Co-Redeemer?

[Shane Roach]

The bolded part is problematic. No one takes anything from God. God gives, we receive. That would be true in Mary's case as well. If God ordained that Mary would be the mediatrix of all graces, it would be God's will, and not anything Mary took.





What if it wasn't counsel that He was seeking? What if Mary cooperated with His Divine Will?

With all the what if, I am left still wondering what the actual teaching is. The quote I was looking at saying it was all of her will, though, is the part that makes it look as if it is not Mary cooperating with anything, but that it is her will. If it is something that God gave her to do, that she then does in perfect submission to His will first and foremost, then the wording that it is her will in her time and to whatever degree she wills becomes sort of misleading as far as I can understand it.

I actually relate well to the idea of Mary as a sort of anti-Eve, and I do not wish to belittle her place in things, but when I read "and one mediator between God and men, the man Jesus Christ." That seems to undo any possibility for mediation alongside by Mary, or indeed for the rest of us. If we pray for intercession, that is all well and good, but we are not mediating. Rather, it seems many of us together might pray, and Christ in mediation would present these prayers, but not Mary...?

I am off for some sleep. I had an urge to come see the Catholic forum, as I remember KC Catholic fondly. She helped answer a lot of questions of this sort for me in the past. What with the Pope's passing, different things are coming to the fore again and I just felt like popping by. Then I discovered this thread and it raised the question. Thanks for all efforts at explanation!

 

[plainswolf]

Please stop by more! you ask very good questions! read my signature line, that may help understand this matter better.

God Bless!
Mark

 

[bigsierra]

I am off for some sleep. I had an urge to come see the Catholic forum, as I remember KC Catholic fondly. She helped answer a lot of questions of this sort for me in the past. What with the Pope's passing, different things are coming to the fore again and I just felt like popping by. Then I discovered this thread and it raised the question. Thanks for all efforts at explanation!

Sleep tight.

KC Catholic is a good guy. I believe he has a Methodist background also.

 

[plainswolf]

"The more the Holy Ghost finds Mary, His dear
and inseparable spouse, in any soul, the more
active and mighty He becomes in producing Jesus
Christ in that soul, and that soul in Jesus Christ"
-Saint Louis De Monfort

 

[Carrye]

I am not well-versed in Mariology, so maybe these will help?

http://www.ewtn.com/faith/teachings/marya4.htm

http://www.voxpopuli.org/faq4.php

From JPII:
[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]He said in a General Audience (L'Osservatore Romano, N. 41, Weekly Edition 11) "Mary exercises her role as `ADVOCATE' by co-operating both with the Spirit the Paraclete and with the One who interceded on the Cross for his persecutors (cf. Lk 23:24) whom John calls our Advocate with the Father (1 Jn 2:1)." [/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]In his encyclical Mother of the Redeemer, he wrote, "Mary places herself between her Son and mankind in the reality of their wants, needs and sufferings. She puts herself `in the middle,' that is to say she acts as a MEDIATRIX not as an outsider, but in her position as mother." [/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The Pope said in a General Audience, "We recall that Mary's mediation is essentially defined by her divine motherhood. Recognition of her role as MEDIATRIX is moreover implicit in the expression `Our Mother'" (L'Osservatore Romano, N. 41, Weekly Edition 11). [/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]In Guayaquil, Ecuador (Jan. 31, 1985) the Holy Father said, "As she was in a special way close to the cross of her Son, she also had to have a privileged experience of his Resurrection. In fact, Mary's role as COREDEMPTRIX did not cease with the glorification of her Son." [/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The Holy Father greeted the sick in his General Audience of September 8, 1982. He said, "Mary, though conceived and born without the taint of sin, participated in a marvelous way in the suffering of her divine Son, in order to be COREDEMPTRIX of humanity." (Insegnamenti di Giovanni Paolo II, I, V/3 [1982] 404 ) [/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]He said in 1985, "May, Mary our Protectress, the COREDEMPTRIX, to whom we offer our prayer with great outpouring, make our desire generously correspond to the desire of the Redeemer." (Inseg VIII/1 (1985) L'Osservatore Romano 880:12)."[/font]
http://www.mariansolidarity.com/ladyofallnations/dopp01c.html

 

[thereselittleflower]

It's my understanding that it's not an ex cathedra teaching, but that it is a tenet of the faith. It could be declared ex cathedra, it just hasn't been. If I understand it right.

That is how I understand it as well.


John Paul pray for us

I don't think I like the idea of it being pronounced that way, because it's just going to cause more confusion where Protestants and I guess even the Orthodox are concerned, though.

Michelle

No doubt it will . . .but I think it is going to be proclaimed at some point and I would fully support it being so if the Pope and Bishops decide to do so. . . .

We will just hve to explain it . . what else is new.



John Paul pray for us

 

[bigsierra]

We will just hve to explain it . . what else is new.

haha, True

 

[plainswolf]

I HIGHLY recommend "True Devotion to Mary" by Saint Louis De Monfort.. absolutely profound and beautiful!

 

[plainswolf]

http://www.tanbooks.com/index.php/page/shop:flypage/product_id/248/keywords/true,devotion/

 

[bigsierra]

http://www.tanbooks.com/index.php/page/shop:flypage/product_id/248/keywords/true,devotion/

It's free online here(thanks to Shakkai for having it posted on her blog ):
http://www.montfort.org.uk/Writings/TrueDev.html

 

[Carrye]

Shane, go to bed. This will still be here for you in the morning.

God bless you, and your questions. We're always happy to have someone who is genuinely interested in learning in OBOB.

 

[thereselittleflower]

With all the what if, I am left still wondering what the actual teaching is. The quote I was looking at saying it was all of her will, though, is the part that makes it look as if it is not Mary cooperating with anything, but that it is her will.

The act of cooperating IS an action that arises out of our free will . . our freedom to CHOOSE to cooperate . . the choice to do so was a result of her free will acting in this manner. . .

So it is not an either/or situation. It is a both/and situation.

If it is something that God gave her to do, that she then does in perfect submission to His will first and foremost, then the wording that it is her will in her time and to whatever degree she wills becomes sort of misleading as far as I can understand it.

How so? If God gives you something to do, He does not sit there and dictate to you how to do it . . He has given you free will . . do you think Mary's will is less free than yours?

But her will is in perfect union with God's will . . in heaven, this is the way it is . . With Mary, it is the way it has always been for her.


It is not "her" will as somehow opposed to God's will . . it is "her" will "in union with" God's . . . so how could she do anything contrary to God's will? This is understood to be so in such statements as you referenced above. I know how it can seem problematic to non-Catholics, however, if you keep in mind that some things are simply assumed by Catholics, such as Mary's will being in full union with God's, then such statements are understood in that light.

Again, it is not an either/or situation . .but a both/and one.

I actually relate well to the idea of Mary as a sort of anti-Eve, and I do not wish to belittle her place in things, but when I read "and one mediator between God and men, the man Jesus Christ." That seems to undo any possibility for mediation alongside by Mary, or indeed for the rest of us.

Not at all . .. What is Christ the One Mediator of? The context of that statement by Paul makes it clear that it is the NEW COVENANT . . . There are many mediators, otherwise how could Paul be filling up in his flesh what was lacking in the sufferings of Christ?

It is simply that no one other than Christ is mediator of the New Covenant . . .

Intercession is a form of mediation . . there are MANY, MANY intercessors . . this has nothing to do with Christ being the One Mediator . ..

Does this make sense?

If we pray for intercession, that is all well and good, but we are not mediating.

If you are interceeding for someone you most definitely ARE mediating. There are different types of mediation . . this is what needs to be remembered.

Rather, it seems many of us together might pray, and Christ in mediation would present these prayers, but not Mary...?

How is it then that the 24 elders in Revelation offer the prayers of the saints to God in golden bowls? How is it then that the angels in heaven offer up the prayers of the saints with incense?

I am off for some sleep. I had an urge to come see the Catholic forum, as I remember KC Catholic fondly. She helped answer a lot of questions of this sort for me in the past. What with the Pope's passing, different things are coming to the fore again and I just felt like popping by. Then I discovered this thread and it raised the question. Thanks for all efforts at explanation!

I hope what I have shared has helped. You know you can stop by more often


John Paul pray for us

 

[thereselittleflower]

"The more the Holy Ghost finds Mary, His dear
and inseparable spouse, in any soul, the more
active and mighty He becomes in producing Jesus
Christ in that soul, and that soul in Jesus Christ"
-Saint Louis De Monfort

Amen!

What sweet words.

I was just explaining this to my children earlier today.


John Paul pray for us

 

[thereselittleflower]

Saint Bernardine of Siena (d 1444), Fransiscan, said "I do not hestitate to say that she has received a certain jurisdiction over all graces . . They are administered through her hands to whom she pleases, when she pleases, as she pleases, and as much as she pleases." (quotes from Dictionary of Mary, Mediatrix,, pg 322)


I think it is quotes like this that make a protestant tend to want to run screaming to the hills. I cannot imagine Mary, or any other faithfull follower of Christ, taking control over that which God foreknew and predestined since before the foundation of the earth (Rom 8:29).

I know, I used to be one of them

Just remember that quotes from sources like that are devotional in nature. . . they have to be understood in their full context which includes the Church's full understanding of who Mary is and what position she occupies. Quotes like that never stand on their own. Context is everything.

Let me ask you . . don't you think that Mary, who is in heaven, would will anything that is contrary to God's will? Choose anything that is contrary to God's choice? Do you think there is any division of purpose, understanding, will in heaven?

I don't.

I do not believe God takes counsel with Mary before deciding where or how or to what degree to bestow His blessings.

However, if God has chosen to dispense all graces through her, do you not think she would be taking counsel with God before deciding how or to what degree to bestow His blessings every momment?

I'm not sure if this is what this teaching is trying to imply, or if I even understand the quote I just sampled from a post above, but it's the sort of thing that continues to keep me at a distance, however respectful, from the Catholic church.

I understand, and this has a great deal to do with perspectivie and understanding of another's mindset and that phrases, which carry one connotation to you, do not carry the same connotation to us . . . Our words and phrases, in order to be properly understood, need to be taken within the full context of Catholic teaching on a matter . . otherwise, one is going to come to the wrong conclusions about what we are really saying.

I get woderfull explanations of Catholicism here and certainly I have learned to accept a lot that I used to not, but this sort of thing is pretty hard core and strikes so very close to the heart of my understanding of God Himself.

Once you make the shift of persepctive that is required, and take into consideration the context of all of Catholic teaching on Mary, on who she is and what position she occupies, then it all begins to make sense . .

Mary is never put into a superior position to God . . .she is always working in full submission, in full cooperation with God.

Is it not to be considered so great an honor to be entrusted by God with the dispensing of all graces to her? Obviously, this could not be if God did not trust her to do so in complete agreement and submission to HIS will.

Do you see that our understanding is one of Mary being always subordinate, always submissive, always acting in complete and total concert with God's plan and purpose, her will always in cmplete and total concert with God's?

Hoping someone can clear that up a little... Hope this does not come across as 'debating'. Also hope my 'question' is understood. I can't seem to formulate it as one single question, but as a lack of understanding of how parts of what have been posted on this thread can be reconciled with this. On the one hand, Mary is not considered co-equal with Christ, yet here is a quote that describes her operation as co-equal with Christ in more or less a step by step manner, thus undoing all the previous claims that this is not what the doctrine means...

No . .she is not co-equal . . . "co" does not mean "equal" it means "with" . . it does not imply equality at all . . . as protestants, we tend to reead the word "equal" into such phrases as "Co-redemtrix" and make it read "Co-equal-Redemtrix" . . .

It is a matter of perspecitve . . . It merely means "redeemer with" not "redeemer equal with" . . .

Do you see the difference? Has what I posted helped? It is great you are asking us . . please let us know how we can help you understand what we believe.



John Paul pray for us

 

[thereselittleflower]

First, you should understand that Mary as Mediatrix is not (yet?) Catholic dogma. And so at least right now, it is something that a Catholic can choose to (or not to) assent to.

Hi Carrye . . actually, this is not quite true . . it is doctrine, even if it is not yet dogma, and all doctrine must be assented to . . . the difference is the level or degree of assent necessary.


John Paul pray for us

 

[thereselittleflower]

I HIGHLY recommend "True Devotion to Mary" by Saint Louis De Monfort.. absolutely profound and beautiful!

Yes, but not at all easily understood by protestants, in fact it may be very difficult for protestants to understand.. . . I came across this book while still a protestant . . I was confounded by many of the things I read in there . . I was horrified by many of the things I read in there simply because of the perspective I was coming from . . . Once God had worked on my heart to change my perspective, everything began to change . . I understood what I first could not accept . . .

One must remember that it is a devotional book . . it is beautiful .. but, like most things Catholic, if one is looking at it from the outside like at a stained glass window, it can look confusing to say the least, and perhaps downright ugly . . .but once you come inside and look at the stained glass window from the inside with the sunlight streaming through it, it looks magnificant and beautiful, full of wonder . . .


John Paul pray for us

 

[Rising_Suns]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to thereselittleflower again.

 

[Rising_Suns]

Saint Bernardine of Siena (d 1444), Fransiscan, said "I do not hestitate to say that she has received a certain jurisdiction over all graces . . They are administered through her hands to whom she pleases, when she pleases, as she pleases, and as much as she pleases." (quotes from Dictionary of Mary, Mediatrix,, pg 322)

Amen.

Thank you for the wonderful quote.

Blessings,

-Davide

 

[plainswolf]

Yes, but not at all easily understood by protestants, in fact it may be very difficult for protestants to understand.. . . I came across this book while still a protestant . . I was confounded by many of the things I read in there . . I was horrified by many of the things I read in there simply because of the perspective I was coming from . . . Once God had worked on my heart to change my perspective, everything began to change . . I understood what I first could not accept . . .

One must remember that it is a devotional book . . it is beautiful .. but, like most things Catholic, if one is looking at it from the outside like at a stained glass window, it can look confusing to say the least, and perhaps downright ugly . . .but once you come inside and look at the stained glass window from the inside with the sunlight streaming through it, it looks magnificant and beautiful, full of wonder . . .


John Paul pray for us

Though I was born Catholic, I knew VERY little about it till later in life. But it was upon reading this book(True Devotion to Mary), as an ignorant Catholic, that so profoundly inspired me that I came back to the Catholic Faith... of which I then began studying. But you are correct that the Protestant mindset and approach can be very different. But it could be said that I was more Protestant, in thought and practice, than Catholic when I read that.

 

[Shane Roach]

Having looked through the responses, I have come to the conclusion that this is not going to be one of those things that comes untagled for me quickly or easily.

I am seeing some have various opinions among yourselves as Catholics as to the degree of understanding or belief that is required. For my part, it came to my mind the incident in Acts 8:26-40, where the Ethiopian Eunuch was converted by Philip after only a brief introduction to Christ, and then a Bapstism. The man went off with nothing but the book of Isaiah and a Baptism, certainly not with much in the way of what now seems to have grown to a ponderous degree of Catholic teaching, by all appearances saved.

Also, Christ says to the Apostles themselves that they will do greater things than He had, because He was going to the Father, and the Spirit was coming. How much more so then would not the living followers of Christ also seem to have superior authority on earth, with the operation of the Holy Spirit, than Mary?

There just seem to be a large number of fundamental things that interefere with my understanding of Mary as anyone with some sort of authority, nor any necessity for her to intercede for us with Christ, Himself the very instrument of our salvation and all too willing to hear and present for us when that time comes. I remember scripture that actually says it is the Holy Spirit who interecedes for us with groanings too deep for words, not Mary.

Nor does it seem necessary for her to intercede with the Spirit, which is described as being poured out for all now, and who resides in the heart of the believer.

So questions multiply on this particular teaching for me, but you have all been wonderfull and patient and I do appreciate it. If you feel up to it, please do continue, but I don't want to wear people out over this either.