Circumcision

[Studyman]

As for Matthew 23:1, I have already said that Jesus's words in his first coming were directed only to Israel (Romans 15:8, Matthew 10:5, Matthew 15:24). Gentiles could not be saved as gentiles then, but only thru Israel.

Yes, this is preached by "Many" who call Jesus Lord, Lord in the religions of the world we were born into. But it's foolish to preach that the Salvation Jesus promoted, changed after His Murder, since there is no such teaching from Him. And Paul's own words stand against your philosophy, once again.

Acts 26: 19 Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision:

So Paul says he was given a vision from the heavens, and he was obedient to the vision. What did the Vision tell him?

20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

"Many" who call Jesus Lord, Lord, promote that the "Works" meet for repentance, was different for the Jews than the Gentiles. But Paul's words stand against them in this philosophy as well.

1 Cor. 7: 19 Circumcision (Jew) is nothing, and uncircumcision (Gentile) is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments "of God".

Here is that "ONE" LAW being promoted again.

When a man considers "Every" inspired Word of God, they all agree to one thing, that the God of the Bible and HIS Words are to be trusted. And those "many" self-proclaimed Apostles of Christ, who call Jesus Lord, Lord but forsake Moses, are not to be instructed.

This was Paul's message. "They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

This was the Jesus of the Bible's message. "And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

Just because you don't believe what is written, doesn't make what is written a falsehood.

You have to see what James decided in Acts 15, as a development that the program has changed, so you cannot go back to Jesus's words and retrospectively apply them to the gentile believers.

No Guojing, "YOU" can't believe the Christ's Words, or the Torah, or the Prophets, apply to you and the gentiles.

But the Holy scriptures teach no such thing, as the Scriptures I post, and you ignore, clearly show.

Remember that Jesus told the 12 that whatever they bind on earth will be bound in heaven. Since James and the others decided at Acts 15 that gentiles believers are not to be under the Law of Moses, it is also decided in heaven.

But the problem with this religious philosophy you have adopted, and are now promoting, is it is a lie to say the Apostles decided the Gentile believers were not under obligation to obey the Law of Moses. The Apostles said the exact opposite.

19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:

That means, turned to God in repentance, Yes? And what did they do that caused them to be dead in trespasses and sins? If they are not obligated to God just as the Jews were, then why do they even need salvation? What does it mean to "turn to God"?

20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. All of which are against the Law of Moses.

 

[HARK!]

We disagree with how you interpreted Ephesians 2:11-12, you remember?

So, naturally, you will disagree with my post there.

But disagreement does not mean its irrelevant, unless you only want responses that agree with yours.

Just saying that you disagree, doesn't present a convincing counterargument. to what Paul makes clear.

 

[Guojing]

Just saying that you disagree, doesn't present a convincing counterargument. to what Paul makes clear.

Naturally, when you disagree with someone, you won't find his points convincing.

This is known as egocentric bias

 

[Guojing]

But it's foolish to preach that the Salvation Jesus promoted, changed after His Murder, since there is no such teaching from Him. And Paul's own words stand against your philosophy, once again.

If it didn't change, there would be no need for the Jerusalem Council in Acts 15.

 

[Guojing]

Here is Romans 8 -

Who is Paul addressing here? Jews? Gentiles? Neither? Both?

Jews and gentiles in the Body of Christ.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Circumcision is a "dead work," that is, it is a work that accomplishes nothing. And it should be repented of. That is what "repentance from dead works is all about." It is repenting (changing your heart and mind) about the OT rituals and sacrifices.

 

[Guojing]

I don't believe there are two groups of believers based on what the Scriptures actually say. I have posted the Scriptures already, and you ignored them. Nevertheless, I will post them again. Who know if you might accept them this time.

Eph. 4: 3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. 4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 "One God and Father of all", who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

You are not the first religious man, who professed to know God, who tried to create a Wall of Separation between men based on DNA.

When people disagree with your interpretation of scripture, it does not follow they are hence ignoring them. They are just disagreeing because they have a different interpretation of the same passage.

What you are describing in that Ephesians passage is the Body of Christ, not Israel.

Galatians 2:7-9 in the KJV, if you are willing to accept, tells you there are 2 groups. Once you understand that, Acts 21:18-25 will make more sense to you as well

 

[bbbbbbb]

Jews and gentiles in the Body of Christ.

So, how is it that Jews are able to call God "Abba" if, in fact, they are still under the Old Covenant where such a thing would be blasphemy?

 

[Studyman]

If it didn't change, there would be no need for the Jerusalem Council in Acts 15.

The Pharisees were promoting their own religion which rejected God's Commandments. This is undeniable Biblical Truth and had been so for many centuries. Jesus fought against these same religious sects in His Lifetime, and the apostles were still fighting against them, as the Pharisees and Jews continued to persecute God's Church even as David informs us they did in his time, (Ps. 14, 5, and others) even as Paul said they continued to do all of his life.

They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

To preserve and promote your particular religious philosophy, you MUST ignore and reject these truths, by implying that all the sudden, the Pharisees and Jews in Jerusalem and elsewhere, who "Professed" to know God, had suddenly stopped "Rejecting His Commandments", that they somehow stopped "Teaching for Doctrines the commandments of men", while professing to know God.

I can't stop you from promoting such foolishness, or from ignoring whatever scriptures that can't be twisted or taken out of contest to help promote to others a particular religious sect or business you have adopted.

But I can post Scriptures and examine them and show a perspective of a man who doesn't have to reject, ignore, omit or otherwise diminish any of God's Inspired Word.

The Apostles knew this truth, and worked to keep the New converts away from the Pharisees religion, and encouraged them to continue listening to Moses, as they had done prior to Acts 15. Just as Jesus also had directed the Multitudes, which would have included Gentiles who ate the crumbs which fell of the masters table, and the Apostles His Father had chosen and given to HIM.

Nothing changed here. There were men who professed to know God, but "worked iniquity" The Prophets warned of the exact same thing, Jesus warned of the exact same thing, and the Apostles in acts 15 warned of the exact same thing, as I have also posted and you have ignored.


"Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

And as for today, Jesus Himself warned me to take Heed, not of those who don't believe in God, but those who "Profess to know Him".

Matt. 24: 4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. 5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I (Jesus) am Christ; and shall deceive many.

I know you said His Words are no longer to be applied to you. But what if HE is Right, and it is you who are deceived? I advocate that men hold a meeting with the Apostles "for to consider of this matter."

 

[bbbbbbb]

The Pharisees were promoting their own religion which rejected God's Commandments. This is undeniable Biblical Truth and had been so for many centuries. Jesus fought against these same religious sects in His Lifetime, and the apostles were still fighting against them, as the Pharisees and Jews continued to persecute God's Church even as David informs us they did in his time, (Ps. 14, 5, and others) even as Paul said they continued to do all of his life.

They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

To preserve and promote your particular religious philosophy, you MUST ignore and reject these truths, by implying that all the sudden, the Pharisees and Jews in Jerusalem and elsewhere, who "Professed" to know God, had suddenly stopped "Rejecting His Commandments", that they somehow stopped "Teaching for Doctrines the commandments of men", while professing to know God.

I can't stop you from promoting such foolishness, or from ignoring whatever scriptures that can't be twisted or taken out of contest to help promote to others a particular religious sect or business you have adopted.

But I can post Scriptures and examine them and show a perspective of a man who doesn't have to reject, ignore, omit or otherwise diminish any of God's Inspired Word.

The Apostles knew this truth, and worked to keep the New converts away from the Pharisees religion, and encouraged them to continue listening to Moses, as they had done prior to Acts 15. Just as Jesus also had directed the Multitudes, which would have included Gentiles who ate the crumbs which fell of the masters table, and the Apostles His Father had chosen and given to HIM.

Nothing changed here. There were men who professed to know God, but "worked iniquity" The Prophets warned of the exact same thing, Jesus warned of the exact same thing, and the Apostles in acts 15 warned of the exact same thing, as I have also posted and you have ignored.


"Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

And as for today, Jesus Himself warned me to take Heed, not of those who don't believe in God, but those who "Profess to know Him".

Matt. 24: 4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. 5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I (Jesus) am Christ; and shall deceive many.

I know you said His Words are no longer to be applied to you. But what if HE is Right, and it is you who are deceived? I advocate that men hold a meeting with the Apostles "for to consider of this matter."

In the gospels we have a written record of a very large number of words spoken by Jesus Christ. Many of them are addressed to mankind in general (i.e. John 3:16) but many are not. Some are directly spoken to individuals such as the famous statement to Peter about being the rock upon which Christ would build His church. One must understand whether or not His words are addressed to you as an individual before jumping to conclusions. For example, Matthew 28:19, 20 was clearly spoken only to the eleven disciples, yet has been generally interpreted to have been spoke to all Christians.

 

[Studyman]

When people disagree with your interpretation of scripture, it does not follow they are hence ignoring them. They are just disagreeing because they have a different interpretation of the same passage.

What you are describing in that Ephesians passage is the Body of Christ, not Israel.

Galatians 2:7-9 in the KJV, if you are willing to accept, tells you there are 2 groups. Once you understand that, Acts 21:18-25 will make more sense to you as well

We are not in disagreement over interpretation. You won't even engage in a discussion about what is actually written. Our disagreement is based on the complete rejection of Scriptutres. The "unbelief" in what is written. As you promoted clearly. " so you cannot go back to Jesus's words and retrospectively apply them to the gentile believers."

Since both you and I are Gentiles, your philosophy is to ignore the Words of Scripture as unapplicable to you. This is clear throughout your posts.

So when Jesus says "Man shall live by every Word that proceeds from the mouth of God", it's not that you and I don't understand this verse in the same way. Even a child can understand this verse. The reason why we disagree is because you don't believe this verse applies to you, and I believe this verse applies to all "men".

It's the same with Paul's words.

Eph. 4: 4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

It's not that we read this verse differently. It's that you don't believe this verse, while I do.

I would concede that there is some issue with interpretation, in that you have been convinced 2 sentences in Gal 2 make void all of the Christ's Words, and the entire Law and Prophets, and the rest of Paul's words, where One God and One Law and Seeking the Kingdom of God and HIS Righteousness in concerned.

I don't interpret the Bible to as a book of mostly useless instruction, only written for men of a certain DNA. And the whole "2 groups" doctrine promotes exactly that.

So it seems prudent to share this perspective and gather together with the Apostles to consider the matter. Should we not consider ALL of their words?

 

[Studyman]

In the gospels we have a written record of a very large number of words spoken by Jesus Christ. Many of them are addressed to mankind in general (i.e. John 3:16) but many are not. Some are directly spoken to individuals such as the famous statement to Peter about being the rock upon which Christ would build His church. One must understand whether or not His words are addressed to you as an individual before jumping to conclusions.

I truly believe Jesus wanted me, and ALL MEN Everywhere, to know HE Picked Peter for the position HE gave him.

I find zero evidence that Jesus spoke these words only to a select group of people.

For example, Matthew 28:19, 20 was clearly spoken only to the eleven disciples, yet has been generally interpreted to have been spoke to all Christians.

Matt. 28: 18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. 19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

I believe Jesus wants me to know I can Trust the Apostles to further HIS Teaching and Instruction. And that they were chosen to "Teach all Nations" "in the Way that they should go".

I'm not sure why you would promote something differently, that Jesus may not have directed this information towards me to know or understand, or anyone for that matter.

Perhaps you might present some actual Scriptural evidence that Jesus didn't want me to know who HE Sent out into the Nations to teach HIS gospel. I'm not sure I am following you here?

 

[bbbbbbb]

I truly believe Jesus wanted me, and ALL MEN Everywhere, to know HE Picked Peter for the position HE gave him.

I find zero evidence that Jesus spoke these words only to a select group of people.




Matt. 28: 18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. 19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

I believe Jesus wants me to know I can Trust the Apostles to further HIS Teaching and Instruction. And that they were chosen to "Teach all Nations" "in the Way that they should go".

I'm not sure why you would promote something differently, that Jesus may not have directed this information towards me to know or understand, or anyone for that matter.

Perhaps you might present some actual Scriptural evidence that Jesus didn't want me to know who HE Sent out into the Nations to teach HIS gospel. I'm not sure I am following you here?

While there is little disagreement that Jesus appointed Peter as the rock upon which He would build His church, certain folks decided to retroactively interpret it as having been also said to a lineage of bureaucratic heads of their denomination. IMO this is a clear case of eisegesis in which scripture is maligned by inserting an elephant of interpretation right between the actual lines.

My point is not that I believe that the Great Commission was only intended for the eleven apostles, but that it was actually spoken to them alone. As we see in the book of the Acts of the Apostles all believers were deeply engaged in evangelism and discipleship. Whether or not they viewed themselves as being subject to Christ's words at the end of Mark and Matthew or subject to Christ's final words prior to his ascension in Acts 1 is open to discussion.

 

[Guojing]

We are not in disagreement over interpretation. You won't even engage in a discussion about what is actually written. Our disagreement is based on the complete rejection of Scriptutres. The "unbelief" in what is written. As you promoted clearly. " so you cannot go back to Jesus's words and retrospectively apply them to the gentile believers."

Since both you and I are Gentiles, your philosophy is to ignore the Words of Scripture as unapplicable to you. This is clear throughout your posts.

You don't build an ark even though Genesis 6:14 had God commanding Noah to build one, so you clearly follow the same principle.

You have to understand which scripture is written TO you and distinguish them from which scripture is written FOR you.

 

[Guojing]

The Pharisees were promoting their own religion which rejected God's Commandments. This is undeniable Biblical Truth and had been so for many centuries. Jesus fought against these same religious sects in His Lifetime, and the apostles were still fighting against them, as the Pharisees and Jews continued to persecute God's Church even as David informs us they did in his time, (Ps. 14, 5, and others) even as Paul said they continued to do all of his life.

Those are members of the little flock, who believed Jesus is their promised Messiah (Act 15:5), not the Pharisees you know who opposed Jesus.

Don't mix them up.

 

[Guojing]

So, how is it that Jews are able to call God "Abba" if, in fact, they are still under the Old Covenant where such a thing would be blasphemy?

In the Body of Christ, your DNA don't matter (Galatians 3:27-28).

Once Israel has fallen, there is no longer any Old Covenant. You are either in the Body of Christ, or you are unsaved.

 

[Guojing]

I find zero evidence that Jesus spoke these words only to a select group of people.

What about these 2 scripture statements of Jesus?

1)Luke 12:32-33:
32 Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom.

33 Sell that ye have, and give alms; provide yourselves bags which wax not old, a treasure in the heavens that faileth not, where no thief approacheth, neither moth corrupteth.

2) Matthew 19:28
And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

No Christian I met think these are spoken TO them, for very good reasons.

So when you come across Matthew 28:18-20

18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Do you notice the structure of Matthew 19:28 is very similar to this? So what makes one only applicable to the 12, while the other is not?

 

[Studyman]

You don't build an ark even though Genesis 6:14 had God commanding Noah to build one, so you clearly follow the same principle.

You have to understand which scripture is written TO you and distinguish them from which scripture is written FOR you.

Yes, the Holy Scriptures were inspired by God "for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works."

 

[Studyman]

Those are members of the little flock, who believed Jesus is their promised Messiah (Act 15:5), not the Pharisees you know who opposed Jesus.

Don't mix them up.

"But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed,"

So in your religion, Paul was still a member of the Sect of the Pharisees, only he believed Jesus was the Messiah? That would be just like those men in Matt:7 who Jesus didn't know then, Yes?

So you are preaching to the world that Jesus' Little Flock was trying to deceive the Gentiles just as they had deceived the Jews for Centuries? "Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?


Sometimes I can't tell if you really believe this foolishness, or if you are just trolling me.

 

[Studyman]

What about these 2 scripture statements of Jesus?

Perhaps you might actually address what is written. It may be difficult for you at first, but it leads to an honest adult discussion.

"I truly believe Jesus wanted me, and ALL MEN Everywhere, to know HE Picked Peter for the position HE gave him.

I find zero evidence that Jesus spoke these words only to a select group of people."