Circumcision

DamianWarS · Jun 23, 2020

HARK! said:
How did you surmise that?

Are you attempting to present a strawman argument?

it was a question because I'm confused about what you're views (I still am). the intent of the question is an answer for clarity, something like yes or no with a possible explanation, so that I may read the OP with a better understanding of your position. I don't know how it's a strawman... it's not an argument, again, it's a question to clarify your position.

You may answer the question or talk about stuff around the question but I don't have interests in the latter so you can choose which direction you desire.

HARK! · Jun 23, 2020

DamianWarS said:
it was a question because I'm confused about what you're views (I still am). the intent of the question is an answer for clarity, something like yes or no with a possible explanation, so that I may read the OP with a better understanding of your position. I don't know how it's a strawman... it's not an argument, again, it's a question to clarify your position.

You may answer the question or talk about stuff around the question but I don't have interests in the latter so you can choose which direction you desire.

Do you believe that one must be baptized to obey Messiah?

Let me make this question a little more clear.

What comes first, being led in obedience to Messiah, or Baptism?

What comes first, belief, or signs of that belief?

DamianWarS · Jun 23, 2020

HARK! said:
No. You're presenting a strawman argument.

and which argument is that? I only asked a question.

HARK! said:
That's because you were off topic, and derailing my thread.

how is asking about clarifying your position about circumcision in a thread about circumcision off-topic?

HARK! said:
The NT is abundantly clear regarding circumcision AND it is also referred to as an "everlasting covenant"

to which you have not made your position abundantly clear

HARK! said:
That law is given to those who are born into Israel. Was that law given to Pagans who have come to belief?

Such as Baptism, belief precedes the outward sign. Abraham was 99 years old before he showed the outward sign of his belief.

I'll be honest, I find your positions counter-intuitive to my own so I'm afraid I would land at the wrong conclusions and risk misrepresenting your position if I have to guess at it so can you help me by being more direct. I don't know who you think a pagan is and how you connect Jewish law to believers, you're going to have to help me on that one. Are you saying if you are a male follower of Christ (after belief) you require physical circumcision to obey Christ or you don't require physical circumcision to obey Christ? I still don't know what you think regarding this.

HARK! · Jun 23, 2020

DamianWarS said:
how is asking about clarifying your position about circumcision in a thread about circumcision off-topic?

The other thread was not about circumcision, It was about Moedim and diet.

HARK! · Jun 23, 2020

DamianWarS said:
how you connect Jewish law to believer

I don't connect Jewish law to believers. Yahshua rebuked Jewish law. Yahshua followed the Torah. Yahshua called believers to follow him; as he followed Torah, not Jewish law.

DamianWarS · Jun 23, 2020

HARK! said:
Do you believe that one must be baptized to obey Messiah?

Let me make this question a little more clear.

What comes first, being led in obedience to Messiah, or Baptism?

What comes first, belief, or signs of that belief?

again, answering questions with questions hasn't been productive with us. We think differently and understand scripture differently. Can you simply just tell me what your position is? even in these questions, you give they seem to be at odds with each other. yes, baptism is a good thing and in obedience to Christ but baptism doesn't come before belief or obedience so what are you saying? that baptism is required or not required... circumcision (physical) is required or not required... I don't know the point you're trying to make as it applies to circumcision.

DamianWarS · Jun 23, 2020

HARK! said:
The other thread was not about circumcision, It was about Moedim and diet.

yet Paul made it a part of the context regardless if you wanted to discuss it or not.

DamianWarS · Jun 23, 2020

HARK! said:
I don't connect Jewish law to believers. Yahshua rebuked Jewish law. Yahshua followed the Torah. Yahshua called believers to follow him; as he followed Torah, not Jewish law.

this is more ambiguity and again you have only chosen to remark on the semantics of the question but avoid the question itself.

HARK! · Jun 23, 2020

DamianWarS said:
again, answering questions with questions hasn't been productive with us. We think differently and understand scripture differently. Can you simply just tell me what your position is? even in these questions, you give they seem to be at odds with each other. yes, baptism is a good thing and in obedience to Christ but baptism doesn't come before belief or obedience so what are you saying? that baptism is required or not required... circumcision (physical) is required or not required... I don't know the point you're trying to make as it applies to circumcision.

I should probably start off by pointing out that I'm not YHWH. When you ask what is required; I assume that you mean in reference to salvation. I don't get to determine who will be saved.

Those who believe in Messiah follow his example of obedience. Circumcision is a sign of that obedience.

(CLV) Ro 4:9
This happiness, then, is it for the Circumcision, or for the Uncircumcision also? For we are saying, "To Abraham faith is reckoned for righteousness."

(CLV) Ro 4:10
How then, is it reckoned? Being in circumcision or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.

(CLV) Ro 4:11
And he obtained the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which was in uncircumcision, for him to be the father of all those who are believing through uncircumcision, for righteousness to be reckoned to them,

HARK! · Jun 23, 2020

DamianWarS said:
this is more ambiguity and again you have only have chosen to remark on the semantics of the question but avoid the question itself.

Words have meaning. Let's go with what the words actually mean. Yahshua did not tell us to follow Jewish law.

Here is what he said regarding the Torah:

(CLV) Lk 16:17
Yet it is easier for heaven and earth to pass by than for one serif of the law to fall.

DamianWarS · Jun 23, 2020

HARK! said:
I should probably start off by pointing out that I'm not YHWH. When you ask what is required; I assume that you mean in reference to salvation. I don't get to determine who will be saved.

Those who believe in Messiah follow his example of obedience. Circumcision is a sign of that obedience.

(CLV) Ro 4:9
This happiness, then, is it for the Circumcision, or for the Uncircumcision also? For we are saying, "To Abraham faith is reckoned for righteousness."

(CLV) Ro 4:10
How then, is it reckoned? Being in circumcision or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.

(CLV) Ro 4:11
And he obtained the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which was in uncircumcision, for him to be the father of all those who are believing through uncircumcision, for righteousness to be reckoned to them,

I ask in reference to obedience but that's ok. Your avoidance speaks volumes

Strong in Him · Jun 24, 2020

HARK! said:
Those who believe in Messiah follow his example of obedience. Circumcision is a sign of that obedience.

In your opinion.

So you are saying that every male believer has to be circumcised if they want to be obedient to Jesus?

HARK! · Jun 24, 2020

Strong in Him said:
In your opinion.

So you are saying that every male believer has to be circumcised if they want to be obedient to Jesus?

Here is what Yahshua says.

(CLV) Lk 16:17
Yet it is easier for heaven and earth to pass by than for one serif of the law to fall.

Strong in Him · Jun 24, 2020

HARK! said:
Here is what Yahshua says.

(CLV) Lk 16:17
Yet it is easier for heaven and earth to pass by than for one serif of the law to fall.

That doesn't answer my question.
The law has not "fallen" - Gentiles, who were never under it, don't keep it.

HARK! · Jun 24, 2020

Strong in Him said:
That doesn't answer my question.
The law has not "fallen" - Gentiles, who were never under it, don't keep it.

(CLV) Ro 2:11
For there is not partiality with God,

(CLV) Ro 2:12
for whoever sinned without law, without law also shall perish, and whoever sinned in law, through law will be judged.

(CLV) Ro 2:13
For not the listeners to law are just with God, but the doers of law shall be justified.

Strong in Him · Jun 24, 2020

HARK! said:
(CLV) Ro 2:11
For there is not partiality with God,

(CLV) Ro 2:12
for whoever sinned without law, without law also shall perish, and whoever sinned in law, through law will be judged.

(CLV) Ro 2:13
For not the listeners to law are just with God, but the doers of law shall be justified.

Yes, for those who have, and live by, the law.

Paul said that if anyone allowed themselves to be circumcised, Christ died in vain.
Hebrews says that the law was a shadow of things to come and is obsolete.

HARK! · Jun 24, 2020

Strong in Him said:
Yes, for those who have, and live by, the law.

Paul said that if anyone allowed themselves to be circumcised, Christ died in vain.

So are you telling me that when Paul circumcised Timothy; that played the hypocrite and maliciously condemned Timothy to death?

HARK! · Jun 24, 2020

Strong in Him said:
Hebrews says that the law was a shadow of things to come and is obsolete.

No it doesn't. That would contradict Messiah.

(CLV) Lk 16:17
Yet it is easier for heaven and earth to pass by than for one serif of the law to fall.

Minister Monardo · Jun 24, 2020

HARK! said:
So are you telling me that when Paul circumcised Timothy; that played the hypocrite and maliciously condemned Timothy to death?

The narrative explains his reason. He would have been a hypocrite to teach Jews by birth to not get circumcised. Yeshua was born a Jew in the flesh, of a woman, of the Law. and was circumcised. Unlike Titus, who was not a Jew.
Galatians 2:3. But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised:
Acts 16:
1 Then he came to Derbe and Lystra. And behold, a certain disciple was there, named Timothy, the son of a certain Jewish woman who believed, but his father was Greek.
2 He was well spoken of by the brethren who were at Lystra and Iconium.
3 Paul wanted to have him go on with him. And he took him and circumcised him because of the Jews who were in that region, for they all knew that his father was Greek.

Gentiles became Israel in spirit only. Romans 2:29. Children of Abraham by faith alone.

DamianWarS · Jun 24, 2020

Strong in Him said:
HARK! said:

Strong in Him said:

So you are saying that every male believer has to be circumcised if they want to be obedient to Jesus?

Click to expand...

Here is what Yahshua says.

(CLV) Lk 16:17
Yet it is easier for heaven and earth to pass by than for one serif of the law to fall.

Click to expand...

That doesn't answer my question.
The law has not "fallen" - Gentiles, who were never under it, don't keep it.

the answer I infer from @HARK! is "yes" but for some reason, he refuses to say it.

Circumcision

Why must we be circumcised?

To be saved.

To keep the law.

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