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Featured Churches and Creation

Discussion in 'Creationism' started by RC Tent, Feb 11, 2019.

  1. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting The Librarian Supporter

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    The Gideons are bible focused and the Bible says the earth is ancient. It even says the hills are eternal.
     
  2. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting The Librarian Supporter

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    If God is responsible for every atom in the Cosmos, then what's the problem with how things change over time? "Change" in man is the focus of all scripture.
     
  3. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting The Librarian Supporter

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    There are none that claim it is false.
     
  4. miamited

    miamited Ted Supporter

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    Hi sky,

    Thanks for you response. Yes, I agree that the Gideons are bible focused.

    I've had people tell me that an IBM Selectric typewriter is ancient, and yet they're less than 70 years old. Ancient is always a relative term. It does not define any specific length of time. If you google 'ancient fathers of the church' you will draw a list of men who are generally less than 2,000 years old. We find in the Proverbs a command that no one is to remove an 'ancient' boundary stone set up by your ancestors. Here, the word ancient is referring to something that couldn't have been, at the time it was written, more than a few hundred, possibly a thousand, years old.

    So, I agree that the Scriptures do refer to the earth as ancient, but I don't agree that such a term necessarily is to mean that it's thousands or millions or billions of years old.

    Eternal is a term to mean that from some point something lasts forever. According to the Scriptures, your soul is eternal. Do you believe that your soul existed billions of years ago? Or rather, once you were born upon the earth you were given an eternal soul? So the hills, once they were created, may well have been created to be eternal. As far as we know from the Scriptures, God is the only one who is both eternal and everlasting from beginning to end. Everything else had a beginning, and once created, may have been created to be eternal.

    God bless,
    In Christ, ted
     
  5. mark kennedy

    mark kennedy Natura non facit saltum Supporter

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    Thinfs change in man through the power of the Holy Spirit. God who created man a living soul is stiil the first cause of newbirth, just as he was the Creator of our first parent Adam.

    Evolution is changes in alleles in populations over time, a process that began at creation, life evolved from there.
     
  6. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting The Librarian Supporter

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    History is always a fiction man creates in his mind. It can never be recreated in reality or considered certain, in any sense except in faith.
     
  7. mark kennedy

    mark kennedy Natura non facit saltum Supporter

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    That's not true, history has subatantive and evidential proofs and disproofs. What your describing is eastern mysticism, notthe stepwise logic of known history.
     
  8. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting The Librarian Supporter

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    In your own mind. But there is no process of proving anything formally, except in Math. Every word of history is a fiction of the writer's ego.
     
  9. miamited

    miamited Ted Supporter

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    Hi sky,

    You should probably define the kind of 'history' that you're referring to. 'Event history' is fairly sure. We all know for example that during the 40's millions of Jews were murdered in death camps. 'Causal history' can be a bit more difficult to pin down. For example, what Hitler or Goering or Himmler were thinking, their thought processes that led them to do or act in a certain way, would likely be up to whoever is telling the story. Similarly, with the U.S. dropping atomic weapons on Japan. No one doubts that we did that. However, the cause and thinking of the players involved is up to interpretation.

    Such things, as far as emotions involved, are also open to interpretation by whoever is telling the story. Americans will say that our dropping the atomic bombs on Japan was the best way for us to stop a bunch of bloodthirsty Japanese from overrunning the world. The Japanese are more likely to say that it was the way for a bunch of bloodthirsty Americans to obliterate tens of thousands of non-combatant civilians.

    God bless,
    In Christ, ted
     
  10. mark kennedy

    mark kennedy Natura non facit saltum Supporter

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    I simply don't think that statement stands up to close scrutiny, it is untrue that history is subjective. People leave a history in their writings, art, culture, buildings, laws, roads and the development of lands, waterways and a broad religious foot print. Many a legacy has been meticulously preserved and not all history is lost to time or subject to the whims and caprices of human imagination, nor is history immune to them.
     
  11. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting The Librarian Supporter

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    I didn't say history was subjective. I said it is fiction created by the writers ego. Each person summarizes what they think they know, and use it to create a fiction entirely based of their own individual experiences and assumptions.

    Talk to two police officers and they will each tell a different story about what happened 60 minutes earlier. Even 5 minutes earlier. They have to have weeks of training to become a good observer of events.
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2019
  12. mark kennedy

    mark kennedy Natura non facit saltum Supporter

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    In college I knew a cop, we took a couple of classes together. A little known fact, if all the witnesses are saying the exact same thing they throw it out. Eye witnesses invariably tell a slightly different story, that would appear to simply be a human quirk of perception. If everyone is telling the exact same thing, the exact same way, it starts to look contrived.

    That's not what we are talking about, historical events, persons and places whether five minutes or five thousand years ago have an objective reality that is discernible. The subjective aspects of human reasoning are certainly a factor but they do not govern the underlying reality and there is such a thing as established history, confirmed and reliable. Calling all history fiction is gross hyperbole, I don't see such a statement having any basis in reality.
     
  13. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting The Librarian Supporter

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    You just explained completely if it were true that there was a objective reality told by multiple people, it would be thrown out as a contrived story. You just explained that every person creates their own version of past events, which is fiction to every other person.

    History, and all scripture, is the writing down of one of those fictions.

    Pauls conversion is a great example, becasue there are no known similar cases where Jesus confronts a sinner and converts them. Not in the last 2000 years or before that, none on record. His fictional account undermines salvation by faith.
     
  14. KomatiiteBIF

    KomatiiteBIF Well-Known Member

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    I would say that I agree with the above, that history is more of a fictional constuct, in the sense that when I pick up a history book or an account of history, what I am looking at is essentially a written description of what someone conjured up in their mind.

    It may or may not be based on factual occurances.

    That's usually why we have things like photographs and audio/video recordings of things, to help us understand history, in addition to our biased writings of it.

    One of my favorite history books goes by the title "a Patriots history of the United States". But there is also a book called "a people's history of the United States".

    Both books describing the history of the US, but both written with different bias and point of views on various events. Both books being based on real occurancea, but not all details are necessarily factual, rather some are likely contrived, with each book in it's entirety being conjured up in the mind based on historic writings.
     
  15. KomatiiteBIF

    KomatiiteBIF Well-Known Member

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    And in regards to police work, we look at why so many people have been arguing for chest cameras for police officers. People prefer video recordings of physical occurance, over the fictional stories that we tell. Despite the fact that our stories are usually (but not always) based on real occurances, often we just don't get things right and we think of memories and do the best we can to record our ideas in words.
     
  16. Queller

    Queller I'm where?

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    I went home once and went to the church I grew up in. The new pastor went on for a good 5 minutes about this cut he got on his knee and how science couldn't explain why it stopped bleeding and how it healed. I so wanted to ask him if he was related to Michael Behe.
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2019
  17. RC Tent

    RC Tent Member

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    My post does not mention a problem with the idea that things can change.

    It refers to the origin of the human race.

    There is more to that than "things change".
     
  18. RC Tent

    RC Tent Member

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    What exactly do you think someone "conjuring something up in their mind" is?

    Where are we supposed to store acquired knowledge? What are we to share it with? Our feet??

    Oh dear, you don't know how biased interpretations of recorded events can be do you? Even what is recorded in the first place by such means is biased.
     
  19. RC Tent

    RC Tent Member

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    Objective fiction created by egos?

    And this is all of the past we are talking about?
     
  20. KomatiiteBIF

    KomatiiteBIF Well-Known Member

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    There's nothing wrong with writing information down. I'm just agreeing with the above statements with respect to the limitations that are present with respect to written records. Alternatively, with a photograph or video footage, in the least, we have an additional means of observation that are beyond certain forms of biased interpretation, and the informations is beyond a form which can be misinterpretted in certain ways.

    A photograph of a cake gives a more clear understanding of said cake, than a verbal description. A verbal description could be misunderstood or loosely described both upon the Initial conjuring and transcription, as well as misunderstood during the ultimate reception and interpretation.

    Which goes back to the original purpose of police officers wearing body cameras. Because cameras allow us to examine events with a greater amount of accuracy in scenarios where written or verbal thoughts otherwise may fail.
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2019
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