Churches of Christ and Salvation

[Thedictator]

No church that I know of thinks "it's the water." But the ones that believe in Baptismal Regeneration say that the sacrament puts us right with God, regenerates us by removing sin. The CofCs believe (I think) that baptism doesn't actually regenerate but that it is a requirement, an obligation, an extension and consequence of saving Faith...and in that way may be said to be necessary for salvation.

In other words, you're right. I just used more of them (words) to say it.

Yes, and Churches of Christ do not believe in sacraments. Faith without action can not save, how ever way anyone wants to say it. Thank you for your comment brother.

 

[Thedictator]

Ah, yes. It's not uncommon for Anglicans (and Roman Catholics) to say "the sacrament" when they have the Lord's Supper in mind. It's just a way of speaking. After all, there's at least one other sacrament that they all accept--Baptism.

And yes, it's the bread and wine, although they are actually what's called "the elements." The sacrament itself is more than the elements; it's the whole observance of the Supper. "Eucharist" is an even more common term for that. Its meaning comes from a word meaning a "thanksgiving" which, if you think about it, accords with the theology of most Protestant denominations like the CofCs and Baptists, even while its use is normally associated with the more ritualistic churches and the "high church" parties within them.

As for definitions, the Roman Catholic Church of course believes that the priest is offering the sacrifice of Christ and that the elements are actually turned, at his word, into Christ's physical, literal flesh and blood. Anglicans officially reject that view and generally say either that it's a mystery that is beyond definition and is not to be seen in that mechanical and Medieval way OR that it is Christ's true body and blood but in a spiritual sense only.

The word Eucharist is used in some Churches of Christ but not much. The words Lord's Supper, Communion, The Table, are used a lot in describing it.

We also believe that the "Eucharist" is the Body and blood of Christ in a spiritual sense, and that Christ sit and eats with us during this time spiritually.

 

[Thedictator]

Thanks for your thoughts! Like Thedictator (not sure that name fits, seems like a pretty nice person)

I'm a retired Coach and Public School Teacher, Before I was a teacher I was a missionary to Russia. One day I was doing a lesson on Russia during WWII, and Joseph Stalin, The city I lived at was called Samara ( about 2 and half million people) but was also called Stalingrad after the dictator. One of my beloved students said "so your just like a dictator, you come from the home of the Dictator". The name stuck and that became my nickname.

 

[Albion]

Yes, and Churches of Christ do not believe in sacraments. Faith without action can not save, how ever way anyone wants to say it. Thank you for your comment brother.

Hello. Wouldn't it be best to say that they do not use the term "sacraments" and do not believe that they forgive sins? The CsofC of course are very emphatic about the importance of both the Lord's Supper and Baptism.

By the way, I don't plan to overstay my visit here; and I do appreciate that when this topic caught my eye, no one protested that I was overstepping the forum rules. I definitely am not going to criticize the beliefs or practices of the Restorationist churches on their members' own forum.

 

[A3M0N]

I think its safe to say that we just don't call them sacraments. You're right, both acts are extremely important, sacred even, we just don't use the term sacrament to describe them. To be honest, the word has a very Catholic connotation in my mind (no offense).

No worries! You haven't been divisive or argumentative. I know I leaned somethings from you about what you believe. Civil conversation is never a problem. I appreciate you coming here and talking with us!

 

[Albion]

I think its safe to say that we just don't call them sacraments. You're right, both acts are extremely important, sacred even, we just don't use the term sacrament to describe them. To be honest, the word has a very Catholic connotation in my mind (no offense).

No worries! You haven't been divisive or argumentative. I know I leaned somethings from you about what you believe. Civil conversation is never a problem. I appreciate you coming here and talking with us!

Thank you, A3MON.

 

[Thedictator]

Hello. Wouldn't it be best to say that they do not use the term "sacraments" and do not believe that they forgive sins? The CsofC of course are very emphatic about the importance of both the Lord's Supper and Baptism.

By the way, I don't plan to overstay my visit here; and I do appreciate that when this topic caught my eye, no one protested that I was overstepping the forum rules. I definitely am not going to criticize the beliefs or practices of the Restorationist churches on their members' own forum.

Your right, we believe in them and hold them as very important to our faith. Your right it is mainly words. I can't talk for everyone but as for me you may comment anytime you like, I do not mine courteous constructive criticism, tell us what think about an issue and let's have a constructive, courteous, and Godly debate. We all should want to know the truth even if it goes against our strong held beliefs.

Juvenile behavior I have not time or patients for, like one of the posters on here.

 

[Albion]

Your right, we believe in them and hold them as very important to our faith. Your right it is mainly words. I can't talk for everyone but as for me you may comment anytime you like, I do not mine courteous constructive criticism, tell us what think about an issue and let's have a constructive, courteous, and Godly debate. We all should want to know the truth even if it goes against our strong held beliefs..

I appreciate it.

I don't remember visiting this forum before, but I know that some other forums simply do not want to hear from a non-member under any circumstances.

 

[Thedictator]

I appreciate it.

I don't remember visiting this forum before, but I know that some other forums simply do not want to hear from a non-member under any circumstances.

Well your Welcome here.

 

[A3M0N]

...but I know that some other forums simply do not want to hear from a non-member under any circumstances.

Paul made his mission to reason with those he was trying to reach. If we cut ourselves off from anyone else but those of like faith, who will we spread our message to? Not trying to preach at you, but just where my thinking comes from.

 

[Albion]

Paul made his mission to reason with those he was trying to reach. If we cut ourselves off from anyone else but those of like faith, who will we spread our message to? Not trying to preach at you, but just where my thinking comes from.

I'm right with you on that, my friend. I was thinking just the other day about all these "safe houses" that CF now offers. There are two at least for Adventists, three different forums for Roman Catholics, a new one for "Egalitarian Christians" and on and on. I realized that a lot of people of different religious persuasions that I used to interact with are not to be seen anymore on any forums that they used to frequent. They are still online but now are exclusively talking to people who are just like them. That's a loss for everyone, IMO.

 

[FaithfulPilgrim]

Under the doctrine of baptismal regeneration, baptism has the power to remove sin, faith is not needed and in some cases works independently of God. This is more of a Catholic doctrine. Under Churches of Christ doctrine baptism is an act that God uses to impart salvation, and faith must be present. It is God not baptism who removes sin.

Wouldn't Lutherans say something similar, that baptism is no good without faith? They believe in baptismal regeneration, but not in the Roman Catholic sense.

Also, if someone found faith and was willing to get baptized, but died before he had the chance, then what is his eternal destiny?

Does the churches of Christ recognize baptisms from other churches such as Baptists, or must one be baptized according to the church of Christ standards?

 

[A3M0N]

Wouldn't Lutherans say something similar, that baptism is no good without faith? They believe in baptismal regeneration, but not in the Roman Catholic sense.

I'm not knowledgeable about Lutheran beliefs, I can't help on this one.

Also, if someone found faith and was willing to get baptized, but died before he had the chance, then what is his eternal destiny?

My first thought is that soul would be lost, however and thankfully, I'm not the judge! My fervent prayer would be for Jesus to plead that soul's case to the Father knowing that person's intent to obey and that His grace would extend to that soul. That is why we often quote Ananias speaking to Saul, "And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on his name." (Acts 22:16).

Does the churches of Christ recognize baptisms from other churches such as Baptists, or must one be baptized according to the church of Christ standards?

This would really be up to the elders of the local congregation. If they talk with the individual and it is agreed that the person believed in their heart they were baptized for remission of sins and not as an outward display of faith after having already been saved (via the "sinner's prayer", etc), then the elders may accept their baptism. But usually a person will be baptized for the remission of sins, completing their obedience of the gospel.

 

[A3M0N]

@FaithfulPilgrim, on a total tangent from this topic, I saw on your profile you're from South Carolina. Where about? I was born and raised in/near Charleston. I've been all over since then, but settled in Texas.

 

[Albion]

Wouldn't Lutherans say something similar, that baptism is no good without faith? They believe in baptismal regeneration, but not in the Roman Catholic sense.

I don't think so. The Lutheran view and the RC view are pretty similar. Lutherans would say that words without faith don't change anything, but the 'faith part' of Baptism is either present in the candidate or in the witnesses speaking for the child.

Also, if someone found faith and was willing to get baptized, but died before he had the chance, then what is his eternal destiny?

All the historic, liturgical churches would say that "Baptism of Desire" by one name or another would apply.

 

[FaithfulPilgrim]

@FaithfulPilgrim, on a total tangent from this topic, I saw on your profile you're from South Carolina. Where about? I was born and raised in/near Charleston. I've been all over since then, but settled in Texas.

I was born and raised in the Upstate.

 

[Thedictator]

Wouldn't Lutherans say something similar, that baptism is no good without faith? They believe in baptismal regeneration, but not in the Roman Catholic sense.

Also, if someone found faith and was willing to get baptized, but died before he had the chance, then what is his eternal destiny?

Does the churches of Christ recognize baptisms from other churches such as Baptists, or must one be baptized according to the church of Christ standards?

Your hypothetical question is a straw man, I have some questions for you that answer your question.
#1 What a man want to know about God and Jesus and a missionary starts to teach him about the Gospel and they are both killed before he is able to learn what he need to know to be saved, Will God save him? ( Remember he does not know Christ but wanted to.)
#2 Do you think God is unable to protect those who are seeking him until they are saved?
#3 Have you ever known of a case of your hypothetical question happening? I have not.

It has been my experience that if a person says they were baptize for the remission of sins most will except that baptism. It does not matter where or who does the baptizing.

 

[Thedictator]

Wouldn't Lutherans say something similar, that baptism is no good without faith? They believe in baptismal regeneration, but not in the Roman Catholic sense.

Also, if someone found faith and was willing to get baptized, but died before he had the chance, then what is his eternal destiny?

Does the churches of Christ recognize baptisms from other churches such as Baptists, or must one be baptized according to the church of Christ standards?

Your hypothetical question is a straw man, I have some questions for you that answer your question.
#1 What a man want to know about God and Jesus and a missionary starts to teach him about the Gospel and they are both killed before he is able to learn what he need to know to be saved, Will God save him? ( Remember he does not know Christ but wanted to.)
#2 Do you think God is unable to protect those who are seeking him until they are saved?
#3 Have you ever known of a case of your hypothetical question happening? I have not.

It has been my experience that if a person says they were baptize for the remission of sins most will except that baptism. It does not matter where or who does the baptizing.

 

[Thedictator]

Wouldn't Lutherans say something similar, that baptism is no good without faith? They believe in baptismal regeneration, but not in the Roman Catholic sense.

Also, if someone found faith and was willing to get baptized, but died before he had the chance, then what is his eternal destiny?

Does the churches of Christ recognize baptisms from other churches such as Baptists, or must one be baptized according to the church of Christ standards?

Your hypothetical question is a straw man, I have some questions for you that answer your question.
#1 What a man want to know about God and Jesus and a missionary starts to teach him about the Gospel and they are both killed before he is able to learn what he need to know to be saved, Will God save him? ( Remember he does not know Christ but wanted to.)
#2 Do you think God is unable to protect those who are seeking him until they are saved?
#3 Have you ever known of a case of your hypothetical question happening? I have not.

It has been my experience that if a person says they were baptize for the remission of sins most will except that baptism. It does not matter where or who does the baptizing.

 

[FaithfulPilgrim]

Thanks! Sorry if I came across as hostile, that wasn't my intent.