powerful and efficacious.

Papal documents have frequently portrayed Mary as Mediatrix of all graces. Worthy of specific mention is the trenchant statement of Leo XIII in his Encyclical Octobri Memse (On the Rosary, Sept 22, 1891)

"It may be affirmed with truth and precision that, by the will of God, absolutely no part of that immense treasure of every grace that the Lord amasses . . is bestowed on us except through Mary."
​

The 2nd Vatican Council adopted the text quoted in CCC 969 above.

The council went on to say:

The unique mediation of the Redeemer does not exclude but rather gives rise among creature to a manifold cooperation that is but a sharing in this unique source

LG 62
​

We also have the Office and Mass of Mary Mediatrix of All Graces, composed at the initiative of Cardinal D. J. Mercier, approved by Beneict XV in 1921, and originally celebrated by numerous dioceses and Religious Orders on May 31.

​

Quotes are from The Dictionary of Mary, 1997 Mediatrix pgs 320-322



John Paul pray for us!

 

[Paul S]

I'll certainly agree that it's doctrine that Mary is a mediatrix. We are all mediators and mediatrices, since we all co-operate in bringing God's grace to the world. But do all graces flow through Mary?

Octobri Mense says that, but is that the official teaching or is it Pope Leo's opinion? I do know it hasn't been defined like the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption.

I don't have any problems with the doctrine - I've just always heard that it's still optional. But if this has always been the teaching of the Church, then, like Humanae Vitae or Ordinatio Sacerdotalis, we must assent to it.

 

[Rising_Suns]

I'll certainly agree that it's doctrine that Mary is a mediatrix. We are all mediators and mediatrices, since we all co-operate in bringing God's grace to the world. But do all graces flow through Mary?

But Mary is not like us in that sense. We may be mediators of our own salvation, but Mary is the mediatrix of the salvation of mankind. There is a very big difference.

Whether she is a channel of all of God's graces, I do not know. But as the CCC says, "she continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation"; she is certainly a most powerful channel of grace, more so than all the angels and saints in heaven. She is queen of heaven and spouse of the Holy Spirit.

Turn to us, most gracious Advocate,

-Davide

 

[Paul S]

But Mary is not like us in that sense. We may be mediators of our own salvation, but Mary is the mediatrix of the salvation of mankind. There is a very big difference.

Are we not also mediators when we pray for one another? And Mary does that, too, but in a much bigger way than we ever could.

As I said, I don't disagree with the doctrine. I've just never heard that it's an official teaching.

 

[thereselittleflower]

I'll certainly agree that it's doctrine that Mary is a mediatrix. We are all mediators and mediatrices, since we all co-operate in bringing God's grace to the world. But do all graces flow through Mary?

Octobri Mense says that, but is that the official teaching or is it Pope Leo's opinion? I do know it hasn't been defined like the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption.

I don't have any problems with the doctrine - I've just always heard that it's still optional. But if this has always been the teaching of the Church, then, like Humanae Vitae or Ordinatio Sacerdotalis, we must assent to it.

Of course, doctrines are not optional, even if they have not yet been well defined or made dogmatic. I believe religious assent is the minimal level required, but don't hold me to that

Her role as Mediatrix of all graces was implicit in the Church Fathers, and explicity stated by the 12th century that I am aware of. St. Bernard of Clarivaux (d 1153) said "God has willed that we should have nothing that did not pass through the hands of Mary." Saint Bernardine of Siena (d 1444), Fransiscan, said "I do not hestitate to say that she has received a certain jurisdiction over all graces . . They are administered through her hands to whom she pleases, when she pleases, as she pleases, and as much as she pleases." (quotes from Dictionary of Mary, Mediatrix,, pg 322)


Lumen Gentium of course is a towering document reflecting the doctrines of the Church.



Here is something I discovered in scripture recently . . it started with something I read by the Last Eastern Father, St John the Damascene. I would have to find the poem/hymn he wrote about her conception to give you the full sense of what was being said, but in it he referred to Mary as a tree by living waters, the tree of life.

Things started to come together in my understanding . . Jesus is the fruit of Mary, of her womb . .. Mary the Tree of Life has given us her fruit the God-Man; God, through Mary has done this, . this even ties into the Eucharist. But here, I began to see the connection between Mary and the Tree of Life.

The Early Church referred to Mary as the Tree of Life . . .this is very interesting and significant I believe.

The following list of titles of Mary drawn exclusively from the
patristic writing compiled by Sister Marie Stephen O.P. of Rosary
College from "The Blessed Virgin in the Fathers of the First Six
Centuries", by Fr. Thomas Linius, C.SS.R., published by Burns and
Oates in 1893.

Most holy paradise of Eden. Tree of good foliage. Tree of
Life. Earth unsown. Cloud raining upon the earth. Burning bush
unconsumed. Open Meadow. Blossoming rod of Aaron. Fruitful olive
tree. Tree of the Father. Flower of the field. Lily of the
valley. Spotless lily that brought forth Christ the unfading rose.
Garden enclosed. Garden fertile though untilled. Vine fruitful with
grapes. Vine bringing forth a pleasant odor. Rod that blossomed
forth Christ as the flower. Mead of sweet savor. Unleavened meal
banishing from food the bitterness of death. Root of the loveliest
Flower that blooms. Flower unfading. Garden of the Father. Root of
all good things. Vine bearing beautiful grapes.

http://www.mgardens.org/BibLit-Symb-QM.html

​

These are some of the implicit references to Mary's role as Mediatrix of all graces . . I bolded several above which are very interesting in this regard. Cloud raining upon the earth is the very picture of Mary being the Mediatrix of all graces, including being the Dispensrix of all graces as well. Root of all good things being another. But right now I am focusing on the title Tree of Life.

The Tree of Life disappears at the beginning of the world, with the fall of Adam, and does not make an appearance, by name, until Revelation.

Now, jump to Revelation. At the end of this book, John describes a scene where he sees the throne of God and of the Lamb, and from their throne flows a River . . and in the midst of the river and on either side is the Tree of Life .

Rev 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

Rev 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

​

Follow with me here for a little . . . Many of the Fathers have seen in this passage a reference to the Trinity God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit . .the latter being symbolically represented by the River of Living Water proceeding from the Father and the Son (our filioque in scripture ). Look what is in the midst and on either side of the River . .. The Tree of Life . . .

It is not at all a stretch of the imagnation to see The Tree of Life here symbolically representing Mary, being planted in and on either side of this Rive of Life. . . And look at what flows through Mary? The River of Life, the River of Water of Life symbolically representing the Holy Spirit. And this tree bears fruit and the leaves are for the healing of nations. I can easily see Mary, Mediatrix of all graces bieng portrayed here in scripture.

These treasures in scripture are so wonderful . .. What I find about Mary in scripture is that where she is found, the scriptures uses very few words, but the words used are so full of meaning . . I don't know if we can plumb their depths.


John Paul pray for us!

 

[cleopa_of_emmaus]

Where in the catechism does it define Mary as co-redemptrix? It looks like 494 says something along those lines. Is it anywhere else?

~cleopa

 

[thereselittleflower]

Where in the catechism does it define Mary as co-redemptrix? It looks like 494 says something along those lines. Is it anywhere else?

~cleopa

Her role as Co-Redemtrix ties in with her role as Mediatrix in the sense that "together with Christ and under Him, she cooperated in the reconcilliation of God and humankind while she was still on earth. " Dictionary of Mary, Mediatrix pg 319

Yes, 494 is very much a portion of the CCC that addressses this as well as CCC 968-970.



As the CCC quotes Irenaeus at 494:

"Being obedient she became the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race."


"The knot of Eve's disobedience was untied by Mary's obedience; what the virgin Eve bound through her disbelief, Mary loosened by her faith." . . . .

​

John Paul pray for us

​

 

[Miss Shelby]

As I said, I don't disagree with the doctrine. I've just never heard that it's an official teaching.

It's my understanding that it's not an ex cathedra teaching, but that it is a tenet of the faith. It could be declared ex cathedra, it just hasn't been. If I understand it right.

I don't think I like the idea of it being pronounced that way, because it's just going to cause more confusion where Protestants and I guess even the Orthodox are concerned, though.

Michelle

 

[plainswolf]

Mediatrix of all grace is quite a beautifl, natural, and easy dotrine to comprehend.. When I read Saint Louis de Monfort's in "True Devotion to Mary" The opening words were "It was through the most Holy Virgin that Jesus Christ entered into the world.." That immdiately summed it up right there. Upon reading those first words it became immediately clear, it made perfect sense. What a beautiful and sublime doctrine it is! Thanks for all the info TLF!

J.M.J.
Mark

 

[Shane Roach]

Saint Bernardine of Siena (d 1444), Fransiscan, said "I do not hestitate to say that she has received a certain jurisdiction over all graces . . They are administered through her hands to whom she pleases, when she pleases, as she pleases, and as much as she pleases." (quotes from Dictionary of Mary, Mediatrix,, pg 322)


I think it is quotes like this that make a protestant tend to want to run screaming to the hills. I cannot imagine Mary, or any other faithfull follower of Christ, taking control over that which God foreknew and predestined since before the foundation of the earth (Rom 8:29).


I do not believe God takes counsel with Mary before deciding where or how or to what degree to bestow His blessings. I'm not sure if this is what this teaching is trying to imply, or if I even understand the quote I just sampled from a post above, but it's the sort of thing that continues to keep me at a distance, however respectful, from the Catholic church. I get woderfull explanations of Catholicism here and certainly I have learned to accept a lot that I used to not, but this sort of thing is pretty hard core and strikes so very close to the heart of my understanding of God Himself.


Hoping someone can clear that up a little... Hope this does not come across as 'debating'. Also hope my 'question' is understood. I can't seem to formulate it as one single question, but as a lack of understanding of how parts of what have been posted on this thread can be reconciled with this. On the one hand, Mary is not considered co-equal with Christ, yet here is a quote that describes her operation as co-equal with Christ in more or less a step by step manner, thus undoing all the previous claims that this is not what the doctrine means...

 

[bigsierra]

Hope this does not come across as 'debating'.

It didn't come across that way at all. I'm curious about her quote too.

One thing that is sure, is that Mary cannot be put on the same level with God. She's not, even if statements may make it sound like she is. I actually get become more uncomfortable with some of the Eastern terminology, like "Mary save us". I know what they mean, it's just that when first heard with my protestant background, I have to reanalyse a little. Then I think, "oh yeah".

 

[Carrye]

Saint Bernardine of Siena (d 1444), Fransiscan, said "I do not hestitate to say that she has received a certain jurisdiction over all graces . . They are administered through her hands to whom she pleases, when she pleases, as she pleases, and as much as she pleases." (quotes from Dictionary of Mary, Mediatrix,, pg 322)

First, you should understand that Mary as Mediatrix is not (yet?) Catholic dogma. And so at least right now, it is something that a Catholic can choose to (or not to) ascent to.

I cannot imagine Mary, or any other faithfull follower of Christ, taking control over that which God foreknew and predestined since before the foundation of the earth (Rom 8:29).

The bolded part is problematic. No one takes anything from God. God gives, we receive. That would be true in Mary's case as well. If God ordained that Mary would be the mediatrix of all graces, it would be God's will, and not anything Mary took.

Tangent: We say that we receive Communion, we don't take it. The language is important to what we believe. The Eucharist is a great gift of God, a gift of His very self, and so that is not something we can take; we can only receive it. Similarly, Mary would not take anything, she could only receive that ability directly from God.

I do not believe God takes counsel with Mary before deciding where or how or to what degree to bestow His blessings

What if it wasn't counsel that He was seeking? What if Mary cooperated with His Divine Will?

On the one hand, Mary is not considered co-equal with Christ, yet here is a quote that describes her operation as co-equal with Christ in more or less a step by step manner, thus undoing all the previous claims that this is not what the doctrine means...

Remember that one quote from one Saint, while worthy of a look, does not encompass the entirety of Catholic teaching. The Church's teaching is really bigger and more complicated than that.

 

[plainswolf]

I do not believe God takes counsel with Mary before deciding where or how or to what degree to bestow His blessings.

Hoping someone can clear that up a little... Hope this does not come across as 'debating'. [/QUOTE]

It doesn't have anything to do with God having to take counsel with Mary, but rather with the fact the she was and is a living example of complete fidelity to the will of God. She united her will so perfectly to that of Divine Providence, to the will of God, that nothing she does is not first the will of God.

And don't worry, it did not come across as debating, but is actually a very good question. But I'm sure others on here would be able to explain this better than I.

God Bless!
J.M.J.
Mark