Co-Redeemer?

[plainswolf]

http://www.catholic-legate.com/articles/icbridge.html

Excllent piece from a Protestant convert's point of view.

J.M.J.
Mark

 

[thereselittleflower]

Having looked through the responses, I have come to the conclusion that this is not going to be one of those things that comes untagled for me quickly or easily.

It is not at all surprising that this is the case . . Marian doctrines took quite a long time to become untangled for me .. a few of years actually . . . So I completely understand.

I am seeing some have various opinions among yourselves as Catholics as to the degree of understanding or belief that is required.

And that is expected as beyond what is defined in the catechism, this has not been fully defined yet, and it has not been dogmatically defined and proclaimed . . so there is room for variances in understanding in some ways.

For my part, it came to my mind the incident in Acts 8:26-40, where the Ethiopian Eunuch was converted by Philip after only a brief introduction to Christ, and then a Bapstism. The man went off with nothing but the book of Isaiah and a Baptism, certainly not with much in the way of what now seems to have grown to a ponderous degree of Catholic teaching, by all appearances saved.

The Church was in its infancey at that time as well, and just as you would not expect a human baby to have the understanding it will when an adult, so it is not at all surprising that the Church has grown in Her understanding of the doctrines handed down to Her from the apostles. God did not leave Ethiopia to be evangelized only by this lone Ethiopian, but used him to introduce the Gospel and prepare the way for other evangelists . . . .

Also, Christ says to the Apostles themselves that they will do greater things than He had, because He was going to the Father, and the Spirit was coming. How much more so then would not the living followers of Christ also seem to have superior authority on earth, with the operation of the Holy Spirit, than Mary?

Sorry . . I don't follow your logic here at all . . Mary is one of the disciples, so she should also be expected to do greater things than Christ THROUGH the Holy Spirit as promised. . . .Whether one is alive on earth or alive in heaven is immaterial . . . the Body of Christ is One and living.

There just seem to be a large number of fundamental things that interefere with my understanding of Mary as anyone with some sort of authority, nor any necessity for her to intercede for us with Christ, Himself the very instrument of our salvation and all too willing to hear and present for us when that time comes. I remember scripture that actually says it is the Holy Spirit who interecedes for us with groanings too deep for words, not Mary.

What about you? Do you intercede for others? If it is the Holy Spirit who intercedes for us and this somehow implies that Mary should not, then why do you intercede for others? Why are you doing the work of the Holy Spirit?

See. . your logic here is not holding . . .

The issue really is Mary . . . I would like you to consider something . .

In Genesis 3:15, God declares that there is a coming seed of a woman, foretelling the virgin birth of the Messiah . .. look what He says about the woman in particular

"I will put enmity between thee and the woman, between her seed and thy seed."


This enmity is something quite remarkable and specific to the virgin to come and satan . .. This of course is a direct reference to Mary . . and Mary has been given a very sepcial role of having a deep seated hatred and enmity towards satan . . God made Mary satan's personal enemy . . .

Is it no wonder then that he wants us to have as much difficulty in understanding her role within the Church, how she can help us, how she can help us with our spiritual journey as possible? The more difficulty we have, the less likely we are to accept her assistance or actively seek it . . . yet of all human beings on the face of this earth that have ever been or ever will be, she was given this special role which was foretold from the very beginning. The woman from whom the messiah would come was given this very unique and personal role . . .

satan tries to keep us from understanding this, for he knows that when we do, that we will ask for her intercession which is not good news for him at all.

Nor does it seem necessary for her to intercede with the Spirit, which is described as being poured out for all now, and who resides in the heart of the believer.

Then why do you intercede for others?

So questions multiply on this particular teaching for me, but you have all been wonderfull and patient and I do appreciate it. If you feel up to it, please do continue, but I don't want to wear people out over this either.

It takes time to shift one's perspective enough to "see" what we do . . .it is like looking at a mountain . . .if you are not seeing the side we are, our description can seem really off . . .


John Paul pray for us

 

[D'Ann]

It is not at all surprising that this is the case . . Marian doctrines took quite a long time to become untangled for me .. a few of years actually . . . So I completely understand.



And that is expected as beyond what is defined in the catechism, this has not been fully defined yet, and it has not been dogmatically defined and proclaimed . . so there is room for variances in understanding in some ways.



The Church was in its infancey at that time as well, and just as you would not expect a human baby to have the understanding it will when an adult, so it is not at all surprising that the Church has grown in Her understanding of the doctrines handed down to Her from the apostles. God did not leave Ethiopia to be evangelized only by this lone Ethiopian, but used him to introduce the Gospel and prepare the way for other evangelists . . . .



Sorry . . I don't follow your logic here at all . . Mary is one of the disciples, so she should also be expected to do greater things than Christ THROUGH the Holy Spirit as promised. . . .Whether one is alive on earth or alive in heaven is immaterial . . . the Body of Christ is One and living.



What about you? Do you intercede for others? If it is the Holy Spirit who intercedes for us and this somehow implies that Mary should not, then why do you intercede for others? Why are you doing the work of the Holy Spirit?

See. . your logic here is not holding . . .

The issue really is Mary . . . I would like you to consider something . .

In Genesis 3:15, God declares that there is a coming seed of a woman, foretelling the virgin birth of the Messiah . .. look what He says about the woman in particular

"I will put enmity between thee and the woman, between her seed and thy seed."


This enmity is something quite remarkable and specific to the virgin to come and satan . .. This of course is a direct reference to Mary . . and Mary has been given a very sepcial role of having a deep seated hatred and enmity towards satan . . God made Mary satan's personal enemy . . .

Is it no wonder then that he wants us to have as much difficulty in understanding her role within the Church, how she can help us, how she can help us with our spiritual journey as possible? The more difficulty we have, the less likely we are to accept her assistance or actively seek it . . . yet of all human beings on the face of this earth that have ever been or ever will be, she was given this special role which was foretold from the very beginning. The woman from whom the messiah would come was given this very unique and personal role . . .

satan tries to keep us from understanding this, for he knows that when we do, that we will ask for her intercession which is not good news for him at all.





Then why do you intercede for others?



It takes time to shift one's perspective enough to "see" what we do . . .it is like looking at a mountain . . .if you are not seeing the side we are, our description can seem really off . . .


John Paul pray for us

Amen and amen... Thank you for writing this.

 

[Rising_Suns]

The man went off with nothing but the book of Isaiah and a Baptism, certainly not with much in the way of what now seems to have grown to a ponderous degree of Catholic teaching, by all appearances saved.

In order to understand the nature of Christ's Church on earth, you must understand what Christ meant when He said that the Church is His bride. In this sense, she is a living organsim; she does not remain stagnant as some would pressume. As a bride seeks to grow and further unite with her husband, so too does the Church grow and seeks to further unite with Christ.

As such, you cannot expect the Church to be exactly the same as she was during the time of the Apostles. Such a mindset leads many people astray; they want to return to the time of the Apotles, as if the Church remained stagnant and never grew.

I would implore you not to fall into this same trap.

I remember scripture that actually says it is the Holy Spirit who interecedes for us with groanings too deep for words, not Mary.

Yes, but who hears the groanings?

Remember, a family is not complete without a mother. We have a complete family in heaven, because God elevated Mary to a very special role as our mother, one whom cares and nutures for us by bringing our petitions to God. Since she is spouse of the Holy Spirit (Mary conceived Christ with the Holy Spirit), she submits to Him as a wife is to submit to her husband. That's why the groanings of the Holy Spirit are heard by her.

Also, please read my signature.

Blessings,

-Davide

 

[asjs1206]

I just wanted to respond to the issue of Mary as the co-redeemer. I just left the Catholic Church 7 months ago for this particular reason, among other reasons that I just cannot agree with. But I feel that although Mary had an important role in bringing Christ to the world she was not set up as a redeemer while Christ was Walking on this earth-Jesus himself said that no one can come to the Father except thru ME (jesus). That is just a thought. I recognize we can all have our differences. But I just do not agree with their view of Mary...

 

[Dream]

I just wanted to respond to the issue of Mary as the co-redeemer. I just left the Catholic Church 7 months ago for this particular reason, among other reasons that I just cannot agree with. But I feel that although Mary had an important role in bringing Christ to the world she was not set up as a redeemer while Christ was Walking on this earth-Jesus himself said that no one can come to the Father except thru ME (jesus). That is just a thought. I recognize we can all have our differences. But I just do not agree with their view of Mary...

I recommend you re-read some of the posts that were already written.

 

[marciadietrich]

I just wanted to respond to the issue of Mary as the co-redeemer. I just left the Catholic Church 7 months ago for this particular reason, among other reasons that I just cannot agree with. But I feel that although Mary had an important role in bringing Christ to the world she was not set up as a redeemer while Christ was Walking on this earth-Jesus himself said that no one can come to the Father except thru ME (jesus). That is just a thought. I recognize we can all have our differences. But I just do not agree with their view of Mary...

All Catholics believe that salvation is thru Christ, and I'm not sure that this should have been an issue worth leaving over, as I think you misunderstand it.

This idea is only saying Mary, like all of us, has a role in helping bring others to redemption IN CHRIST. (Somebody shares the gospel with us, took us to church, told us about Jesus, helps us learn more about our faith, prays for us, etc.) Her role was more immediate in giving birth to and raising him, being there during the time of his earthly ministry and his death, resurrection and even her presence at pentecost. Mary is also representative of the entire church, so this is about us as well, all of who are a part of the Body of Christ.

A practicing Catholic should know that the focus of each Mass IS Christ. He is there on the altar, we offer his sacrifice at Calvary to the Father with our very selves. That our salvation is thru him, and without him none could be saved and reconciled to the Father ... not even Mary would have that without HIS saving grace and merits.

I disagree with some of the language in Marian ideas, because it does confuse people on first glance ... and I think there should be a greater emphasis on how it relates to each one of us as Christians rather than declaring her in particular to have a particular role, it should be the church that has that role of which she is a member and a "type" or representative for the Church.

Marcia

 

[bigsierra]

I just wanted to respond to the issue of Mary as the co-redeemer. I just left the Catholic Church 7 months ago for this particular reason, among other reasons that I just cannot agree with. But I feel that although Mary had an important role in bringing Christ to the world she was not set up as a redeemer while Christ was Walking on this earth-Jesus himself said that no one can come to the Father except thru ME (jesus). That is just a thought. I recognize we can all have our differences. But I just do not agree with their view of Mary...

This reminds me of John Corbett, the actor that left the Church because he never heard the Bible. Now he doesn't attend church. He just reads his bible.

"I'm not even Catholic anymore. I'm a born-again Christian now…I went to twelve years of Catholic school and never read the Bible. I read the Bible for the first time when I was, I don't know…I was a born-again Christian…I accepted the Lord in '86, so I was about twenty-five or twenty-six. That's the first time I read the Bible. Weird. Weird to go to [Catholic] school for twelve years and never read the Bible.

You know the Catholic Church was just phenomenal to me. Even when I go now - I still go to midnight mass, just because my girl likes to go to the service. I lay there an hour later not having absorbed anything, except if the priest sort of speaks freely. And I've found very few of those priests who sort of speak freely…and just sort of talk.



That's what I liked about the non-denominational church. You'd have a fellow up there, there wasn't any format, he wasn't wearing anything fancy, and he was just sort of interpreting the Bible. And I liked that. And that never happened in the Catholic Church. It was all this sort of pomp and circumstance that just sort of left me in a daze."

http://www.christiananswers.net/spotlight/movies/2004/raisinghelen-interviews.html

So, you're attending a non-denominational church now?

Corbett: No. Not anymore. I'm a guy who reads the Bible now. I don't go to church.

http://www.christianitytoday.com/movies/interviews/johncorbett.html

 

[thereselittleflower]

I just wanted to respond to the issue of Mary as the co-redeemer. I just left the Catholic Church 7 months ago for this particular reason, among other reasons that I just cannot agree with. But I feel that although Mary had an important role in bringing Christ to the world she was not set up as a redeemer while Christ was Walking on this earth

I am very sorry to hear you left the Catholic Church over a misunderstanding of Her doctrines . .

Mary is not a redeemer . . she is a CO-redeemer . .the word "CO" is very important . . .

YOU, if you are doing the work of God, ARE A CO-redeemer as well. We all are.

PAUL was a CO-redeemer . . he said so himself . . he said he was filling up in his flesh the suffering that were lacking in Christ.

How can that be if Chrsit alone redeems without any help from us? Without CO-redeemers?

Jesus himself said that no one can come to the Father except thru ME (jesus).

I am sorry you do not understand that someone being a CO-redeemer means that those who come to God through their work are coming to God THROUGH CHRIST, for they are being CO-redeemers WITH CHRSIT . . not instead of Christ . .. the word "CO" means WITH . . . not alone or instead of . . .

You have rejected something the Catholic Church does not teach, and have accepted in its place a warped view of Catholicism; not the Cahtolic Church . . but a mythical Cathoic Church.

Do you not realize that when you ask someone to intercede for you that you are going to God through them?

That is just a thought. I recognize we can all have our differences. But I just do not agree with their view of Mary...

I would not agree with your version of the Cathoic view of Mary either . . In fact, I would run hard the other direction.

But because such mythical views about Mary and Catholic teaching about Mary permeate the thinking of those outside of Catholicism and I was subject to the same, I had a very hard time seing past them to the REAL and TRUE Cathoalic views and teachings about Mary . . but once I was able to discard those mythical views, such as what you have presented here, I was able to see Mary the way the Church really sees Mary, and Oh what a wonder!

Many of us have made the journey from the misconceptions such as you hold to about the Cathoic Church and Mary to the truth . . .

What you are rejecting is NOT Church teaching, but someone's flawed and twisted versin of it.

That's all . .


Peace


John Paul pray for us

 

[cleopa_of_emmaus]

Mary as co-redemptrix is not dogma, but it appears that this group is working on getting it declared the 5th Marian Dogma:

http://www.voxpopuli.org/

It has a good FAQ section.

~cleopa

 

[artnalex]

Mary as co-redemptrix is not dogma,

It is not dogma yet, but if properly understood, the term "co-redemptrix" or "co-redeemer" is very well earned by Our Lady. I think one of the main reasons the Church does not declare it dogma yet is that Protestant's and un-educated Catholics could be misled into thinking the Church is declaring something it isn't with that title.

Despite not being formally defined, the church already teaches it.

 

[cleopa_of_emmaus]

If we are all "co-redeemers", then why is it so necessary to dogmatically declare Mary as co-redemptrix?

~Cleopa

 

[plainswolf]

One thing I was thinking of tonight while praying the Joyful Mysteries was the second Joyful Mystery, the visitation, when Saint John the Baptist lept in the womb of saint Elizabeth as he was Sanctified... this happened at the word of Mary, in whose purest womb the Divine Infant was hidden.

J.M.J.
Mark

 

[artnalex]

If we are all "co-redeemers", then why is it so necessary to dogmatically declare Mary as co-redemptrix?

~Cleopa

Huh? Because it is true! All Truth's are to be proclaimed, not hidden.

 

[thereselittleflower]

If we are all "co-redeemers", then why is it so necessary to dogmatically declare Mary as co-redemptrix?

~Cleopa

It speaks to her special place in redemptive history and is Christological as are all her titles . . .It says something in particular about her unique relationship to the Redeemer, and her unique role in redemption . . she alone carried Christ in her womb . .

It took two to fall . . Adam AND Eve . . for Adam would not have fallen if it had not been for Eve's role, though secondary . . It took two for redemtion, for Christ would not have come if it had not been for Mary's fiat to God in contrast to Eve's No to God, though Mary's role is secondary and completely dependent on Christ's.

She of all of us who have walked this earth most deserves to be recognized by such a title . . it is a title of honor to so name her . ,. it is a title that also speaks to us of who she is in God's salvific plan . . .

We all can be called co-redeemers, but she most of all deserves the recognition given by such by such a title.

At the very least, it is a title of honor and love we bestow upon her in recognition of her special place in salvific history.


John Paul pray for us

 

[cleopa_of_emmaus]

Huh? Because it is true! All Truth's are to be proclaimed, not hidden.

What do you mean, "huh"? The dogma of Mary as co-redemptrix was rejected by the Vatican in the past because of serious theological difficulties. There were even bishops who suggested the dogma during the Second Vatican Council, but it was shot down.

It is not dogma.

~cleopa

 

[HisKid1973]

Hi guys I am learning some things here, but I never read anything in the bible about this: can you explain please.thanks Kim

"The more the Holy Ghost finds Mary, His dear
and inseparable spouse, in any soul, the more
active and mighty He becomes in producing Jesus
Christ in that soul, and that soul in Jesus Christ"
-Saint Louis De Monfort

 

[bigsierra]

Hi guys I am learning some things here, but I never read anything in the bible about this: can you explain please.thanks Kim

"The more the Holy Ghost finds Mary, His dear
and inseparable spouse, in any soul, the more
active and mighty He becomes in producing Jesus
Christ in that soul, and that soul in Jesus Christ"
-Saint Louis De Monfort

I recommend "Hail Holy Queen" audio series, by Scott Hahn. It's free for download at EWTN. http://www.ewtn.com/vondemand/audio/seriessearchprog.asp?seriesID=6668&T1=hail+holy+queen

 

[D'Ann]

I recommend "Hail Holy Queen" audio series, by Scott Hahn. It's free for download at EWTN. http://www.ewtn.com/vondemand/audio/seriessearchprog.asp?seriesID=6668&T1=hail+holy+queen[/QUOTE]

Wow... that's an awesome audio series... You'll enjoy listening to this ...

God's Peace,

D'Ann

 

[artnalex]

The dogma of Mary as co-redemptrix was rejected by the Vatican in the past because of serious theological difficulties.

Wait. The doctrine of Mary as Co-Redemptrix is based on the fact that Mary was given the privilege of saying "yes" to the Incarnation, which was the first essential step in our redemption. Since all graces come to us from the fact that Jesus became incarnate to die for us, Mary's "Fiat" (let it be) is what has opened the floodgates of God's graces on humanity.

I agree that Mary as co-redemptrix has not been proclaimed, but that doesn't mean the Church doesn't already acknowledge it.

Can you show me where the Church has "rejected" the idea that Mary is "co-redemptrix"? I know they have declined giving Mary this title, publically, but have yet to hear them reject it outright.

The Feast of Mary Mediatrix of all Graces, which means more or less the same as co-redemptrix, has long been authorized in Belgium and possibly elsewhere.

To me, this is the same as when the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption of Mary took so long to be proclaimed dogma. It wasn't like the Church didn't teach it before then, just that the church ends-up waiting for millions of Catholics to petition for it. When the term "co-redemptrix" is generally understood and a great number of Catholics desire the proclamation, then probably the pope will consider it seriously.

In fact, Pope Joh Paul II had often spoken about it. I'll try to find his writing, but I have a quote where JPII said "Mary, though conceived and born without the taint of sin, participated in a marvelous way in the sufferings of her divine Son, in order to be Coredemptrix of humanity."

Again, you are correct in saying that it is not yet dogma. In fact, it may never be declared as such. But that doesn't mean it isn't already believed and taught by the church.

Here are some websites that speak to the subject.

An Explanation of the Coredemptrix of Mary Title

Mary, Coredemptrix: The Significance of Her Title in the Magisterium of The Church

Pope John Paul II's Teaching on Marian Coredemption


[Good night guys (and gals)! It's 12:00am here and I have to work tomorrow.]