Clapping During Song

[holo]

But what does "loving God" require of us?
Jn 14:15,21; Jn 15:10.

If we love God we show it by keeping His commandments. Is one loving God if he is not keeping God's commandments....if he is going beyond what God has commanded? If one is not doing what God has commanded, is what he doing then being done in spirit and in truth?

Spirit and truth obviously doesn't have to do with clapping your hands, raising them, or leaving them in your pockets. God hasn't commanded us one particular way to sit or stand in a meeting. No wonder, as such regulations have absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the new covenant

So culture, not God's word, determines morals?

It's not about morals, it's only about culture. In some cultures an exposed breast is probably no more offensive than raising your hands is in ours. No doubt you would get a problem if you saw exposed breasts, but that's just because you're a dirty-minded sex-crazed Westerner

 

[jmacvols]

Spirit and truth obviously doesn't have to do with clapping your hands, raising them, or leaving them in your pockets. God hasn't commanded us one particular way to sit or stand in a meeting. No wonder, as such regulations have absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the new covenant

Spirt and truth have to do with God has said to do. What is truth--thy word is truth and if God's word says sing, then others things (clapping) go beyond his word(truth).

It's not about morals, it's only about culture. In some cultures an exposed breast is probably no more offensive than raising your hands is in ours. No doubt you would get a problem if you saw exposed breasts, but that's just because you're a dirty-minded sex-crazed Westerner

So you believe the bible does not condemn women going around half naked? How about fully naked? This has nothing to do with morality? Why did Adam and Eve sew figs together to cover themselves? Gen 2:25 cf Gen 3:7.

Be not conformed to this world, but be ye transformed, Rom 12:2.

 

[holo]

Spirt and truth have to do with God has said to do. What is truth--thy word is truth and if God's word says sing, then others things (clapping) go beyond his word(truth).

Yes, but God hasn't told me to sing, or that I shouldn't clap in a meeting. He hasn't even told me to attend meetings.

So you believe the bible does not condemn women going around half naked?

Correct. The bible doesn't say that. Not that it needs to, either, because unlike Israel under the old covenant, or sinners in general, we're not in a relationship with God that revolves around our clothing or lack thereof, or any other such thing.

There's nothing in the bible condemning meat or wine either, but both things would be sinful to someone who partakes of it "with offense", as Paul puts it.

If you should run completely out of common sense to the degree that you go to church naked, there's still the Holy Spirit, tasked with guiding and teaching you. I dunno why you would have to look for a bible verse about stuff like that...

Why did Adam and Eve sew figs together to cover themselves?

Because they were ashamed. They were the prototype of humans being "in Adam", to use Paul's words again. I, however, am not in Adam, and neither the clothes on my back nor any other thing I do, wear, think, say or make is motivated by shame. Jesus took all my shame on the cross, and I'm not going to claim it back

Be not conformed to this world, but be ye transformed, Rom 12:2.

Exactly! This world is hung up on details and trying to please God through religious exercise, like bowing in a certain direction when they pray, or eating only certain types of food, or -indeed- making up regulations on hand clapping in church. As if that's what God is after.

 

[holo]

Spirt and truth have to do with God has said to do. What is truth--thy word is truth and if God's word says sing, then others things (clapping) go beyond his word(truth).

Yes, but God hasn't told me to sing, or that I shouldn't clap in a meeting. He hasn't even told me to attend meetings. If you're thinking about the "do not forsake the assembly" verse, I can assure you that I'm not forsaking the assembly. But assembling with brothers and sisters in Christ is not synonymous with attending meetings.

So you believe the bible does not condemn women going around half naked?

Correct. The bible doesn't say that. Not that it needs to, either, because unlike Israel under the old covenant, or sinners in general, we're not in a relationship with God that revolves around our clothing or lack thereof, or any other such thing.

There's nothing in the bible condemning meat or wine either, but both things would be sinful to someone who partakes of it "with offense", as Paul puts it.

If you should run completely out of common sense to the degree that you go to church naked, there's still the Holy Spirit, tasked with guiding and teaching you. I dunno why you would have to look for a bible verse about stuff like that...

Why did Adam and Eve sew figs together to cover themselves?

Because they were ashamed. They were the prototype of humans being "in Adam", to use Paul's words again. I, however, am not in Adam, and neither the clothes on my back nor any other thing I do, wear, think, say or make is motivated by shame. Jesus took all my shame on the cross, and I'm not going to claim it back

Be not conformed to this world, but be ye transformed, Rom 12:2.

Exactly! This world is hung up on details and trying to please God through religious exercise, like bowing in a certain direction when they pray, or eating only certain types of food, or -indeed- making up regulations on hand clapping in church. As if that's what God is after.

 

[crawfish]

The question is this; is one glorifying God when they are not doing as God has directed? No one can glorify God while acting in disobedience to His will.

But that's not what you said. You implied that you could only glorify God by doing EXACTLY what He told you. Since most of my life is spent doing things God didn't tell me to do, in ways he didn't authorize - I work on a computer, drive a car, watch football, etc. - does that mean I cannot glorify God in those things?

I don't know what you mean by "physical movements", dancing maybe?

Sure. In some cultures, dancing is as intimately associated with singing as songbooks are to CofC's. One simply does not stand still and sing.

What if it were part of their culture that the women are topless, should they be taught to stop this?

Not necessarily. For our culture, topless is sexual and immodest; in some tribal cultures it is so common as to be unremarkable. If and when those cultures join the "civilized" world, they will conform to its habits. But why introduce new sin and shame in a place where it didn't exist before?

It's a mistake to define the eternal by our immediate culture. What is modest today would be immodest 50 years ago. What is acceptable today may not be acceptable here in 50 more years. And, the way we do things today that seems so right would be foreign to the members of the first century church.

 

[Izdaari Eristikon]

We very often clap along with songs in my church, and sometimes the worship leader encourages us to. We often raise up hands too, and sometimes we even dance. But my church is AoG, a much different tradition from CoC. So long as you're praising God in a way that works for you, it's all good!

 

[HisLittleHazelnut]

I grew up CofC.

Here's my take on clapping:

God gave you hands. Hands can clap. Hands need nothing more than your own body making them clap... no instrument needed (not that I am against instruments, mind you.) If you want to clap, clap to the glory of God.

 

[spamking]

It's just really odd sometimes to sing "I stand and lift up my hands" sitting down . . . I don't necessarily lift up my hands, but most of the time the entire congregation will stand.

Our culture views clapping as a celebratory act, or an act of approval. Much like an "Amen!" from the congregation IMO.

Would God not want us to celebrate our relationship with Him?

Would God not want us to "celebrate" during worship?

As far as culture determining morals vs. the word of God goes, while I think they are related I think you can have morals, but not necessarily be a Christian. IMO it isn't the churches responsibility to play "morals police", the church is here to spread the word of God to the world. Following the teachings of Christ will definitely lead to a good moral life, but consider this. We don't worship the same way our grandparents did and more than likely our grandchildren will worship differently than we do. Cultures change. But God never will.

 

[jmacvols]

Yes, but God hasn't told me to sing, or that I shouldn't clap in a meeting. He hasn't even told me to attend meetings. If you're thinking about the "do not forsake the assembly" verse, I can assure you that I'm not forsaking the assembly. But assembling with brothers and sisters in Christ is not synonymous with attending meetings.

Singing is commanded. When God says to sing, that eliminates doing anything else per the law of inclusion and exclusion. And we are not to forsake the assemby.

Correct. The bible doesn't say that. Not that it needs to, either, because unlike Israel under the old covenant, or sinners in general, we're not in a relationship with God that revolves around our clothing or lack thereof, or any other such thing.

Shamefacedness is a sin.

There's nothing in the bible condemning meat or wine either, but both things would be sinful to someone who partakes of it "with offense", as Paul puts it.

The bible does not approve social drinking.

If you should run completely out of common sense to the degree that you go to church naked, there's still the Holy Spirit, tasked with guiding and teaching you. I dunno why you would have to look for a bible verse about stuff like that...

Because they were ashamed. They were the prototype of humans being "in Adam", to use Paul's words again. I, however, am not in Adam, and neither the clothes on my back nor any other thing I do, wear, think, say or make is motivated by shame. Jesus took all my shame on the cross, and I'm not going to claim it back

Nakedness is a sin. Man even has laws against "indecent exposure".

Exactly! This world is hung up on details and trying to please God through religious exercise, like bowing in a certain direction when they pray, or eating only certain types of food, or -indeed- making up regulations on hand clapping in church. As if that's what God is after.

Paul told Timothy to "take heed to the doctrine", which is the opposite of what you say above. What you say above is going by opinion and feelings. As long as one agrees with your opinions and feelings, that person is OK with you?

 

[jmacvols]

But that's not what you said. You implied that you could only glorify God by doing EXACTLY what He told you. Since most of my life is spent doing things God didn't tell me to do, in ways he didn't authorize - I work on a computer, drive a car, watch football, etc. - does that mean I cannot glorify God in those things?

If one is not doing what God said then he is sinning, sin is transgression of God's law, so is one gloryfying God by not doing what God has said? In what way is working on a computer transgressing God's law? I am working on a computer now on christianforums. I have been commanded to go to all the world and teach the gospel, I was not told specifically how to go, that is a matter of expediency, but I am going by computer right now.

Sure. In some cultures, dancing is as intimately associated with singing as songbooks are to CofC's. One simply does not stand still and sing.

Sonbooks add nothing to singing, they are an aid, they get everyone on the same page singing the same lyrics, so things are done decently and in order. Dancing is adding to what God said, no where did God authorize for the church to sing and dance. The and dance part was added by men.

Not necessarily. For our culture, topless is sexual and immodest; in some tribal cultures it is so common as to be unremarkable. If and when those cultures join the "civilized" world, they will conform to its habits. But why introduce new sin and shame in a place where it didn't exist before?

Sin does not exist in some places?? Are people in the "uncivilized" places saved apart from God's word, the gospel?

It's a mistake to define the eternal by our immediate culture. What is modest today would be immodest 50 years ago. What is acceptable today may not be acceptable here in 50 more years. And, the way we do things today that seems so right would be foreign to the members of the first century church.

You come across as being very fixated on what culture does and wants. Does culture come before and above God's word? Is whats being done now or 50 years ago acceptable with God's word? Does passing of time change what God's has said?

 

[jmacvols]

I grew up CofC.

Here's my take on clapping:

God gave you hands. Hands can clap. Hands need nothing more than your own body making them clap... no instrument needed (not that I am against instruments, mind you.) If you want to clap, clap to the glory of God.

God gave us everything we have and we are to use those things as He would have us, we are not to abuse those things by doing or not doing what God has said. If God did not ask for clapping, would clapping bring glory to Him? or in other words, is doing something God has not asked for bring glory to Him? If so, how?

 

[spamking]

God gave us everything we have and we are to use those things as He would have us, we are not to abuse those things by doing or not doing what God has said. If God did not ask for clapping, would clapping bring glory to Him? or in other words, is doing something God has not asked for bring glory to Him? If so, how?

Do all that you do to the glory of God . . . all. Not just this or that, but all. God asks for us to love and worship Him. I think we are able to bring glory to Him in every aspect of our lives.

Well, except for snoring maybe . . . it might not bug God, but it bugs my wife.

 

[HisLittleHazelnut]

double post

 

[HisLittleHazelnut]

There are verses talking about making a joyful noise unto the Lord. Clapping is a noise. So is playing a musical instrument. If there is joy in the heart of the one clapping or playing the instrument, would not God be glorified?

I realize this passage is in Psalms, and it is thus "old testament" but if we truly believe the Bible we can't just cut and paste what we want out of each book. I realize that there are things Jesus specifically brought over from the Old covenant and then those that he did not mention, but when it comes to things that are not mentioned in the New covenant, wouldn't you think it was assumed that it was still a proper style of worship? If not, it would have been addressed. In fact, if Jesus wanted to expound on something, he did, for clarification. But the issue of instruments/clapping was not brought up by Jesus or the apostles, so therefore, it must not have been an issue or else it WOULD have been brought up.

Noise isn't just singing, folks.

 

[Apollos1]

I believe a bit of analysis is in order.

WHY do people applaud? What is the purpose of their applause? And of course the big question... What is the scriptural mandate? -or- Is there a scriptural principle to guide us as far as our conduct during worship?

Departing from my typical style of writing, I will leave you to ponder over such thoughts for now.

Also a departure from that which some readers might expect from me, I want to quote "Miss Manners", a syndicated columnist whose articles appear in many newspapers across the USA once a week, usually on Saturdays.

Miss Manners, when posed with questions in reference to applause in worship, and the inquirer asked if their thoughts against applause were correct, responded...

“Yes, but try and explain that to people who recognize no greater authority than entertainment, and therefore know of no higher show of reverence than applause.”

I say – well said!!!

 

[bling]

So culture, not God's word, determines morals?

I did not say that at all!
Culture might determine modesty.
On a visit to South Africa there was a group of women walking around in long dresses sleeves, collars and umbrellas. They looked weird on a hot summer day. They where part of a English Church established during the Victorian period and then abandoned by the missionaries. They taught that you must dress modestly and put Western Victorian rules of modesty on them which became part of their religious believes and doctrine.

I had a missionary friend to Thailand that when he first went there was shocked and embarrass by the attire of the Christian women. They wore long dresses with slits up each side so you could see their panties on some. At the men’s business meeting he finial had the courage to talk about it. He said, “We need to talk about our Christian women’s attire!” All the men were happy he finally wanted to bring it up and were relieved he brought the subject up first. They begin by saying how shocked and embarrassed they were about the way his wife dressed. She had actually worn a dress that you could see some cleavage. Only the most risqué women would ware something that showed any part of her upper body and cleavage was way too much.

 

[holo]

If one is not doing what God said then he is sinning, sin is transgression of God's law, so is one gloryfying God by not doing what God has said?

True, but then the believer isn't actually under the law, much less some law that says "thou shalt not clap thine hands".

Sonbooks add nothing to singing, they are an aid, they get everyone on the same page singing the same lyrics, so things are done decently and in order. Dancing is adding to what God said, no where did God authorize for the church to sing and dance. The and dance part was added by men.

And singing was "ordained by God"? Where did God "ordain" singing in church? Which songs were ordained by God? Does the bible refer to your songbook?

Sin does not exist in some places??

It doesn't exist where there is no law. If a person drinks wine without offence, and you manage to convince him that it's sinful, then it will be sin for him.

Are people in the "uncivilized" places saved apart from God's word, the gospel?

No, but the gospel isn't "thou shalt not clap" or "thou shalt not expose thine breasts".

Does passing of time change what God's has said?

No. So is there a particular reason you don't dance like a madman like king David did? As far as I know, God has never un-ordained that. Same goes for eating locusts and quoting pagan greek philosophers etc.

 

[holo]

God gave us everything we have and we are to use those things as He would have us, we are not to abuse those things by doing or not doing what God has said. If God did not ask for clapping, would clapping bring glory to Him? or in other words, is doing something God has not asked for bring glory to Him? If so, how?

So what exactly has God asked for, do you think?

What makes you think that a God who decided to come here as a man, washed the feet of his often ignorant disciples, died slowly and stark naked on a cross, a God who gave Himself for you while you were still a sinner, a God who looks to the heart, a God who uses the love evil people have for their children to illuminate the love He (who IS LOVE) has for His children, a God to whom your rihgteousness is as filthy rags, a God who has already taken your sin as far from you as the east is from the west - should approve or disapprove of your worship based on whether or not you clap your hands?

 

[crawfish]

Also a departure from that which some readers might expect from me, I want to quote "Miss Manners", a syndicated columnist whose articles appear in many newspapers across the USA once a week, usually on Saturdays.

Miss Manners, when posed with questions in reference to applause in worship, and the inquirer asked if their thoughts against applause were correct, responded...

“Yes, but try and explain that to people who recognize no greater authority than entertainment, and therefore know of no higher show of reverence than applause.”

I say – well said!!!

I think both of you have a fairly narrow view of what it means to applaud.

There is a story I heard from a guy visiting a church of Christ. The minister got up to deliver the sermon, and he delivered in the most dry, monotone message the guy had ever heard. He found it difficult to stay awake to - and, looking around and the congregation, it seemed that he wasn't the only one.

After service, he told his buddy that the minister should take a speaking class - perhaps go to Toastmasters to learn a better delivery. His buddy said that the guy was actually a great speaker - he was a popular retired college professor and had spoken at events all over the country.

Then why, the guy asked, did he deliver such a boring monologue? Easy, his friend said. The minister was afraid that if his sermon was interesting that would constitute entertainment.

 

[HisLittleHazelnut]

Sonbooks add nothing to singing, they are an aid, they get everyone on the same page singing the same lyrics, so things are done decently and in order. Dancing is adding to what God said, no where did God authorize for the church to sing and dance. The and dance part was added by men.

So David wasn't "dancing before the Lord" as it states in Scripture, but rather dancing for some other reason? Now tell me, why would it use the term "dancing before the Lord" if he wasn't truly doing that? Also, since it's not listed as something we SHOULDN'T do as a Christian... why do you beat up on it?

I understand things like the OT saying 'eye for an eye' but Jesus taught against that and clarified what he expected of His followers. As far as worshiping God goes? Yes, singing is involved. But other forms are not expressly said to be wrong? If you claim to want to do things "just the way the Christians did in the 1st Century" that means you will neither ADD to Scripture nor take away from it. And in saying that God never condoned clapping/instruments/dance as proper worship towards Him during the New Covenant is not right to do, because the truth of the matter is His people worshiped Him in those ways before, and there is nothing expressly written that we cannot do them now.

Where things are expressly condoned, do them.
Where things are expressly taught against, don't do them.
Where things are a little grey, and the New Testament is unclear and/or hasn't brought them up at all, and it might cause you to stumble, fine, don't do them... but if they're fine for someone else to do with a clear conscience, don't beat them up over it. At the same time, if they know it causes you to stumble, they shouldn't do it around you. But to say point-blank that it's wrong for ANYONE to do these things in my opinion is adding to what the Scriptures actually teach, thus negating the whole purpose of what you stand for.