Clapping During Song

[Apollos1]

Crawfish - I think both of you have a fairly narrow view of what it means to applaud.

Ok - tell me what it means to you. Then tell me what it means to God.

As for those who think applause is a "joyful noise", give me some context....okay? (I prefer firecrackers myself - these drive away the evil spirits...)

 

[crawfish]

Crawfish - I think both of you have a fairly narrow view of what it means to applaud.

Ok - tell me what it means to you. Then tell me what it means to God.

As for those who think applause is a "joyful noise", give me some context....okay? (I prefer firecrackers myself - these drive away the evil spirits...)

It can be a means of honoring somebody - such as in a graduation ceremony.

It is a means of expressing agreement or support, in the same way as shouting "amen".

It is a means of keeping rhythm and of expressing your feelings as you sing and participate in music.

God looks at the heart. Read the SOTM; you'll note that the strict following of the law is meaningless if the intention behind it is not right. When I applaud, God knows if I'm doing it for the "right" or "wrong" reasons.

Again, this is a cultural issue. While 50 years ago it was considered crass behavior and would NOT be appropriate for worship, it is the norm today and is.

 

[jmacvols]

There are verses talking about making a joyful noise unto the Lord. Clapping is a noise. So is playing a musical instrument. If there is joy in the heart of the one clapping or playing the instrument, would not God be glorified?

I realize this passage is in Psalms, and it is thus "old testament" but if we truly believe the Bible we can't just cut and paste what we want out of each book. I realize that there are things Jesus specifically brought over from the Old covenant and then those that he did not mention, but when it comes to things that are not mentioned in the New covenant, wouldn't you think it was assumed that it was still a proper style of worship? If not, it would have been addressed. In fact, if Jesus wanted to expound on something, he did, for clarification. But the issue of instruments/clapping was not brought up by Jesus or the apostles, so therefore, it must not have been an issue or else it WOULD have been brought up.

Noise isn't just singing, folks.

As you pointed out, you're taking your argument from the OT. Christ took the OT out of the way and it is not binding upon Christians today, Christ's NT is binding. The NT authorizes us to sing, nothing more, we are not to go beyond what is written, 1 Cor 4:6. One cannot go back to the OT and pick and choose what they like and ignore what they do not like, [Psa 66:13-15]. The Galatians went back to the OT law to practice circumcision, Paul told them for going back to the OT, they had fallen from grace and were debtors to keep the whole law, Gal 5:1ff.

 

[jmacvols]

I did not say that at all!
Culture might determine modesty.
On a visit to South Africa there was a group of women walking around in long dresses sleeves, collars and umbrellas. They looked weird on a hot summer day. They where part of a English Church established during the Victorian period and then abandoned by the missionaries. They taught that you must dress modestly and put Western Victorian rules of modesty on them which became part of their religious believes and doctrine.

I had a missionary friend to Thailand that when he first went there was shocked and embarrass by the attire of the Christian women. They wore long dresses with slits up each side so you could see their panties on some. At the men’s business meeting he finial had the courage to talk about it. He said, “We need to talk about our Christian women’s attire!” All the men were happy he finally wanted to bring it up and were relieved he brought the subject up first. They begin by saying how shocked and embarrassed they were about the way his wife dressed. She had actually worn a dress that you could see some cleavage. Only the most risqué women would ware something that showed any part of her upper body and cleavage was way too much.

You say culture might determine modesty, should it?

I like your story, if people are doing wrong then they should be taught properly. Many won't agree with me on this, but if one is not offering his best to the Lord, he should be taught that he should.

 

[jmacvols]

True, but then the believer isn't actually under the law, much less some law that says "thou shalt not clap thine hands".

God said to sing, that rules out everything but singing. God does not have to say "thou shalt not clap". It's the law of inclusion and exlusion, when God said sing that includes singing and excludes anything else. We're not to go beyond that which is written, 1 Cor 4:6. God did not have to make a long list of things not to do, He simply says what to do and that eliminates everything else. An example that has been used on this topic before. You tell a mechanic to change the oil and oil filter in your car. Three hours later you return to get your car and the mechanic hands you a bill for $3000.00. You look at the itemized bill and see where he changed the oil and oil filter, but he also changed the tires, brakes, rotors, spark plugs, filters, pumps etc, etc. Are you obligated to pay the $3000.00? No, for all you authorized was an oil and oil filter change, everything else the mechanic did was done without your authorization. You did not have to make a long, long list of everything the mechanic was not to do, you just authorized him what you want and that eliminates him doing anything other than what you authorized.

And singing was "ordained by God"? Where did God "ordain" singing in church? Which songs were ordained by God? Does the bible refer to your songbook?

Eph 5:19, Col 3:16. A songbook aids in singing, it adds nothing to what God said which is 'sing'.

It doesn't exist where there is no law.

But a law does exists, God's law.

If a person drinks wine without offence, and you manage to convince him that it's sinful, then it will be sin for him.

The bible condemns drunkeness...social drinking is with offence

No, but the gospel isn't "thou shalt not clap" or "thou shalt not expose thine breasts".

The NT authorizes only singing, not clapping and it condemns nakedness/shamefacedness.

No. So is there a particular reason you don't dance like a madman like king David did? As far as I know, God has never un-ordained that. Same goes for eating locusts and quoting pagan greek philosophers etc.

I don't dance like David as I don't offer animal sacrifices like David, Psa 66:13-15. Christ took the OT out of the way, [Col 2:14, Heb 8] so David is not an example of NT worship.

 

[jmacvols]

So what exactly has God asked for, do you think?

Sing.

What makes you think that a God who decided to come here as a man, washed the feet of his often ignorant disciples, died slowly and stark naked on a cross, a God who gave Himself for you while you were still a sinner, a God who looks to the heart, a God who uses the love evil people have for their children to illuminate the love He (who IS LOVE) has for His children, a God to whom your rihgteousness is as filthy rags, a God who has already taken your sin as far from you as the east is from the west - should approve or disapprove of your worship based on whether or not you clap your hands?

Jn 4:24 God is to be worshipped in spirit and in truth. THis eliminiates me worshipping God as I like but worship Him as He has directed. From Col 3:17 the phrase "in the nems of the Lord, means doing as He has authorized. Unforunately many have tried to make worship entertaining to themselves, it is "human centered and not God honoring".

http://www.christiancourier.com/articles/read/philippians_31ff_regulated_worship

http://www.christiancourier.com/articles/read/is_christian_worship_regulated_by_new_testament_law

 

[HisLittleHazelnut]

God said to sing, that rules out everything but singing. God does not have to say "thou shalt not clap". It's the law of inclusion and exlusion, when God said sing that includes singing and excludes anything else. We're not to go beyond that which is written, 1 Cor 4:6. God did not have to make a long list of things not to do, He simply says what to do and that eliminates everything else. An example that has been used on this topic before. You tell a mechanic to change the oil and oil filter in your car. Three hours later you return to get your car and the mechanic hands you a bill for $3000.00. You look at the itemized bill and see where he changed the oil and oil filter, but he also changed the tires, brakes, rotors, spark plugs, filters, pumps etc, etc. Are you obligated to pay the $3000.00? No, for all you authorized was an oil and oil filter change, everything else the mechanic did was done without your authorization. You did not have to make a long, long list of everything the mechanic was not to do, you just authorized him what you want and that eliminates him doing anything other than what you authorized.



Eph 5:19, Col 3:16. A songbook aids in singing, it adds nothing to what God said which is 'sing'.



But a law does exists, God's law.



The bible condemns drunkeness...social drinking is with offence



The NT authorizes only singing, not clapping and it condemns nakedness/shamefacedness.



I don't dance like David as I don't offer animal sacrifices like David, Psa 66:13-15. Christ took the OT out of the way, [Col 2:14, Heb 8] so David is not an example of NT worship.

Christ said himself that he had not come to abolish (to take away) the Law but rather to fulfill it. To abolish and to fulfill are two entirely different things. Abolishing means to take away whatever used to be. According to your argument, we had pretty much not have the OT in our Bibles. Psalms is outside of the Law, the Law meaning the Pentateuch. Jesus fulfilled the Pentateuch and the Prophets, but he said nothing about how to praise him. He did not once mention singing. Nor did he mention instruments or clapping. But neither did he specifically exclude any of these things.
Paul brought up singing as a command. But there was no command against anything accompanying the singing.

 

[bling]

You say culture might determine modesty, should it?

I like your story, if people are doing wrong then they should be taught properly. Many won't agree with me on this, but if one is not offering his best to the Lord, he should be taught that he should.

God seems to avoid the problems that would result from Him dictating a particular culture dress. Every culture that I know of has an understanding of “modesty”, if you are immodest you are trying to arouse sexual emotions in others to be fleshly sexually attractive. That seems to be the definition scripture uses for immodest (dress or behavior). Did the fig leaves or the skins cover Eve’s breasts? Was Jesus sinning by being naked on the cross? Think of all the exceptions God would have to address if He gave us specific attire that we must wear. I have worked as or with the mental hospitals, retirement homes, doctors, emergency workers, rescue workers, and children, so what is modest dress in those situations. God wants us to be modest in our dress, but has not defined specifically the clothing for modest dress.
Do we just hate to think?
Do we love to follow rules and not have freedom?
If we can not determine what is “modest” for a particular time, place and group of people, how are we going to resolve; “how we should Love”? Or who is a brother?

 

[bling]

I like your story, if people are doing wrong then they should be taught properly. Many won't agree with me on this, but if one is not offering his best to the Lord, he should be taught that he should.

Who in the story was doing wrong???

 

[jmacvols]

Christ said himself that he had not come to abolish (to take away) the Law but rather to fulfill it. To abolish and to fulfill are two entirely different things. Abolishing means to take away whatever used to be. According to your argument, we had pretty much not have the OT in our Bibles. Psalms is outside of the Law, the Law meaning the Pentateuch. Jesus fulfilled the Pentateuch and the Prophets, but he said nothing about how to praise him. He did not once mention singing. Nor did he mention instruments or clapping. But neither did he specifically exclude any of these things.
Paul brought up singing as a command. But there was no command against anything accompanying the singing.

Col 2:14 "took it out of the way"
Christ took the OT out of the way by not by destroying it but by fulfillment...when Christ fulfilled it, that took it out of the way. If Christ has not fulfilled the OT, all of it is still binding upon us today.

In Jn 10:34, Jesus in a discourse with the Jews said "it is not written in your law, 'I said ye are gods'"? Jesus is quoting from Psalms 82:6 calling Psalms "law". All the OT can be considered law. Is Psalms 66:13-15 binding today?

Doing anything in addition to singing is not singing as Paul said, it would be singing plus something else.

 

[jmacvols]

God seems to avoid the problems that would result from Him dictating a particular culture dress. Every culture that I know of has an understanding of “modesty”, if you are immodest you are trying to arouse sexual emotions in others to be fleshly sexually attractive. That seems to be the definition scripture uses for immodest (dress or behavior). Did the fig leaves or the skins cover Eve’s breasts? Was Jesus sinning by being naked on the cross? Think of all the exceptions God would have to address if He gave us specific attire that we must wear. I have worked as or with the mental hospitals, retirement homes, doctors, emergency workers, rescue workers, and children, so what is modest dress in those situations. God wants us to be modest in our dress, but has not defined specifically the clothing for modest dress.
Do we just hate to think?
Do we love to follow rules and not have freedom?
If we can not determine what is “modest” for a particular time, place and group of people, how are we going to resolve; “how we should Love”? Or who is a brother?

I have no argument that people should dress modestly. All I am saying is that in worship to God they should were their best. I think it would be immodest to wear old work clothes to a worship service.

 

[jmacvols]

Who in the story was doing wrong???

I would say the women who were wearing revealing clothing and the men for being afraid to say anything about it.

 

[holo]

God said to sing, that rules out everything but singing.

No, of course it doesn't. God didn't ordain you to use the internet either.

God does not have to say "thou shalt not clap". It's the law of inclusion and exlusion, when God said sing that includes singing and excludes anything else.

No, there's no such law, and even if there was, we wouldn't be subject to it. God has certainly not given us such a law.

We're not to go beyond that which is written, 1 Cor 4:6.

You're applying that verse in an extremely creative manner which is not at all in line with the rest of what the bible teaches. For example, that God looks to the heart. Or that we are not under the law, but yet you've made up a law, about clapping, of all things!

God did not have to make a long list of things not to do, He simply says what to do and that eliminates everything else. An example that has been used on this topic before. You tell a mechanic to change the oil and oil filter in your car. Three hours later you return to get your car and the mechanic hands you a bill for $3000.00. You look at the itemized bill and see where he changed the oil and oil filter, but he also changed the tires, brakes, rotors, spark plugs, filters, pumps etc, etc. Are you obligated to pay the $3000.00? No, for all you authorized was an oil and oil filter change, everything else the mechanic did was done without your authorization. You did not have to make a long, long list of everything the mechanic was not to do, you just authorized him what you want and that eliminates him doing anything other than what you authorized.

We're not God's mechanics, we are His children.

Do you have kids? Have you ordained a special way for them to honour you? Can they only give you drawings that don't contain the colour green, for example, or else you won't accept it?

Eph 5:19, Col 3:16. A songbook aids in singing, it adds nothing to what God said which is 'sing'.

Clapping aids in singing, it adds nothing to what God has said which is 'sing".

But a law does exists, God's law.

Yes, and we aren't under it. We are dead to it. The law is the power of sin. So since we are free from the law, we are also free from sin. You can still try to live according to the law, of course, if you want. But you will only find that the law is still the power of sin, and that when the commandment comes, sin springs to life, and you end up condemned.

The bible condemns drunkeness...social drinking is with offence

It is to some. Others will take offense if you don't drink. For example, it's custom in a lot of southern european countries to serve a little liqour before the food, or wine that goes with it. Refusing it is offensive to the host.

If it is sin to you, then it is sin to you.

The NT authorizes only singing, not clapping and it condemns nakedness/shamefacedness.

The NT doesn't authorize stuff. The NT isn't a law book. It's a testament. It's the gospel accounts, it's the gospel revealed, it's personal letter with teaching from Paul and Peter etc, as well as prophesies. It is not some sort of rule book. If you read it as a rule book, you're reading it completely wrong. And if it was a rule book, it would be the most unclear and least sensible and hard to dechipher rule book ever written.

 

[holo]

Sing.

And He won't accept anything else...? Are you for real? Why is it you think God is so weird about stuff like that? Jesus compared God to earthly fathers and said "even if you who are evil know to give your children good things..." - but yet, you apparently believe that God has these weird quirks about singing and clapping. It doesn't figure, and it certainly doesn't resemble any kind of father/child relationship known to man. It looks more like a psychopatic dictators demands from his subjects, like when Chairman Mao ordered peasants to rip the grass out of the ground.

Jn 4:24 God is to be worshipped in spirit and in truth. THis eliminiates me worshipping God as I like but worship Him as He has directed.

Neither "Spirit" nor "truth" are synonymous with "song". There is certainly no Spirit or truth in reducing worship to some sort of religious excercise in fear of offending some funny quirky distant God. How on earth do you reconcile your view of God with the God who came as a man and died naked on a cross? How do you reconcile it with the man who let a harlot wash His feet with tears and dry them with her hair?

 

[holo]

I have no argument that people should dress modestly. All I am saying is that in worship to God they should were their best. I think it would be immodest to wear old work clothes to a worship service.

Do you think that would offend God?

 

[Molal]

I don't want this to turn into flaming, baiting, etc.

After reading the thread, it seems that I should have no personal issue with clapping, etc. during the sermon. I also understand why some people have issue with it, therefore, in those instances it would be good not to aid your brother/sister stumble.

 

[bling]

I have no argument that people should dress modestly. All I am saying is that in worship to God they should were their best. I think it would be immodest to wear old work clothes to a worship service.

I will give the person the benefit of the doubt for what they were wearing. How do you think the other priests at the temple would have greeted the fellow priest that showed up late, haft dressed, dirty and bloody, if that priest on his way to the temple, had stopped on the road to help the man that was left half dead, gotten dirty and loaned him half his clothes?

 

[bling]

I would say the women who were wearing revealing clothing and the men for being afraid to say anything about it.

Does your wife/mother ever wear clothes that show any of her skin below her neck?
That could be reveling to someone in the fellowship that was from Thailand.
Reveling is a very relative term. What some consider reveling is normal dress to others. Long pants, sleeveless dresses, showing your angles, and showing your face on a woman was/is consider “reveling” to some.
How far down can the neckline go and how high up can the slit in the dress go before it is sin?

 

[HisLittleHazelnut]

I have no argument that people should dress modestly. All I am saying is that in worship to God they should were their best. I think it would be immodest to wear old work clothes to a worship service.

I work third shift, and get off at 8:00 AM Sunday morning.
I wear "old work clothes" to church the weeks I am working because I just got off work and barely have time to eat breakfast before I have to turn around and go to church for the service, which starts at 9:00.

Thus said, you basically called me immodest because I don't have time to change between work and church.

 

[HisLittleHazelnut]

Does your wife/mother ever wear clothes that show any of her skin below her neck?
That could be reveling to someone in the fellowship that was from Thailand.
Reveling is a very relative term. What some consider reveling is normal dress to others. Long pants, sleeveless dresses, showing your angles, and showing your face on a woman was/is consider “reveling” to some.
How far down can the neckline go and how high up can the slit in the dress go before it is sin?

Hah, when I grew up my family's rules were that collars had to go to my chin, and I could only wear ankle length skirts and longs sleeve blouses. If I chose to wear a mid-calf length skirt, I wore boots with it.

And I'm 25.