Circumcision

[pat34lee]

Open Heart

Ask your husband to pull his thing out and let you cut a chunk off of it with a pair scissors and see what he says to you, chase him around the house for a while... it's not like ear piercing at all.

Babies have and do DIE from circumcision.

You can die from any surgery, including having your tonsils removed.
There is a reason Yahweh specified the 8th day. Look it up.

 

[Open Heart]

And how did it get to Islam? From Abraham, through Ishmael.
Long before there were Jews. Circumcision is for ALL of Yahweh's
people.

Abraham began circumcising as a sign of his covenant with God. He was not circumcised before that, not when he was a Gentile.

Muslims circumcise because Muhammad made up having an angelic vision telling him they they should. Are you a Muslim? Is Muhammad your prophet?

 

[Open Heart]

And how did it get to Islam? From Abraham, through Ishmael.

No. You are quite mistaken. There were thousands of years of paganism between Abraham and Muhammad. Circumcision was NOT passed down. Then Muhammad schmoozed a bit with some of the local Jews and Arian Christians, and when he decided to make up a new religion, he decided to base it on what he had learned from them.

 

[pat34lee]

Abraham began circumcising as a sign of his covenant with God. He was not circumcised before that, not when he was a Gentile.

Muslims circumcise because Muhammad made up having an angelic vision telling him they they should. Are you a Muslim? Is Muhammad your prophet?

Forget Muslims, side issue, even though they claim circumcision
for the same reason we should. They are children of Abraham.

Are we children of Abraham?
If so,
What did Abraham do when he was circumcised?
What did Yahweh command?

Genesis 17: 9-27
9 And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations.
10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.
11 And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.
12 And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.
13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.
14 And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.
15 And God said unto Abraham, As for Sarai thy wife, thou shalt not call her name Sarai, but Sarah shall her name be.
16 And I will bless her, and give thee a son also of her: yea, I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of people shall be of her.
17 Then Abraham fell upon his face, and laughed, and said in his heart, Shall a child be born unto him that is an hundred years old? and shall Sarah, that is ninety years old, bear?
18 And Abraham said unto God, O that Ishmael might live before thee!
19 And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him.
20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.
21 But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year.
22 And he left off talking with him, and God went up from Abraham.
23 And Abraham took Ishmael his son, and all that were born in his house, and all that were bought with his money, every male among the men of Abraham's house; and circumcised the flesh of their foreskin in the selfsame day, as God had said unto him.
24 And Abraham was ninety years old and nine, when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin.
25 And Ishmael his son was thirteen years old, when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin.
26 In the selfsame day was Abraham circumcised, and Ishmael his son.
27 And all the men of his house, born in the house, and bought with money of the stranger, were circumcised with him.

 

[Open Heart]

Are we children of Abraham?
If so,
What did Abraham do when he was circumcised?
What did Yahweh command?

Gentiles are not the regular children of Abraham (physical and adopted children).

Christian Gentiles are the SPIRITUAL children of Abraham, making them inheritors of the spiritual promise to Abraham (Christ and his salvation) but not the physical promises (such as the land of Canaan) or the Mosaic Covenant given to his regular descendants.

 

[Joshua_5]

A foreskin is neither unwanted nor inconvenient most of the time.

Try telling that to the South African women who got AIDS, or women who contract less serious but more common diseases or illnesses, which they likely would not have caught had their husbands undergone a simple circumcision after birth. Unwanted and inconvenient are words which are probably too polite.

 

[Gadarene]

Try telling that to the South African women who got AIDS, or women who contract less serious but more common diseases or illnesses, which they likely would not have caught had their husbands undergone a simple circumcision after birth. Unwanted and inconvenient are words which are probably too polite.

They can just wear condoms then.

 

[Joshua_5]

Forget Muslims, side issue, even though they claim circumcision
for the same reason we should. They are children of Abraham.

Are we children of Abraham?
If so,
What did Abraham do when he was circumcised?
What did Yahweh command?

The important thing now from a Christian perspective (New Testament times) is circumcision of the heart, not of the flesh. Removing the foreskin of the heart, not of the male.

If foreskin is representative of the sinful nature, and removing this nasty sinful nature (i.e. the foreskin of our hearts) is a good thing (which it is), how can the physical symbol on which the metaphor is based be bad (or even terrible)?

 

[Nithavela]

Try telling that to the South African women who got AIDS, or women who contract less serious but more common diseases or illnesses, which they likely would not have caught had their husbands undergone a simple circumcision after birth. Unwanted and inconvenient are words which are probably too polite.

Why are american babies circumcised to prevent african women from getting aids?

 

[possibletarian]

Try telling that to the South African women who got AIDS, or women who contract less serious but more common diseases or illnesses, which they likely would not have caught had their husbands undergone a simple circumcision after birth. Unwanted and inconvenient are words which are probably too polite.

While that would prevent aids in some cases, it certainly would not prevent AIDS in all cases or even most cases. everyone wearing a condom is much more effective and prevents other STD's as well.

Which country tops the list developed nations with STDs in the world? .. you got it, the good old circumcision mad U.S.of A

 

[possibletarian]

The important thing now from a Christian perspective (New Testament times) is circumcision of the heart, not of the flesh. Removing the foreskin of the heart, not of the male.

If foreskin is representative of the sinful nature, and removing this nasty sinful nature (i.e. the foreskin of our hearts) is a good thing (which it is), how can the physical symbol on which the metaphor is based be bad (or even terrible)?

So why did your god put in there in the first place.?

Is there any biblical evidence even that it represented sin ?

And why was circumcision opposed by Paul for gentiles, in fact Paul went even further, calling those who practise it dogs and evildoers, and goes on to say such confidence in the flash he counts as dung or rubbish.

Philippians 3:1-11

 

[pat34lee]

Gentiles are not the regular children of Abraham (physical and adopted children).

Christian Gentiles are the SPIRITUAL children of Abraham, making them inheritors of the spiritual promise to Abraham (Christ and his salvation) but not the physical promises (such as the land of Canaan) or the Mosaic Covenant given to his regular descendants.

Read again.

Genesis 17:12
12 And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.

Galatians 3:7
7 Understand, then, that those who have faith are the sons of Abraham.

1 Corinthians 6:19-20
19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

 

[pat34lee]

The important thing now from a Christian perspective (New Testament times) is circumcision of the heart, not of the flesh. Removing the foreskin of the heart, not of the male.

If foreskin is representative of the sinful nature, and removing this nasty sinful nature (i.e. the foreskin of our hearts) is a good thing (which it is), how can the physical symbol on which the metaphor is based be bad (or even terrible)?

What is a circumcised heart? One that is open to God
and who follows his commandments. Jesus lived to
show us how to do it, not to exempt us from it.

 

[pat34lee]

While that would prevent aids in some cases, it certainly would not prevent AIDS in all cases or even most cases. everyone wearing a condom is much more effective and prevents other STD's as well.

Which country tops the list developed nations with STDs in the world? .. you got it, the good old circumcision mad U.S.of A

Only one method prevents all those 100% of the time.
Abstinence until marriage and faithfulness after.

 

[Open Heart]

Are we children of Abraham?

Gentile believers are the SPIRITUAL children Abraham, therefore not obligated to circumcision or any of the 613 (per the council of Jerusalem), although it's great if you take them on voluntarily -- anyone doing so will certainly be blessed.

I've said this many times. Is there something about my position the you specifically don't understand?

 

[Joshua_5]

Only one method prevents all those 100% of the time.
Abstinence until marriage and faithfulness after.

I agree with this. But there are some infections that can still be passed on even if both partners practiced abstinence until marriage. I believe circumcision can reduce these.

 

[pat34lee]

Gentile believers are the SPIRITUAL children Abraham, therefore not obligated to circumcision or any of the 613 (per the council of Jerusalem), although it's great if you take them on voluntarily -- anyone doing so will certainly be blessed.

I've said this many times. Is there something about my position the you specifically don't understand?

I've shown you what the scripture says about circumcision and being
heirs of Abraham, which seems plain to me. Born or adopted or bought
with a price; all must be circumcised. We are not only adopted, we
were bought by a price. Yeshua's blood was not a spiritual payment.

Which scriptures show that we, as children of Abraham and children
of Yahweh are no longer bound by the same rules and laws that have
bound all believers since the beginning, and which will govern us again
when Yeshua returns to reign? Why would Yahweh exempt some but
not all? If the law weren't important, why give it at all?

 

[Joshua_5]

I've shown you what the scripture says about circumcision and being
heirs of Abraham, which seems plain to me. Born or adopted or bought
with a price; all must be circumcised. We are not only adopted, we
were bought by a price. Yeshua's blood was not a spiritual payment.

Which scriptures show that we, as children of Abraham and children
of Yahweh are no longer bound by the same rules and laws that have
bound all believers since the beginning, and which will govern us again
when Yeshua returns to reign? Why would Yahweh exempt some but
not all? If the law weren't important, why give it at all?

New Testament means New Covenant. The Old Covenant is fulfilled in Christ. I don't have an issue with circumcision, and believe it is probably beneficial, but preaching that circumcision is a requirement for believers is a damnable heresy, condemned by scripture in the strongest terms.

Romans 7:4-6
Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God. For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

Galations 5:6
For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

Galations 5:11-12 And I, brethren, if I yet preach circumcision, why do I yet suffer persecution? then is the offence of the cross ceased. I would they were even cut off which trouble you.

 

[Joshua_5]

So why did your god put in there in the first place.?

Not really sure. Perhaps it gives protection to the male member during birth? Perhaps even it has some sort of use later, I just don't think this can be so significant, given the sign of circumcision for all males in the Old Testament.

Is there any biblical evidence even that it represented sin ?

It seems implied that the foreskin or our hearts makes us hearts stiff-necked, proud and work in a way opposed to God's will. I just don't see how literal circumcision can be harmful like some claim, if spiritual circumcision is beneficial as scripture indicates.

Deuteronomy 10:16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

Colossians 2:11-15 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

And why was circumcision opposed by Paul for gentiles, in fact Paul went even further, calling those who practise it dogs and evildoers, and goes on to say such confidence in the flash he counts as dung or rubbish.

Philippians 3:1-11

Its certainly not a requirement for Christians, as those who were trying to require it for Christians were strongly condemned. To use circumcision to try to obtain righteousness with God is actually a false religion, a damnable heresy, which cannot result in salvation.

 

[Open Heart]

I agree with this. But there are some infections that can still be passed on even if both partners practiced abstinence until marriage. I believe circumcision can reduce these.

For one thing, regular herpes on the mouth CAN be passed on as genital herpes.