Clarifying the Debate "basics" on Sabbath and the TEN Commandments

[SabbathBlessings]

Malachi 3:8 - “Will a mere mortal rob God? Yet you rob me. “But you ask, ‘How are we robbing you?’ In tithes and offerings. 9 You are under a curse—your whole nation—because you are robbing me. The whole nation of Israel. Malachi is written to the Israelites under the old covenant.

In 2 Corinthians 9:5-7, we read: Therefore I thought it necessary to exhort the brethren to go to you ahead of time, and prepare your generous gift beforehand, which you had previously promised, that it may be ready as a matter of generosity and not as a grudging obligation. But this I say: He who sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and he who sows bountifully will also reap bountifully. So let each one give as he purposes in his heart, not grudgingly or of necessity; for God loves a cheerful giver.

I don't see a "specific percentage" commanded anywhere for Christians to give "under the new covenant," but I certainly believe in giving and not just to our church. I also believe that everything we own belongs to God.

God’s people in the Bible are Israelites and we are God’s Israel if you are of Christ. There is no more Jew or Gentile. Gal 3:28

God bless

 

[Bob S]

Hi SB, Have you read anything about the Israelite tithing system? If you have then you would know that only those who raised crops or livestock were ever required to pay tithe. And the tithe was never to be paid in shekels. One animal out of every ten raised was taken to the Levite storehouse and the same for all their crops. Jesus would never have paid tithe because He was a tradesman. All the remainder of Israelites were never required to tithe. Your church is telling you something that is an untruth. They are lying to you when they quote Malachi as if those verses pertain to you. Do you realize what Ellen White wrote about SDAs paying tithe?

God's reserved resources are to be used in no such haphazard way. The tithe is the Lord's, and those who meddle with it will be punished with the loss of their heavenly treasure unless they repent. Let the work no longer be hedged up because the tithe has been diverted into various channels other than the one to which the Lord has said it should go. Provision is to be made for these other lines of work. They are to be sustained, but not from the tithe. God has not changed; the tithe is still to be used for the support of the ministry. The opening of new fields requires more ministerial efficiency than we now have, and there must be means in the treasury. {9T 249.4}

Ellen evidently didn't read the Levitical tithing system and were ignorant concerning how the system worked. She wrongfully deemed her flock to Hell if they didn't cough up ten percent of all their increase. No wonder Paul or any of the other New Testament writers ever mentioned anything about tithing. The old covenant system of tithing ended at Calvary were the new and better covenant began. New covenant believers are to: On the first day of every week, each one of you should set aside a sum of money in keeping with your income, saving it up, so that when I come no collections will have to be made. 1Cor16:2


As you can see, New Testament believers should give to support God's pastors and it is done with money, quite contrary to the Levitical tithing system that was used to support the Levitical priesthood and their families.

 

[Bob S]

Hi Leaf,

What is it you do not understand about tithing? Have you read Malachi 3:8-12? I sure do not want to robe God of His tithes but God does give us free will.

The real fact is that you, my friend, do not have any understanding about the Levitical tithing system. Malachi isn't referring to you and me. It was referring to those who came under the tithing laws, those who raised livestock and or crops. You have accepted a belief that is not, in the least, true.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

The real fact is that you, my friend, do not have any understanding about the Levitical tithing system. Malachi isn't referring to you and me. It was referring to those who came under the tithing laws, those who raised livestock and or crops. You have accepted a belief that is not, in the least, true.

You are free to believe as you wish and if it makes you comfortable not tithing I will leave that between you and God.

 

[Bob S]

You are free to believe as you wish and if it makes you comfortable not tithing I will leave that between you and God.

So are you. What I wonder is why you refuse to believe what the Bible is so plainly telling us? Why would you believe what a church demands over the truths found in scripture? Are you able to prove that your church is telling the truth about tithing? So far you certainly have not.

 

[BobRyan]

When I first came on this thread, I asked if this was the right place to talk about specific laws other than the ten commandments. You replied that Yes, it was.

I incorrectly assumed you were not stuck rejecting the Ten.

First things first. For those who fully accept the easy part that even Bible scholars on both sides of the Sabbath topic freely admit to (in almost all Christian denominations) going to the next level is fine.

 

[Leaf473]

Yes as I mentioned previously, there is no where in the Bible that shows we should stop tithing so yes, it is included. Hope this helps.

Thanks

Your list, then, is:

The Ten Commandments

Eat only clean foods

You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your might.

You shall love your neighbor as yourself.

Lev 27:30 All the tithe of the land, whether of the seed of the land or of the fruit of the trees, is the Lord’s. It is holy to the Lord.

Lev. 27:32 And concerning the tithe of the herd or the flock, of whatever passes under the rod, the tenth one shall be holy to the Lord.

Is the list complete? That is, do you say that is this a complete list of all of God's eternal laws from Genesis to Deuteronomy?

Edit: I forgot to include Leviticus 27:30

 

[Leaf473]

I incorrectly assumed you were not stuck rejecting the Ten.

First things first. For those who fully accept the easy part that even Bible scholars on both sides of the Sabbath topic freely admit to (in almost all Christian denominations) going to the next level is fine.

I'm not stuck rejecting the 10. It's a matter of keeping them in principle or by the letter, which is where the other commandments come in.

But I hear the feeling of what you're saying, so if you don't want to talk to me anymore on this thread, that's fine.

Peace be with you!

 

[BobRyan]

I'm not stuck rejecting the 10. It's a matter of keeping them in principle or by the letter,

The spirit of the Law never condemns the letter of the Law - so when God says "do not take God's name in vain" it is not "violated" by expanding the claims for that law.

The same is true for all TEN.

After having some time to look at Hebrews with some good Bible study tools, I think the best interpretation of what is being take away is the law.

By contrast Paul says - the Law of God that remains includes the TEN "having honor your father and mother and the first commandment with a promise" Eph 6:2

Each time I point this out you respond to this Bible detail "how"??

 

[Leaf473]

The spirit of the Law never condemns the letter of the Law - so when God says "do not take God's name in vain" it is not "violated" by expanding the claims for that law.

The same is true for all TEN.




By contrast Paul says - the Law of God that remains includes the TEN "having honor your father and mother and the first commandment with a promise" Eph 6:2

Each time I point this out you respond to this Bible detail "how"??

Whether we are talking about one of the ten commandments or Paul's letter to the Ephesians, the issue of the principle or the letter of the law is best addressed by talking about details of laws in addition to the ten commandments, imo.

Are you interested in doing that?

The last thing I have heard is that you do not want to talk about laws other than the ten commandments.

 

[BobRyan]

Whether we are talking about one of the ten commandments or Paul's letter to the Ephesians, the issue of the principle or the letter of the law is best addressed by talking about details of laws in addition to the ten commandments, imo.

Are you interested in doing that?

The last thing I have heard is that you do not want to talk about laws other than the ten commandments.

This thread is about the TEN - and if you were actually someone who embraced God's Ten commandments and wanted to look at others such as "Love God with all your heart" Deut 6:5 or "Love your neighbor as yourself" Lev 19:18 to emphasize how the moral law of God written on the heart not only includes the TEN but others "as well" -- we would have a good deal to discuss (which is what I thought you were initially talking about).

But "given" that your real position is ..

Leaf473 said: ↑
After having some time to look at Hebrews with some good Bible study tools, I think the best interpretation of what is being take away is the law.

Which means you not only reject the Sabbath commandment but also "do not take God's name in vain" and whatever other commands in you find in God's Law. So then that is an entirely different matter altogether because you make it appear that you cannot afford to discuss the "TEN" as it would expose your POV to a certain light that would not be altogether flattering from a certain POV.

 

[BobRyan]

Whether we are talking about one of the ten commandments or Paul's letter to the Ephesians, the issue of the principle or the letter of the law is best addressed by talking about details of laws in addition to the ten commandments, imo.

It all depends on what you are trying to avoid by not discussing the TEN.

 

[BobRyan]

I'm not stuck rejecting the 10. It's a matter of keeping them in principle or by the letter,

Is your view of "principle" in blatant violation of the Letter?

Is Christ in Matt 5 teaching rebellion against the Letter of the Law while holding to some vague notion of "principle" as if that was a "good thing"? OR is His affirmation of principle fully embracing the letter and going even beyond it?

Both NT and OT affirm works of mercy done on the Sabbath but neither OT nor NT endorse the idea of ignoring the Sabbath Commandment or declaring it "done away with"

This is also true of the commandment "do not take God's name in vain" Ex 20:7

 

[BobRyan]

When I first came on this thread, I asked if this was the right place to talk about specific laws other than the ten commandments. You replied that Yes, it was.

I responded with this

This is the perfect thread for that topic... thanks for bringing it up.

In Gen 4 God implies murder is a sin speaking to Cain "SIN is crouching at your door" but the law-on-stones is not given until Sinai - it was there in Eden none-the-less. And since "Sin IS transgression of the Law" 1 John 3:4 we know it existed as law.

Gen 26:5 "because Abraham obeyed Me and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes and My laws.”

Indeed - even "the Gospel was preached to Abraham" Gal 3:8

Clean and unclean animals are mentioned in Gen 6,7,8 - but the Lev 11 text is not in the book of Genesis - the distinction was there non-the-less.

The Baptist Confession of Faith , and also the Westminster Confession of Faith admit that all TEN of the Ten commandments were in Eden - D.L. Moody, R.C.Sproul, C.H.Spurgeon all admit to this.

IN Heb 10:4-12 we find that the laws given in (defined by) animal sacrifices and ceremonial offerings ended at the the cross just as those confessions of Faith state.

We also find that the civil laws under the Theocracy ended when that theocracy ended - just as those confessions of Faith state

1 Cor 7:10 Paul says that circumcision does not matter one way or the other "but what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" and the confessions of Faith above also notice this same Bible detail that these divisions in various kinds of Law are valid and one kind continues while another ends.

Paul is questioned in Acts 21 as to whether he is telling converted Christian Jews to no-longer circumcise their children and he denies it. (Notice they do not accuse him of telling gentiles that because there never was an OT or NT command for gentiles to do that so any accusation against Paul that he was telling newly converted Christian gentiles not to circumcise their children would be hollow.)

=================

This thread is about the TEN - and if you were actually someone who embraced God's Ten commandments and wanted to look at others such as "Love God with all your heart" Deut 6:5 or "Love your neighbor as yourself" Lev 19:18 to emphasize how the moral law of God written on the heart not only includes the TEN but others "as well" -- we would have a good deal to discuss (which is what I thought you were initially talking about).

Where I make it very clear how I viewed other texts that also had in them the moral law of God this way --

In Gen 4 God implies murder is a sin speaking to Cain "SIN is crouching at your door" but the law-on-stones is not given until Sinai - it was there in Eden none-the-less. And since "Sin IS transgression of the Law" 1 John 3:4 we know it existed as law.

Gen 26:5 "because Abraham obeyed Me and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes and My laws.”

Indeed - even "the Gospel was preached to Abraham" Gal 3:8

Clean and unclean animals are mentioned in Gen 6,7,8 - but the Lev 11 text is not in the book of Genesis - the distinction was there non-the-less.

The Baptist Confession of Faith , and also the Westminster Confession of Faith admit that all TEN of the Ten commandments were in Eden - D.L. Moody, R.C.Sproul, C.H.Spurgeon all admit to this.

IN Heb 10:4-12 we find that the laws given in (defined by) animal sacrifices and ceremonial offerings ended at the the cross just as those confessions of Faith state.

We also find that the civil laws under the Theocracy ended when that theocracy ended - just as those confessions of Faith state

1 Cor 7:10 Paul says that circumcision does not matter one way or the other "but what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" and the confessions of Faith above also notice this same Bible detail that these divisions in various kinds of Law are valid and one kind continues while another ends.

Paul is questioned in Acts 21 as to whether he is telling converted Christian Jews to no-longer circumcise their children and he denies it. (Notice they do not accuse him of telling gentiles that because there never was an OT or NT command for gentiles to do that so any accusation against Paul that he was telling newly converted Christian gentiles not to circumcise their children would be hollow.)

 

[The Liturgist]

I don't think any such thing and I don't think there is a quote of my saying any such thing.

=============== here is an interesting statement by D.L. Moody


DWIGHT L. MOODY

The Ten Commandments:
Exodus 20:2-17

.
The Fourth Commandment


Remember the Sabbath Day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: for in six days the LORD made heaven and Earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath Day, and hallowed it.


"THERE HAS BEEN an awful letting-down in this country regarding the Sabbath during the last twenty-five years, and many a man has been shorn of spiritual power, like Samson, because he is not straight on this question. Can you say that you observe the Sabbath properly? You may be a professed Christian: are you obeying this commandment? Or do you neglect the house of God on the Sabbath day, and spend your time drinking and carousing in places of vice and crime, showing contempt for God and His law? Are you ready to step into the scales? Where were you last Sabbath? How did you spend it?

"I honestly believe that this commandment is just as binding today as it ever was. I have talked with men who have said that it has been abrogated, but they have never been able to point to any place in the Bible where God repealed it. When Christ was on earth, He did nothing to set it aside; He freed it from the traces under which the scribes and Pharisees had put it, and gave it its true place.

"The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath." (Mark 2:27)

"It is just as practicable and as necessary for men today as it ever was- in fact, more than ever, because we live in such an intense age.

"The Sabbath was binding in Eden, and it has been in force ever since. The fourth commandment begins with the word remember, showing that the Sabbath already existed when God wrote this law on the tables of stone at Sinai. How can men claim that this one commandment has been done away with when they will admit that the other nine are still binding?

"I believe that the Sabbath question today is a vital one for the whole country. It is the burning question of the present time. If you give up the Sabbath the church goes; if you give up the church the home goes; and if the home goes the nation goes. That is the direction in which we are traveling.

The church of God is losing its power on account of so many people giving up the Sabbath, and using it to promote selfishness.

Dwight L. Moody was not a Sabbatarian but an early Evangelical, and by Sabbath, he meant Sunday, and he was promoting the adoption of what today are called “Blue Laws” to restrict work, the selling of alcohol, and other activities on Sundays. Also he died in the late 19th century.

So that text really has no contemporary relevance or Sabbatarian relevance. And citing it in support of the Sabbatarian position seems to me a non sequitur.

 

[BobRyan]

Dwight L. Moody was not a Sabbatarian but an early Evangelical, and by Sabbath, he meant Sunday,

He said "I keep Saturday as my Sabbath" - but I still don't class him as Sabbatarian since he would allow God's Word to be "edited".

Still he did affirm all TEN of the TEN commandments and agreed the Sabbath was binding on mankind even in Eden. So he did get a number of Bible details right. Which means on the VERY points where Moody and I AGREE - we find the most "objectors" on threads like this one opposing the very points he made in favor of the Bible.

 

[The Liturgist]

He said "I keep Saturday as my Sabbath" - but I still don't class him as Sabbatarian since he would allow God's Word to be "edited".

Still he did affirm all TEN of the TEN commandments and agreed the Sabbath was binding on mankind even in Eden. So he did get a number of Bible details right. Which means on the VERY points where Moody and I AGREE - we find the most "objectors" on threads like this one opposing the very points he made in favor of the Bible.

How can you edit the person of Jesus Christ?

Because only Jesus Christ is the Word of God. Read John 1:1-17

 

[BobRyan]

How can you edit the person of Jesus Christ?

I don't agree with "editing" Christ, or the Word of God or the Commandments of God.

Some go for that sort of thing... I do not.

 

[BABerean2]

I don't agree with "editing" Christ, or the Word of God or the Commandments of God.

Some go for that sort of thing... I do not.

Then how many sets of commandments are found below?


Joh 15:10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.


.

 

[Leaf473]

This thread is about the TEN - and if you were actually someone who embraced God's Ten commandments and wanted to look at others such as "Love God with all your heart" Deut 6:5 or "Love your neighbor as yourself" Lev 19:18 to emphasize how the moral law of God written on the heart not only includes the TEN but others "as well" -- we would have a good deal to discuss (which is what I thought you were initially talking about).

But "given" that your real position is ..



Which means you not only reject the Sabbath commandment but also "do not take God's name in vain" and whatever other commands in you find in God's Law. So then that is an entirely different matter altogether because you make it appear that you cannot afford to discuss the "TEN" as it would expose your POV to a certain light that would not be altogether flattering from a certain POV.

It all depends on what you are trying to avoid by not discussing the TEN.

Is your view of "principle" in blatant violation of the Letter?

Is Christ in Matt 5 teaching rebellion against the Letter of the Law while holding to some vague notion of "principle" as if that was a "good thing"? OR is His affirmation of principle fully embracing the letter and going even beyond it?

Both NT and OT affirm works of mercy done on the Sabbath but neither OT nor NT endorse the idea of ignoring the Sabbath Commandment or declaring it "done away with"

This is also true of the commandment "do not take God's name in vain" Ex 20:7

I responded with this



Where I make it very clear how I viewed other texts that also had in them the moral law of God this way --

In Gen 4 God implies murder is a sin speaking to Cain "SIN is crouching at your door" but the law-on-stones is not given until Sinai - it was there in Eden none-the-less. And since "Sin IS transgression of the Law" 1 John 3:4 we know it existed as law.

Gen 26:5 "because Abraham obeyed Me and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes and My laws.”

Indeed - even "the Gospel was preached to Abraham" Gal 3:8

Clean and unclean animals are mentioned in Gen 6,7,8 - but the Lev 11 text is not in the book of Genesis - the distinction was there non-the-less.

The Baptist Confession of Faith , and also the Westminster Confession of Faith admit that all TEN of the Ten commandments were in Eden - D.L. Moody, R.C.Sproul, C.H.Spurgeon all admit to this.

IN Heb 10:4-12 we find that the laws given in (defined by) animal sacrifices and ceremonial offerings ended at the the cross just as those confessions of Faith state.

We also find that the civil laws under the Theocracy ended when that theocracy ended - just as those confessions of Faith state

1 Cor 7:10 Paul says that circumcision does not matter one way or the other "but what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" and the confessions of Faith above also notice this same Bible detail that these divisions in various kinds of Law are valid and one kind continues while another ends.

Paul is questioned in Acts 21 as to whether he is telling converted Christian Jews to no-longer circumcise their children and he denies it. (Notice they do not accuse him of telling gentiles that because there never was an OT or NT command for gentiles to do that so any accusation against Paul that he was telling newly converted Christian gentiles not to circumcise their children would be hollow.)

Hi Bob,

I believe you have misunderstood much of what I wrote to you.

In order for me to explain, I think we will need to agree to discuss in detail laws in addition to the ten commandments.

Please let me know if you decide you would like to do that, and if you want to expand the topic of this thread to include the possibility of discussing any law from Genesis to Deuteronomy.