Circumcision

[Joshua_5]

It is part of Mexican culture to routinely pierce a baby girl's ears. Are you willing to say that Mexican culture is immoral?

If you ask the circumcision-deniers, that baby girl will never hear the same way a girl with unpierced ears will.

 

[Joshua_5]

I don't see a hundreds of circumcised men lining up to protest this procedure because they feel like they have been harmed by it. Personally, I believe you should make your own decision and live with it....and find a cause actually worth fighting about. This isn't it.

So true. If a man feels so strongly about being circumcised (or being sent to school, or forced to eat his vegetables), there is always the option of the courts. If it was real abuse and real harm was done, there would surely be tens of thousands of cases?

The funny thing is, those who seem most opposed to circumcision never seem to be those who have experienced it first hand.

 

[possibletarian]

So true. If a man feels so strongly about being circumcised (or being sent to school, or forced to eat his vegetables), there is always the option of the courts. If it was real abuse and real harm was done, there would surely be tens of thousands of cases?

The funny thing is, those who seem most opposed to circumcision never seem to be those who have experienced it first hand.

You really think that compares with eating healthy good food and an education ? If so I can see why you would have a problem with giving others freedom and choice in circumcision.

 

[possibletarian]

The funny thing is, those who seem most opposed to circumcision never seem to be those who have experienced it first hand.

And that's just the point, neither were most people with circumcision given the choice to them the deed is already done and to protest about it is to be ostracised.

It is good though in some states the rate is dropping and the tide is turning.

There is a growing movement in the U.S. against circumcision I was quickly able to find many sites.

Wishing They Were Left Intact: Adult Men Discuss Their Circumcisions

Home - Doctors Opposing Circumcision

Circumcision, the ultimate parenting dilemma - BBC News


There were a few thousand more hits. It seems in Europe it wont be long before children can sue their own parents, only a matter of time before it reaches the U.S.

 

[possibletarian]

If you ask the circumcision-deniers, that baby girl will never hear the same way a girl with unpierced ears will.

I have never heard that silly argument to be honest, but even then I let my daughter decide for herself if she would like her ears pierced, in fact wait till she actually asked me if she could.

In exactly the same way if a son of mine approached me and said they wanted to be circumcised I would support them.

My daughter, or any child is not my personal fashion toy or property to satisfy my own cultural, fashion or religious needs.

 

[blackribbon]

But that's just the point, if they were not Christians do you think that circumcision would have reached the levels it has in the U.S.? It is no where nearly the the same levels in less religious countries, not even for health reasons.

Then why isn't it done also in Europe? The US Christianity came from our European ancestry. Actually, I know very few people who do it for religious reasons...only the Jews and they do it in a religious ceremony....not in a hospital.

No one is dictating anything, just asking for choice to be given we are asking for the right to be transferred to the individual, for them to be able to make a decision for themselves and not have it dictated to them by parents who impose their own religions needs on them.

I never considered my daughter mine to satisfy my religious or cultural beliefs, for things that involved a permanent unnecessary change to her body.

So you have left the decision to be vaccinated to her to make as an adult? ... left her little body a vaccine virgin? Or did you make the decision do a medical procedure to her that can be dangerous to some individuals for her when she was a child? Vaccination is by far more dangerous than a circumcision (I am not talking about autism but the long list of possible known side effects that every parent assumes the risk for when authorizing such vaccines). It involves introducing a foreign substance that never was intended to be in the body into the body of very small children. It permanently alters them.

 

[possibletarian]

So you have left the decision to be vaccinated to her to make as an adult? ... left her little body a vaccine virgin? Or did you make the decision do a medical procedure to her that can be dangerous to some individuals for her when she was a child? Vaccination is by far more dangerous than a circumcision (I am not talking about autism but the long list of possible known side effects that every parent assumes the risk for when authorizing such vaccines). It involves introducing a foreign substance that never was intended to be in the body into the body of very small children. It permanently alters them.

You are really comparing vaccination against three or four deadly. deforming and disabling diseases with unnecessary circumcision ? No wonder you have difficulty grasping why people are against circumcision.

 

[blackribbon]

You really think that compares with eating healthy good food and an education ? If so I can see why you would have a problem with giving others freedom and choice in circumcision.

I do consider health choices to be a parent's right and responsibility to make for their children. I personally do believe it is a health issue. But I am not going to force my opinion on anyone else any more than I forced my education options or dietary beliefs. They are mine to make for my children because that IS my role as a parent.

 

[blackribbon]

You are really comparing vaccination against three or four deadly. deforming and disabling diseases with unnecessary circumcision ? No wonder you have difficulty grasping why people are against circumcision.

Your country only vaccinates against 3 or 4 diseases? REALLY?

And most of these diseases are not deadly, deforming, or disabling to the majority of people who do get them. My roommate in college survived measles intact (she was vaccinated). Most of my peers had chicken pox and survived undamaged. The list goes on. Out of curiousity, do you really personally know anyone who has been damaged by a circumcision because I DO know a man who was damaged because he wasn't. Almost ruined his marriage. His doctor who performed his adult circumcision was amazed that he could deal with the pain that his "intact" state left him in. He thought it was "normal" and never questioned it.

I have also watched a circumcision and cared for the boys afterwards. No, it isn't that big of a deal. Vaccination time is more traumatic for children.

 

[possibletarian]

Then why isn't it done also in Europe? The US Christianity came from our European ancestry. Actually, I know very few people who do it for religious reasons...only the Jews and they do it in a religious ceremony....not in a hospital.

The US is the only highly religious country to recommend it for health reasons but it came from a religious background. Most developed countries do not despite having health research at least the equal of the U.S.

Circumcision used to be a more common practice in Europe and the U.K., but we have grown from making excuses to recommend permanently removing healthy tissue for no real reason. In fact if it wasn't for religious sensitivities I'm sure by now it would be illegal even so it is heading that way in some countries.

 

[possibletarian]

Your country only vaccinates against 3 or 4 diseases? REALLY?

Calm down no need to capitalise, it's considered shouting and ill temper.
No clearly not but was the same as saying a few or some was not meant to be an exact figure.

And most of these diseases are not deadly, deforming, or disabling to the majority of people who do get them. My roommate in college survived measles intact (she was vaccinated). Most of my peers had chicken pox and survived undamaged.

And ? just because the majority survive then does not mean they are not dangerous.

Measels
Measles | History of Measles | CDC
In the decade before 1963 when a vaccine became available, nearly all children got measles by the time they were 15 years of age. It is estimated 3 to 4 million people in the United States were infected each year. Also each year an estimated 400 to 500 people died, 48,000 were hospitalized, and 4,000 suffered encephalitis (swelling of the brain) from measles.

Chicken Pox
Chickenpox Can Be Serious
Most children with chickenpox completely recover. But it can be serious, even deadly, especially for babies, pregnant women, adolescents, adults, and people with weakened immune systems. Make sure everyone in your family is up to date on their chickenpox vaccinations.

As you should know vaccination not only protects those vaccinated but the general populations as well, to compare them is rather silly.

The list goes on.

Oh I'm sure it does

Out of curiousity, do you really personally know anyone who has been damaged by a circumcision

Not a single person, medically anyway. My only knowledge comes from aside from campaigns to have it banned and articles online.
I do however personally know people who wish their parents had not made the choice for them, which is why I'm so passionate about it.

because I DO know a man who was damaged because he wasn't. Almost ruined his marriage. His doctor who performed his adult circumcision was amazed that he could deal with the pain that his "intact" state left him in. He thought it was "normal" and never questioned it.

You didn't say how it ruined him (and i accept you may not be entitled too) but no one has complications because they are not circumcised, they have complications because something is wrong and removal of the foreskin may help and or cure, just like you could have complications with any other part of the body

Unless of course it was about other religious or cultural reasons or prejudiced , which I likely wouldn't understand anyway.

I have also watched a circumcision and cared for the boys afterwards. No, it isn't that big of a deal. Vaccination time is more traumatic for children.

I don't think anyone seems to be arguing the trauma aspect, in fact I doubt anyone remembers their circumcision. though articles like this worry me.
Circumcision’s Psychological Damage

I suspect there are a great number of things more traumatic for children like vaccinations, but the benefits not only to them, but reducing the rate of infection, death trauma and misery around them too are great.

 

[possibletarian]

I do consider health choices to be a parent's right and responsibility to make for their children.

I certainly believe it as responsibility but I'm not so sure about the right to make any decision we want, it must be limited to what's beneficial.

I personally do believe it is a health issue.

Okay, I understand that

But I am not going to force my opinion on anyone else any more than I forced my education options or dietary beliefs. They are mine to make for my children because that IS my role as a parent.

I think we shouldn't shirk from a duty of care should include dietary responsibility, though most bad diets are down to a lack of education.

 

[blackribbon]

Calm down no need to capitalise, it's considered shouting and ill temper.
No clearly not but was the same as saying a few or some was not meant to be an exact figure.



And ? just because the majority survive then does not mean they are not dangerous.

Measels
Measles | History of Measles | CDC
In the decade before 1963 when a vaccine became available, nearly all children got measles by the time they were 15 years of age. It is estimated 3 to 4 million people in the United States were infected each year. Also each year an estimated 400 to 500 people died, 48,000 were hospitalized, and 4,000 suffered encephalitis (swelling of the brain) from measles.

Chicken Pox
Chickenpox Can Be Serious
Most children with chickenpox completely recover. But it can be serious, even deadly, especially for babies, pregnant women, adolescents, adults, and people with weakened immune systems. Make sure everyone in your family is up to date on their chickenpox vaccinations.

As you should know vaccination not only protects those vaccinated but the general populations as well, to compare them is rather silly.



Oh I'm sure it does



Not a single person, medically anyway my only knowledge comes from aside from campaigns to have it banned and articles online.
I do however personally know people who wish their parents had not made the choice for them, which is why I'm so passionate about it.



You didn't say how it ruined him (and i accept you may not be entitled too) but no one has complications because they are not circumcised, they have complications because something is wrong and removal of the foreskin may help and or cure, just like you could have complications with any other part of the body

Unless of course it was about other religious or cultural reasons or prejudiced , which I likely wouldn't understand anyway.



I don't think anyone seems to be arguing the trauma aspect, in fact I doubt anyone remembers their circumcision. though articles like this worry me.
Circumcision’s Psychological Damage

I suspect there are a great number of things more traumatic for children like vaccinations, but the benefits not only to them, but reducing the rate of infection, death trauma and misery around them too are great.

Scarlet fever used to cause a home to be quarantined, now a kid gets an antibiotic and misses a day of school. Your figures about the death rate are not valid in today. We can treat many of these disease and few people except the immune compromised die.

The real question is: are you for letting children grow up and make all their health decisions or allowing parents to make them for them when they are too young to make an educated decision? be it vaccines (which really do medical injure some people) or a simple circumcision

And yes, his adhesions were related to him being "intact" and his mother having no knowledge of correct hygiene for an intact child. He wouldn't have had extensive adhesions if he had been circumcised. No foreskin...no adhesions. Yes, it was related to his "natural" intact state.

Again, the trauma of being born and being separated from your mother would seriously out weigh the 10 minutes in the circ room. I would put the experience of circumcision as an infant in the category of getting the Hep B vaccine in their leg and having their foot squeezed for blood for the infant metabolic screening (which can take as long as a circ). Ironically, baby scream the loudest when we hold their arm down to take an under the arm temperature. They universally hate that.

 

[Dave-W]

but for gentile Christians (most of the U.S. Christians) circumcision is not only discouraged, but people who encourage it are are called 'dogs' and 'evil workers' .

Philippians 3 KJV
Galatians 5 BSB

But that circ was for ENTIRELY a different reason than circ today. Read Acts 15.

 

[possibletarian]

Scarlet fever used to cause a home to be quarantined, now a kid gets an antibiotic and misses a day of school. Your figures about the death rate are not valid in today. We can treat many of these disease and few people except the immune compromised die.

Goodness, I think you missed the point, that they are not that bad today is due to vaccinations, not in spite of them. Hence to vaccinate is a good recommended thing..

The real question is: are you for letting children grow up and make all their health decisions or allowing parents to make them for them when they are too young to make an educated decision? be it vaccines (which really do medical injure some people) or a simple circumcision

Some should be done early, others can wait, just because a few should be done early does not mean that all decisions should be made early, or that some should not be left up to the child to decide if they are going to be operated upon.

And yes, his adhesions were related to him being "intact" and his mother having no knowledge of correct hygiene for an intact child. He wouldn't have had extensive adhesions if he had been circumcised. No foreskin...no adhesions. Yes, it was related to his "natural" intact state.

Yes of course getting a problem with the foreskin is related to it being there, but you could say that about almost any part of the body that has an infection or problem of some kind. Also I'm sure that you could list other cases too, just as i could list a few cases where being circumcised cause some kind of problem.

Again, the trauma of being born and being separated from your mother would seriously out weigh the 10 minutes in the circ room. I would put the experience of circumcision as an infant in the category of getting the Hep B vaccine in their leg and having their foot squeezed for blood for the infant metabolic screening (which can take as long as a circ). Ironically, baby scream the loudest when we hold their arm down to take an under the arm temperature. They universally hate that.

Again most arguments about circumcision are not trauma related, even though my admittedly biased searches show a growing case for the trauma aspect. But that the argument is about choice, for the child the choice is taken away, simple as.

Circumcision’s Psychological Damage

 

[possibletarian]

But that circ was for ENTIRELY a different reason than circ today. Read Acts 15.

So can I ask, do believe that in their hearts, most US Christians have their children circumcised for medical reasons alone ?

It's almost like god's word was ignorant of the health issues, if indeed inspired by a god ? Come to think of it and this is genuine question why do you think it was required in the Old Testament ?

 

[Dave-W]

So can I ask, do believe that in their hearts, most US Christians have their children circumcised for medical reasons alone ?

No. Most do it for cultural reasons.

"If I leave little Johnny uncut, he will get laughed at in gymn class."

 

[Dave-W]

Come to think of it and this is genuine question why do you think it was required in the Old Testament ?

Good question. It is one of the commands that makes no natural sense.

IMO it was a mark in the flesh (like a branding) that you are in God's covenant with Israel. Not unlike the contemporary use of a wedding band to signify you are in a marriage covenant.

 

[L a n a]

I think the problem is some people want to impose their view on what others can and can't do. There is no group trying to enact legislation to force you to circumcise your future sons. But some people are trying to ban others from circumcising their own children, when it has been done without issue for thousands of years.

While waiting until the sons are much older for them or their wives to decide is okay for some, some want or need to circumcise much earlier for religious or health reasons, and I don't see a problem with parents making such a decision, either.

I definitely believe that parents should be allowed to make decisions they feel are in their child/children's best interest. If you want to circumcise your son, that's fine by me. However, I'd rather my child make this decision for himself.

Personally, I just wouldn't feel comfortable subjecting my newborn to a procedure that isn't medically necessary.

 

[Nithavela]

No. Most do it for cultural reasons.

"If I leave little Johnny uncut, he will get laughed at in gymn class."

The weakest argument of them all.