Clarifying the Debate "basics" on Sabbath and the TEN Commandments

[Leaf473]

Were you able to read Heb 10:4-12 about animal sacrifices ended -- or do you find that still to be "Confusing"?

Does Hebrews say the laws themselves ended or that actions (sacrifices) associated with them? I believe earlier we agreed that Not Active was the way to describe those laws.

I believe you were asking about what law Paul was referring to in Romans 3 and 7. I think the context of those passages indicates that he is talking about the entire law.

if you had imagined that Paul did not write the book of Hebrews - would that change anything at all?

It might. Different writers sometimes use words differently.

you seem to have lost the point of your own statement above because in 1 Cor 7 we see that it is NOT the entire Law remaining - rather "God's commandments" remain and circumcision "does not matter".

1 Cor 7 is a different context than Romans 3 and 7.

In Heb 10 we see "animal sacrifices and offerings" is "taken away".

So it does not matter who you imagine wrote these chapters since they both give explicit examples of what they are talking about and they are both scripture AND your entire assumption of "entire law" fails as soon as Paul shows one continuing and one ending as he does in 1 Cor 7:19. The fact that he does that AGAIN in Heb 10 must makes it all the more obvious as to why this is so incredibly easy for all Bible scholars in all denominations.

Imo, Romans 3 and 7 and Hebrews 10 and 1 Cor 7 have become entangled in your mind. I think the best way to sort this all out is to look at a complete list.

 

[Leaf473]

@BobRyan

You don't have to come up with the list by yourself. You self-identify as SDA, do most SDA folks use the same list of Active laws?

There are SDA colleges and seminaries, I believe. SDA scholars have probably put together some kind of standard list. SDA's have been around for well over a hundred years. Someone must've made a list and put it up on the internet. If not, why not? Honest question.

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan said: ↑
Were you able to read Heb 10:4-12 about animal sacrifices ended -- or do you find that still to be "Confusing"?

Does Hebrews say the laws themselves ended or that actions (sacrifices) associated with them?

The text says "TAKES AWAY" - and no Christian group on planet earth today things we will be killing animals in heaven as a shadow pointing forward to another death of Christ to come.

I believe earlier we agreed that Not Active was the way to describe those laws.

We agreed that those laws were taken away because the text says "takes AWAY" in reference to animal sacrifices and offerings. Clearly if the Law was removed/taken-away it is also not active. Again a very obvious detail.

Dead people are not active - they are taken away from the land of the living according to the Bible.

When Paul says "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" by contrast to circumcision he is not saying "What matters is keeping LAWs that are taken away" else how could he contrast that with circumcision? Again a very obvious detail. Not even a little confusing.

You are leaving yourself no room at all to claim to be confused on this point.

 

[Leaf473]

The text says "TAKES AWAY" - and no Christian group on planet earth today things we will be killing animals in heaven as a shadow pointing forward to another death of Christ to come.

You may be interested to know that there are Hebrew Roots / Christian Messianic people who expect God to restore animal sacrifice at some point in the future.

Different people read the law and come away with very different ideas about what it says. That's why I'm asking about your list.

We agreed that those laws were taken away because the text says "takes AWAY" in reference to animal sacrifices and offerings. Clearly if the Law was removed/taken-away it is also not active. Again a very obvious detail.

Dead people are not active - they are taken away from the land of the living according to the Bible.

When Paul says "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" by contrast to circumcision he is not saying "What matters is keeping LAWs that are taken away" else how could he contrast that with circumcision? Again a very obvious detail. Not even a little confusing.

You are leaving yourself no room at all to claim to be confused on this point.

Sure, we can name the category Taken Away instead of Not Active, if you wish.

Do you have a complete list of the laws in the Taken Away category? Or has someone made a list you agree with or mostly agree with?

I'm trying to understand why people say that God has a set of laws He really wants us to keep, and then refuse to say what laws are in that set. Or not in that set.

I've done searches on the internet and not found anything. Why??? Is it a secret? Honest question. Maybe people feel they are to keep God's laws a secret from anyone who doesn't keep the Sabbath according to their understanding of it?

 

[BobRyan]

You may be interested to know that there are Hebrew Roots / Christian Messianic people who expect God to restore animal sacrifice

If that "is you" then maybe we can talk about why you think that.

For me - Heb 10:4-9 is pretty clear "takes AWAY the first to establish the second" where the "second" is the "ONCE FOR ALL TIME" sacrifice of Christ according to Heb 10.

You are free to explain how that is not "take away" in your mind.

Sure, we can name the category Taken Away instead of Not Active, if you wish.

That would then be a problem of your rendering for "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19 where you want to include animal sacrifices in that statement even though Paul has already informed us that those were "taken away", and even though in 1 Cor 7:19 he is contrasting "Keeping the Commandments of God" with circumcision by saying circumcision is nothing.

Do you have a complete list of the laws in the Taken Away category? Or has someone made a list you agree with or mostly agree with?

I do by category

1. Animal sacrifices ended - Heb 10:4-11 where Paul also did not need to enumerate each and every animal sacrifice to get the point across. We should no have to do that either.

2. OT Priesthood ceremonial services -- since Heb 7 say it ended.

3. Civil laws applicable only as commands "to the government" of a theocracy (such as the death sentence for gluttony) when that theocratic government no longer exists.

 

[Leaf473]

If that "is you" then maybe we can talk about why you think that.

No, I don't think God will bring back animal sacrifices. I think the scriptures as a whole teach against that. But there are some interesting prophecies that leave the possibility open, so I can see why some people think that.

One prophecy is this

Malachi 3
“Behold, I send my messenger, and he will prepare the way before me; and the Lord, whom you seek, will suddenly come to his temple; and the messenger of the covenant, whom you desire, behold, he comes!” says the Lord of Armies. 2 “But who can endure the day of his coming? And who will stand when he appears? For he is like a refiner’s fire, and like launderers’ soap; 3 and he will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver, and he will purify the sons of Levi, and refine them as gold and silver; and they shall offer to the Lord offerings in righteousness. 4 Then the offering of Judah and Jerusalem will be pleasant to the Lord, as in the days of old, and as in ancient years.

Purifying the sons of Levi? And maybe that just means some kind of spiritual offering. But then why single out Levi's sons? And what's this about "as in the days of old"?

Curiouser and curiouser. I don't think animal sacrifices are coming back, but if God does bring then back, then I'll say Well what do you know!

For me - Heb 10:4-9 is pretty clear "takes AWAY the first to establish the second" where the "second" is the "ONCE FOR ALL TIME" sacrifice of Christ according to Heb 10.

You are free to explain how that is not "take away" in your mind.

"Taken away" is clear, but what is being taken away?
Hebrews 1 God, having in the past spoken to the fathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 has at the end of these days spoken to us by his Son.

What was said to the fathers is compared to what is said to us by his Son.

What is being taken away?
Hebrews 10 "For the law..."
"You didn’t desire sacrifice and offering,
but you prepared a body for me."
So he takes away the first (the law, based on sacrifices and offerings) to establish the second (a body prepared).

That's how I interpret it, based on the context and theme of the entire book of Hebrews.

But if you see it as
He takes away one set of laws from Genesis to Deuteronomy
in order to establish another set of laws from Genesis to Deuteronomy,
then I ask if you can give a complete list of laws of one of those sets.

That would then be a problem of your rendering for "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19 where you want to include animal sacrifices in that statement even though Paul has already informed us that those were "taken away", and even though in 1 Cor 7:19 he is contrasting "Keeping the Commandments of God" with circumcision by saying circumcision is nothing.

Based on the context of 1 Cor 7, I don't think Paul is referring to a set of laws from Genesis to Deuteronomy as the commandments of God. That's because the word "commandment" occurs five times in that chapter. Four of them obviously refer to the instructions Paul is giving to the Corinthians about staying in the general situation that God has called them in. If we agree that verse 19 is about that as well, then the whole chapter fits together and flows smoothly.

Otherwise, the scriptures become a collection of sayings that we have to break apart and then put together differently, a sentence from here, a phrase from over there.

I do by category

1. Animal sacrifices ended - Heb 10:4-11 where Paul also did not need to enumerate each and every animal sacrifice to get the point across. We should no have to do that either.

2. OT Priesthood ceremonial services -- since Heb 7 say it ended.

3. Civil laws applicable only as commands "to the government" of a theocracy (such as the death sentence for gluttony) when that theocratic government no longer exists.

Yes, you do by category. And as a corollary, I think that would mean that you don't do by specific laws.

That answers the main issue I came on this thread to learn about. So I thank you for your answer, and I thank you also for your time.

Peace be with you!

 

[BobRyan]

No, I don't think God will bring back animal sacrifices. I think the scriptures as a whole teach against that.

Then how could you ever suggest that "what matters is keeping the Commandments of God" in 1 Cor 7:19 is saying "what matters is animal sacrifices as well as not taking God's name in vain" ?

How could 1 Cor 7 ever be turned into "circumcision is nothing but what matters is sacrificing animals and all the other commands like killing those who are gluttons"?? given your statement above? How could that level of confusion about 1 Cor 7 ever be inserted given your statement there?

 

[BobRyan]

For me - Heb 10:4-9 is pretty clear "takes AWAY the first to establish the second" where the "second" is the "ONCE FOR ALL TIME" sacrifice of Christ according to Heb 10.

You are free to explain how that is not "take away" in your mind

"Taken away" is clear, but what is being taken away?

You already answered it yourself. You said

Leaf473 said: ↑
No, I don't think God will bring back animal sacrifices. I think the scriptures as a whole teach against that.

That leaves "no room" for confusion when we read this in Heb 10

4 For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins. 5 Therefore, when He comes into the world, He says,

“You have not desired sacrifice and offering, But You have prepared a body for Me;
6 You have not taken pleasure in whole burnt offerings and offerings for sin.
7 Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come
(It is written of Me in the scroll of the book) To do Your will, O God.’”​

8 After saying above, “Sacrifices and offerings and whole burnt offerings and offerings for sin You have not desired, nor have You taken pleasure in them” (which are offered according to the Law), 9 then He said, “Behold, I have come to do Your will.” He takes away the first in order to establish the second. 10 By this will, we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all time.

"What" is being taken away is not even remotely unclear/vague there - and even you appear to get "the point" when you say:

Leaf473 said: ↑
No, I don't think God will bring back animal sacrifices. I think the scriptures as a whole teach against that.

So how in the world can you circle back to "unclear" again?

 

[Leaf473]

Then how could you ever suggest that "what matters is keeping the Commandments of God" in 1 Cor 7:19 is saying "what matters is animal sacrifices as well as not taking God's name in vain" ?

Did I suggest that or did you bring it up first? Imo, we rarely have absolute certainty about how a passage is to be interpreted. I think 1 Cor 7:19 is referring to continuing in the situation that God has called us. But I'm not absolutely certain.

Also, I may have been following out your train of thought with you.
When you put this in quotes:
"what matters is animal sacrifices as well as not taking God's name in vain"
are you quoting me?

How could 1 Cor 7 ever be turned into "circumcision is nothing but what matters is sacrificing animals and all the other commands like killing those who are gluttons"?? given your statement above? How could that level of confusion about 1 Cor 7 ever be inserted given your statement there?

"circumcision is nothing but what matters is sacrificing animals and all the other commands like killing those who are gluttons"
Again, are you quoting me?

I'm not sure why you frequently mention confusion. Talking about various ways of looking at the scriptures isn't confusion, imo. Sometimes I will follow what a person is saying to a conclusion, like saying if this verse means x, then y follows.

And of course, the big picture was I wanted to know if you had a list of specific laws, one that you would be willing to post. To that end, I was asking things to bring us to a place where I could get a clear answer to that question.

We can spend some time discussing various interpretations of passages like 1 Cor 7, if you wish. But please remember, I've got the answer to the main question I came on this thread for.

Peace be with you!

 

[Studyman]

For me - Heb 10:4-9 is pretty clear "takes AWAY the first to establish the second" where the "second" is the "ONCE FOR ALL TIME" sacrifice of Christ according to Heb 10.

You are free to explain how that is not "take away" in your mind



You already answered it yourself. You said



That leaves "no room" for confusion when we read this in Heb 10

4 For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins. 5 Therefore, when He comes into the world, He says,

“You have not desired sacrifice and offering, But You have prepared a body for Me;
6 You have not taken pleasure in whole burnt offerings and offerings for sin.
7 Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come
(It is written of Me in the scroll of the book) To do Your will, O God.’”​

8 After saying above, “Sacrifices and offerings and whole burnt offerings and offerings for sin You have not desired, nor have You taken pleasure in them” (which are offered according to the Law), 9 then He said, “Behold, I have come to do Your will.” He takes away the first in order to establish the second. 10 By this will, we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all time.

"What" is being taken away is not even remotely unclear/vague there - and even you appear to get "the point" when you say:
So how in the world can you circle back to "unclear" again?

How true BR.

And consider the follow which is written for our admonition.

Jer. 7:22 For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices:

23 But this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey my voice, (Like Abraham) and I will be your God, and ye shall be my people: and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you, (Like Abraham) that it may be well unto you.

24 But they hearkened not, nor inclined their ear, but walked in the counsels and in the imagination of their evil heart, and went backward, and not forward.

So they Transgressed, prompting God to "ADD" a Law "Because of Transgression". A Priesthood "After the Order of Aaron" which including Sacrificial "Works of the Law" for Justification/forgiveness.

A Law Abraham didn't have. He was justified "Apart" from this Law.

This "LAW" or Covenant with Levi, that Abraham didn't have, which foreshadowed the Sacrifice the Christ would make for men, was Temporary from it's creation, as surely God knew that "After those days" there would come a New High Priest "After the Order of Melchizedek". It is this Priesthood Covenant with Levi that was replaced with a New Covenant, and it was the Sacrificial "Works of this Law" that became obsolete. Not God's Definition of Sin as so many "Who come in Christ's Name, falsely proclaim.

Good post.

 

[Leaf473]

For me - Heb 10:4-9 is pretty clear "takes AWAY the first to establish the second" where the "second" is the "ONCE FOR ALL TIME" sacrifice of Christ according to Heb 10.

You are free to explain how that is not "take away" in your mind



You already answered it yourself. You said



That leaves "no room" for confusion when we read this in Heb 10

4 For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins. 5 Therefore, when He comes into the world, He says,

“You have not desired sacrifice and offering, But You have prepared a body for Me;
6 You have not taken pleasure in whole burnt offerings and offerings for sin.
7 Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come
(It is written of Me in the scroll of the book) To do Your will, O God.’”​

8 After saying above, “Sacrifices and offerings and whole burnt offerings and offerings for sin You have not desired, nor have You taken pleasure in them” (which are offered according to the Law), 9 then He said, “Behold, I have come to do Your will.” He takes away the first in order to establish the second. 10 By this will, we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all time.

"What" is being taken away is not even remotely unclear/vague there - and even you appear to get "the point" when you say:



So how in the world can you circle back to "unclear" again?

After having some time to look at Hebrews with some good Bible study tools, I think the best interpretation of what is being take away is the law.

But if you think something different, Cool! If you think it means:
He takes away one set of laws from Genesis to Deuteronomy
in order to establish another set of laws from Genesis to Deuteronomy,

then I'm really interested in which specific laws be believe were taken away, and which ones remain.

But I understand you to be saying that you don't want to talk about specific laws. What shall we do next?

 

[Leaf473]

Hi @Studyman,

Good to see you again!

 

[SabbathBlessings]

After having some time to look at Hebrews with some good Bible study tools, I think the best interpretation of what is being take away is the law.

But if you think something different, Cool! If you think it means:
He takes away one set of laws from Genesis to Deuteronomy
in order to establish another set of laws from Genesis to Deuteronomy,

then I'm really interested in which specific laws be believe were taken away, and which ones remain.

But I understand you to be saying that you don't want to talk about specific laws. What shall we do next?

By the time you figure out the laws, Jesus is going to have come! God's laws are eternal Psalms 89:34 and placed in the ark of the covenant in God's Most holy of His Temple, which He also has in heaven Revelations 11:19. The law of ordinances (Moses) ended with Jesus as our perfect sacrifice Col 2:14. We should eat foods God deemed "clean" and avoid foods God calls an abomination Isaiah 65:4 and the greatest commandments Jesus quoted from the OT are expressed when we obey God's Ten commandments (1-4 loving God, 5-10 loving our neighbor).

God bless and Happy Sabbath!

 

[Leaf473]

By the time you figure out the laws, Jesus is going to have come! God's laws are eternal Psalms 89:34 and placed in the ark of the covenant in God's Most holy of His Temple, which He also has in heaven Revelations 11:19. The law of ordinances (Moses) ended with Jesus as our perfect sacrifice Col 2:14. We should eat foods God deemed "clean" and avoid foods God calls an abomination Isaiah 65:4 and the greatest commandments Jesus quoted from the OT are expressed when we obey God's Ten commandments (1-4 loving God, 5-10 loving our neighbor).

God bless and Happy Sabbath!

Hi SabbathBlessings,

I'm glad you stopped by!

I like this part:

By the time you figure out the laws, Jesus is going to have come!

Or by the time someone posts a complete list!

But you've come pretty close, here.

What I see is:
The Ten Commandments
Eat only clean foods
And I'm not sure if you're adding two more commandments (what Jesus calls the greatest and second greatest) or not.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Hi SabbathBlessings,

I'm glad you stopped by!

I like this part:

Or by the time someone posts a complete list!

But you've come pretty close, here.

What I see is:
The Ten Commandments
Eat only clean foods
And I'm not sure if you're adding two more commandments (what Jesus calls the greatest and second greatest) or not.

Hi Leaf!

Pretty much all right and wrong doing will fall under God's laws. Loving God with all our hearts is expressed when we only worship God, not bow to idols, use His name with sacredness and keep holy His Sabbath day. We express loving our neighbor when we are truthful, don't hurt them with physical or mental harm (flirting with their spouse, coveting what they have, helping them stay alive and healthy). So yes we should obey the greatest commandments.

I think if you focus on the right thing to do by obeying God, keeping yourself healthy by eating the foods God told us are good for us and expressing love to Jesus and our neighbor you should be fine. Most of the things you mentioned previously in the law of Moses like the tassels is for remembering God's laws. Remember, God's laws reflect the very character of God. God's laws are written in our hearts and when we obey them we are being more Christ-like which is what the bible is all about. We are told to follow Jesus....

God bless

 

[Leaf473]

Hi Leaf!

Pretty much all right and wrong doing will fall under God's laws. Loving God with all our hearts is expressed when we only worship God, not bow to idols, use His name with sacredness and keep holy His Sabbath day. We express loving our neighbor when we are truthful, don't hurt them with physical or mental harm (flirting with their spouse, coveting what they have, helping them stay alive and healthy). So yes we should obey the greatest commandments.

I think if you focus on the right thing to do by obeying God, keeping yourself healthy by eating the foods God told us are good for us and expressing love to Jesus and our neighbor you should be fine. Most of the things you mentioned previously in the law of Moses like the tassels is for remembering God's laws. Remember, God's laws reflect the very character of God. God's laws are written in our hearts and when we obey them we are being more Christ-like which is what the bible is all about. We are told to follow Jesus....

God bless

So far we have, then:

The Ten Commandments

Eat only clean foods

You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your might.

You shall love your neighbor as yourself.

Is that your complete list?

 

[SabbathBlessings]

So far we have, then:

The Ten Commandments

Eat only clean foods

You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your might.

You shall love your neighbor as yourself.

Is that your complete list?

What do you feel is missing that would not be under one of these categories?

 

[Leaf473]

What do you feel is missing that would not be under one of these categories?

I don't think a reasonable complete list can be built. It sounds like you do, so that's why I'm asking if that's your complete list.
(and please note, I'm talking about laws from Genesis to Deuteronomy )

---------------------------------------------

Some people say tithing is a law for today. Is that on your list?

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I don't think a reasonable complete list can be built. It sounds like you do, so that's why I'm asking if that's your complete list.
(and please note, I'm talking about laws from Genesis to Deuteronomy )

---------------------------------------------

Some people say tithing is a law for today. Is that on your list?

Yes, tithing is on my list. Paying 10% back to God on our increase.

 

[Leaf473]

Yes, tithing is on my list. Paying 10% back to God on our increase.

Cool! Then we have:


The Ten Commandments

Eat only clean foods

You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your might.

You shall love your neighbor as yourself.

Paying 10% back to God on our increase.
Now, this last one, is there a scripture reference for that in Genesis to Deuteronomy?