Church authority structure

[Hismessenger]

Paul mentions overseers and it is quite possible that all the stuff that Paul had to deal with at the church of Corinth shows how necessary they might have been.

Your still looking at the infancy of the church. By now we should be on meat, not still on the bottle as Paul admonished the Corinthians. They had witnessed the power of God first hand but still sought after fleshly delights. We, on the other hand have not seen, but yet we believe. Why, Because you have the Spirit of truth to show us the way, who can never fail. Man can and it has been shown in the scripture. Peter denied Jesus 3 times even though he had walked with him for three years. He still didn't understand.

To everything there is a season. The office is past but the spirit which held all the power remains to use who ever he chooses. That's what this should be about, Not the office.

hismessenger

 

[pathfinder777]

Your still looking at the infancy of the church. By now we should be on meat, not still on the bottle as Paul admonished the Corinthians. They had witnessed the power of God first hand but still sought after fleshly delights. We, on the other hand have not seen, but yet we believe. Why, Because you have the Spirit of truth to show us the way, who can never fail. Man can and it has been shown in the scripture. Peter denied Jesus 3 times even though he had walked with him for three years. He still didn't understand.

To everything there is a season. The office is past but the spirit which held all the power remains to use who ever he chooses. That's what this should be about, Not the office.

hismessenger

I think you have touched on an important point. Structure or institution is good and even today in an anti-institutional environement one must admit or accept the positive side of that in that it helps keep unity and preserves. On the other hand one of the potential drawbacks could be to inhibit or limit the effect of the Spirit working in individual's lives. The two can be in friction at times. I believe both are important and that the Spirit is involved in both. The ecumenical issue to my mind is how and what could unite both the churches that have an epicopate and those that dont. Obviously there lies the many doctrinal differences.

 

[josephearl]

Paul mentions overseers and it is quite possible that all the stuff that Paul had to deal with at the church of Corinth shows how necessary they might have been.
​

Your still looking at the infancy of the church. By now we should be on meat, not still on the bottle as Paul admonished the Corinthians. They had witnessed the power of God first hand but still sought after fleshly delights. We, on the other hand have not seen, but yet we believe. Why, Because you have the Spirit of truth to show us the way, who can never fail. Man can and it has been shown in the scripture. Peter denied Jesus 3 times even though he had walked with him for three years. He still didn't understand.

To everything there is a season. The office is past but the spirit which held all the power remains to use who ever he chooses. That's what this should be about, Not the office.

hismessenger

On what Scripture do you base the idea that 'the office' is past? And for the record which or what office are you speaking of?
​

 

[Hismessenger]

Josephearl

You asked for scripture that the office is past. You need only look at the scriptures on the holy spirit. It is he who is given to lead and direct us into all truth. This is what they taught on but the world still has not received the love of the truth. It is no different then the Jews in Christ time for they couldn't grasp the truth either. Now there is no need for man other than to obey the spirit in what he would have us to say and do for our purpose in Christ.

hismessenger

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

On what Scripture do you base the idea that 'the office' is past? And for the record which or what office are you speaking of?
​

That the office, and for that matter, the Church itself is past, was one of the core teaching of Harold Camping; we see his track record with his other teachings.

The whole idea that the office is past contradicts Scripture.

 

[PaladinValer]

1) Is the existence of senior pastors, vicars, or priests actually unbiblical?

Priests are mentioned.
Vicars are a type of priest, so mentioned by association.
Pastors...it depends on how you are defining the term.

2) Does the bible say that a team of elders should guide the church?

Presbyteros -> presbyter -> prester -> priest

3) Do people believe that the original function of apostles is adequately taken over by bishops?

Not taken over...continued, through Holy Orders and laying on of hands.

 

[WisdomTree]

1) Is the existence of senior pastors, vicars, or priests actually unbiblical?
2) Does the bible say that a team of elders should guide the church?
3) Do people believe that the original function of apostles is adequately taken over by bishops?

1) No
2) Maybe
3) Yes

 

[TrutherAU]

If we were to follow the pro polity posters position to its logical conclusion there would be no chit chat or opinions thus no CF either.The Pro polity position has its basis in complete Authoritarianism/Pharisaic style rule bordering on dominionism.
The the modest opinions of of lay christians would never be allowed under such a top down authoritarianism because they would be judged to have no place or right to have opinions on important religious matters. So it would be good night CF.
"Fools should be seen & not heard" would be their motto.

All a christian needs for faith is bible and God/religion is merely a hinderance.

 

[ViaCrucis]

If we were to follow the pro polity posters position to its logical conclusion there would be no chit chat or opinions thus no CF either.The Pro polity position has its basis in complete Authoritarianism/Pharisaic style rule bordering on dominionism.
The the modest opinions of of lay christians would never be allowed under such a top down authoritarianism because they would be judged to have no place or right to have opinions on important religious matters. So it would be good night CF.
"Fools should be seen & not heard" would be their motto.

All a christian needs for faith is bible and God/religion is merely a hinderance.

You're missing the point of Christian clergy. Christ did not give us shepherds to lord over the flock, but to serve and minister to the flock.

Your anticlericalism doesn't free you or anyone from authoritarianism, rather all it succeeds in doing is elevating yourself to supreme authority.

Unfortunately many, in the years since the Reformation, managed to lose a Pope in Rome only to establish themselves as their own pope and magisterium. The the papacy of self is a far worse thing than the papacy in Rome--at least the Roman Pontiff is held accountable by others.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[TrutherAU]

You keep going on about following man and traditions of men, but those are just a smoke screen. Continuously ignoring Scripture and outright calling Scripture that doesn't agree with you false coupled with accusing others of "following man" instead of God is a fantastic dish of irony. It's not helping you make your argument, which you could do far better if you actually addressed points raised rather than continue to dodge them.

So what exactly are you going to do about that situation. How are going stop the drift away from church attendence?
I doubt you would have an answer especially being from an eastern orthodox church one of the least relevant & unpopular worship styles in our short attention span, instant gratification, high tech our age. If there is any drift towards churches attendance at all its towards prosperity preaching mega churches these churches are not going to help your Orthodox churches cause. Its one thing to whine but quite another to have solutions.

 

[ViaCrucis]

So what exactly are you going to do about that situation. How are going stop the drift away from church attendence?
I doubt you would have an answer especially being from an eastern orthodox church one of the least relevant & unpopular worship styles in our short attention span, instant gratification, high tech our age. If there is any drift towards churches attendance at all its towards prosperity preaching mega churches these churches are not going to help your Orthodox churches cause. Its one thing to whine but quite another to have solutions.

I'm not Eastern Orthodox.

The goal of the Church is not a numbers game. The "church growth" movement doesn't help the Church.

We help church attendance by being the Church. It is God who brings people into the Church, not us.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[TrutherAU]

You're missing the point of Christian clergy. Christ did not give us shepherds to lord over the flock, but to serve and minister to the flock.

I am not missing any point your prospective on it is your own there are many whom do lord it over the mere flock in fact that maybe the number one reason they get involved in the church in the first place.Your underrating the character of sin which affects clerics as much as anyone.

Your anticlericalism doesn't free you or anyone from authoritarianism, rather all it succeeds in doing is elevating yourself to supreme authority

Supreme authority over my own decisions under God what is wrong with that exactly.

Unfortunately many, in the years since the Reformation, managed to lose a Pope in Rome only to establish themselves as their own pope and magisterium. The the papacy of self is a far worse thing than the papacy in Rome--at least the Roman Pontiff is held accountable by others.

Hahah your joking right the pope & none of the high ranking polity have any accountability until they are exposed by investigative journos or investigative researchers then they start to deny and back track as they have over their pedophile scandals.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Supreme authority over my own decisions under God what is wrong with that exactly.

You don't see a problem with positioning yourself as an unaccountable uber-pope?

Christ instituted a Church, a community, not TrutherAU.

Hahah your joking right the pope & none of the high ranking polity have any accountability until they are exposed by investigative journos or investigative researchers then they start to deny and back track as they have over their pedophile scandals.

You apparently don't have a grasp of how mainstream churches operate.

Pastors/priests/bishops/etc are held accountable. In Roman Catholicism, the Pope is not excluded from this accountability.

The reality of abuses of power does not change the fact that when Christ instituted His Church He established apostles, pastors, bishops, etc. You don't get to ignore Jesus just because you don't like it. That's why TrutherAU doesn't get to be the supreme authority. That belongs solely to Christ alone.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Hahah your joking right the pope & none of the high ranking polity have any accountability until they are exposed by investigative journos or investigative researchers then they start to deny and back track as they have over their pedophile scandals.

Your arguement would have some merit, were there no pedophiles or other scandals outside the Church (Roman or otherwise).

You don't see a problem with positioning yourself as an unaccountable uber-pope?

Christ instituted a Church, a community, not TrutherAU.



You apparently don't have a grasp of how mainstream churches operate.

Pastors/priests/bishops/etc are held accountable. In Roman Catholicism, the Pope is not excluded from this accountability.

The reality of abuses of power does not change the fact that when Christ instituted His Church He established apostles, pastors, bishops, etc. You don't get to ignore Jesus just because you don't like it. That's why TrutherAU doesn't get to be the supreme authority. That belongs solely to Christ alone.

-CryptoLutheran

Well stated Crypto!

 

[TrutherAU]

You apparently don't have a grasp of how mainstream churches operate.

Pastors/priests/bishops/etc are held accountable. In Roman Catholicism, the Pope is not excluded from this accountability.

Blah many large corporate orgs have similar hierarchy. Power breeds Corruption. The sadducees, pharisees all over again. Clearly Jesus has taught you nothing in life maybe you just stick to the OT. Nothing new here next.

The reality of abuses of power does not change the fact that when Christ instituted His Church He established apostles, pastors, bishops, etc.

There is no such FACT you refer to. Christ did not appoint any of these. Jesus carnal body had been crucified well before any of the Nicene creeds, were ever agreed upon. This was all done by man.You seem to be a believer in the Apostolic Succession just like an RC yet you claim to be a lutheran. Maybe luther would be turning in his grave if he saw pple claiming his lutheran tradition being so pro the pope as you are. Maybe your one of these sold out wcc ecumencial protestants this would explain your affinity & defense of the RC.

You don't get to ignore Jesus just because you don't like it. That's why TrutherAU doesn't get to be the supreme authority. That belongs solely to Christ alone.

Good strawman however fail! I have always claimed submission to God on this forum.If you want to play with semantics via the trinity e.g thinking when I say God I do not also mean the son as well then you really are desperate.
Let me set the record straight so you cant play these word games in future.When I say God that means Jesus by default also not just God the Father.

Your arguement would have some merit, were there no pedophiles or other scandals outside the Church (Roman or otherwise)

The merit of the argument I stand by. Because the backlash against christianity has been severe due to these scandals. Unfortunately some very naive plebians actually thought they could rely on the religion now that has all been damaged beyond repair. Modern christianity resembles little more than another kind of degraded cult much like the ancient mystery religions. Indeed the silly incense burning rituals in orthodox churches is exactly the same. Holyness left the building a long long time ago.
You need to listen to what Jesus stated about the hebrew priestly classes & apply them to modern christian clergy also. Jesus message did not stop with rallying against jewish priests. Jesus message about power and its ability to corrupt is as much relevant to high and mighty christian clergy and polity today as it was in jesus aeon. Sin has not changed since the NT.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Blah many large corporate orgs have similar hierarchy. Power breeds Corruption. The sadducees, pharisees all over again. Clearly Jesus has taught you nothing in life maybe you just stick to the OT. Nothing new here next.


There is no such FACT you refer to. Christ did not appoint any of these. Jesus carnal body had been crucified well before any of the Nicene creeds, were ever agreed upon. This was all done by man.You seem to be a believer in the Apostolic Succession just like an RC yet you claim to be a lutheran. Maybe luther would be turning in his grave if he saw pple claiming his lutheran tradition being so pro the pope as you are. Maybe your one of these sold out wcc ecumencial protestants this would explain your affinity & defense of the RC.

You should read a bit more Luther. He had no issues with the structure of the Church but did have issues with certain traditions that caused the Church to deviate from Scripture and certain abuses. Many Lutheran Churches (Synods) from the time of the reformation to present still maintain an Episcopal structure and Apostolic succession. I'm Lutheran Church Canada, and while our polity is not episcopal, many of us, clergy included, refer to our Synod and District Presidents as Bishops, not because of their office, but because of their duties.

Some Lutheran Synods are very liberal, and are "ecumenical"; our Synod and the other Confessional Synods are about as far from ecumenical as one can be.

The Augsburg Confession and the Apology (explanation) of the Augsburg Confession were not intended to destroy the Church of Rome, but to initiate reform. Read them.

Good strawman however fail! I have always claimed submission to God on this forum.If you want to play with semantics via the trinity e.g thinking when I say God I do not also mean the son as well then you really are desperate.
Let me set the record straight so you cant play these word games in future.When I say God that means Jesus by default also not just God the Father.

Me too "God" = "Father, Son and Holy Spirit".

The merit of the argument I stand by. Because the backlash against christianity has been severe due to these scandals. Unfortunately some very naive plebians actually thought they could rely on the religion now that has all been damaged beyond repair. Modern christianity resembles little more than another kind of degraded cult much like the ancient mystery religions. Indeed the silly incense burning rituals in orthodox churches is exactly the same. Holyness left the building a long long time ago.
You need to listen to what Jesus stated about the hebrew priestly classes & apply them to modern christian clergy also. Jesus message did not stop with rallying against jewish priests.

There has always been a backlash against Christianity by one or more groups. It happened in Christ's time (He was crucified for it), It happened in the time of the Apostles. One could even call the Council of Nicaea the first reformation and they dealt with scandal and heterodox teaching way back in the 4th Cent. Scripture tells us that there will always be persecution and tribulation until our Lord's return.

Pointing fingers at the short comings of other Christians only adds to the scandalous way non Christians and weak Christians see the Church. We all would look a lot better to outsiders if we spent more time pointing "to" Christ and to heaven, than pointing "at" other Christians. (Note the up pointed finger; this guy's got it right).

Jesus message about power and its ability to corrupt is as much relevant to high and mighty christian clergy and polity today as it was in jesus aeon. Sin has not changed since the NT.

The offices are not evil, but sometimes those who hold such offices are; I agree, these offices should not be about "power"; as they are truly meant to be offices of "service".

 

[TrutherAU]

There has always been a backlash against Christianity by one or more groups. It happened in Christ's time (He was crucified for it), It happened in the time of the Apostles. One could even call the Council of Nicaea the first reformation and they dealt with scandal and heterodox teaching way back in the 4th Cent. Scripture tells us that there will always be persecution and tribulation until our Lord's return.

Completely different events in ancient history you seem to have your facts reverse order as though the Roman church came before christ rather than Jesus coming before the roman religion. Lets get some dates and facts sorted the Council of Nicea was 325 A.D hundreds of years after christ nothing to do with jesus. The Council of Nicea was little more than all recently converted Roman pagans now suddenly deciding to become christian Bishops and now deciding on orthodox christian theology. How do i know this?
From 378 A.D -395 A.D under Roman Emperor Theodosius 1; was the start of the major conversion of Roman pagans into roman catholics before 378 A.D most roman citizenry and noble classes had still been Roman pagans this was 40 years (325-378 A.D) after the council of nicea inbetween times most roman pagans like mithrians had not even converted to christianity.
My point is this was all the work of men(pagan men) not christ most of these roman pagans formed what we recognise today as the Roman catholic church hence in time to become christianity.
All romans had originally been roman pagans and rather than drop their beliefs and practices most simply carried them over into the new state religion, along other Roman myths like ovid. My point in showing all this is that the persecution of jesus has zilch to do with the attacks on the orthodox church which is the argument you are attempting to make here.

Pointing fingers at the short comings of other Christians only adds to the scandalous way non Christians and weak Christians see the Church. We all would look a lot better to outsiders if we spent more time pointing "to" Christ and to heaven, than pointing "at" other Christians. (Note the up pointed finger; this guy's got it right).

I am pointing fingers alright that is my intention I am no friend or ally of orthodox style churches I ve havent been for years. As for mainline protestant churches they are on the way out they have themselves to blame for selling out to ecumenism in the 1950s & 60s which has done nothing but derange the inerrancy scripture based on the original Calvinist model which dates back to reformation years. Havent you of heard of Ecumencism do you know what it is and the effects it has had literal gospel inerrancy. Most the liberal exegesis that has crept into post modern christianity can be traced to ecumencial agreements in the 1960s between the Vatican and the World Council of Churches it happened not long after Vatican II in 1964 this can all be proved.
".

The offices are not evil, but sometimes those who hold such offices are; I agree, these offices should not be about "power"; as they are truly meant to be offices of "service

The whole institution is based on a lie and thus a foundation of sand it will not stand in this age we will see it finally collapse.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Completely different events in ancient history you seem to have your facts reverse order as though the Roman church came before christ rather than Jesus coming before the roman religion. Lets get some dates and facts sorted the Council of Nicea was 325 A.D hundreds of years after christ nothing to do with jesus. The Council of Nicea was little more than all recently converted Roman pagans now suddenly deciding to become christian Bishops and now deciding on orthodox christian theology. How do i know this?
From 378 A.D -395 A.D under Roman Emperor Theodosius 1; was the start of the major conversion of Roman pagans into roman catholics before 378 A.D most roman citizenry and noble classes had still been Roman pagans this was 40 years (325-378 A.D) after the council of nicea inbetween times most roman pagans like mithrians had not even converted to christianity.
My point is this was all the work of men(pagan men) not christ most of these roman pagans formed what we recognise today as the Roman catholic church hence in time to become christianity.
All romans had originally been roman pagans and rather than drop their beliefs and practices most simply carried them over into the new state religion, along other Roman myths like ovid. My point in showing all this is that the persecution of jesus has zilch to do with the attacks on the orthodox church which is the argument you are attempting to make here.

Really; attacks against the Church are attacks against Christ.

Yes, different. A hundred years from now there will be other different issues motivating different attacks.

I am pointing fingers alright that is my intention I am no friend or ally of orthodox style churches I ve havent been for years. As for mainline protestant churches they are on the way out they have themselves to blame for selling out to ecumenism in the 1950s & 60s which has done nothing but derange the inerrancy scripture based on the original Calvinist model which dates back to reformation years. Havent you of heard of Ecumencism do you know what it is and the effects it has had literal gospel inerrancy. Most the liberal exegesis that has crept into post modern christianity can be traced to ecumencial agreements in the 1960s between the Vatican and the World Council of Churches it happened not long after Vatican II in 1964 this can all be proved.
".

I agree that ecumenism has had some effect; but consumerism and the resulting instant gratification associated with a self centred society and the "me generation" have had a far greater effect on the decline of the Churches than anything else.

The whole institution is based on a lie and thus a foundation of sand it will not stand in this age we will see it finally collapse.

You talk of the inerrant nature of Scripture which mentions the various offices of Bishop, Presbyter and Deacon. Then you claim that these offices are based on a lie; make up your mind, which is it?

 

[TrutherAU]

Really; attacks against the Church are attacks against Christ.

Are you really a lutheran? or simply a catholic fraud.
Your reasoning is remarkably similar to the Hebrew priests attitude towards jesus which had him crucified.
Please do try to separate Religion from God & realise they are two different things.You misunderstand the existential nature of God. God does not need an institution God is transcendent outside of time & space.

I agree that ecumenism has had some effect; but consumerism and the resulting instant gratification associated with a self centred society and the "me generation" have had a far greater effect on the decline of the Churches than anything else.

You clearly agree with nothing I have stated you show full support for ecumenism thus far by your conventional comments in support of the RC. This is strange considering you claim to be a lutheran protestant. In regards to your comments concerning the symptoms of capitalism self centered, me generation, instant grat etc. Churches support capitalism they do not support socialism therefore claiming to care about such issue looks pretty weak to me. I am sure like most nth american christians your not a socialist of any kind. If such things are affecting some churches then it seems they have become victims of the system they help sustain too bad for them.

You talk of the inerrant nature of Scripture which mentions the various offices of Bishop, Presbyter and Deacon. Then you claim that these offices are based on a lie; make up your mind, which is it?

I dont know what you mean by that statement. The above maybe the ecclesiastic polity of orthodox churches however not the polity structure of many reformed churches e.g baptists, pentecostals good examples, which are completely autonomous based on the local church. Also all the original puritan fellowships followed this model. Such churches are lead by a council of elders, far more decentralised & autonomous than the model you are referring to.
Clearly you havent been to many churches besides your own then, otherwise you wouldnt be under the illusion your type of structure is universal.Perhaps you need to visit a few different churches. Secondly this is church ecclesiology your talking about in your above comment it has nothing to do with the inerrancy of scripture which leads me to think you dont even know what inerrancy of scripture is.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Are you really a lutheran? or simply a catholic fraud.
Your reasoning is remarkably similar to the Hebrew priests attitude towards jesus which had him crucified.
Please do try to separate Religion from God & realise they are two different things.You misunderstand the existential nature of God. God does not need an institution God is transcendent outside of time & space.

You clearly agree with nothing I have stated you show full support for ecumenism thus far by your conventional comments in support of the RC. This is strange considering you claim to be a lutheran protestant. In regards to your comments concerning the symptoms of capitalism self centered, me generation, instant grat etc. Churches support capitalism they do not support socialism therefore claiming to care about such issue looks pretty weak to me. I am sure like most nth american christians your not a socialist of any kind. If such things are affecting some churches then it seems they have become victims of the system they help sustain too bad for them.

You seem to know so much more about my Church than I do. Likewise, your anti Catholic agenda is very clear.

Le me try one last time to explain a few things...

If you truly understood as much about Lutheran theology as you claim you would understand that Confessional Lutherans do not consider themselves "protestant"; that is a derogatory term imposed on us by the Roman Catholic Church. It's very Catholic of you to call us such.

Likewise, if you knew our theology you would also know about the theology of the Two Churches; let me explain:

There is the "Visible Church" and the "Invisible Church". The VC consists of all of the Churches, denominations, Congregations, institutions, buildings etc. and it's membership is made up of both believers and non believers. This Church is also known as The Church Militant.

Then there is the IC; which consists of ALL faithful believers and only faithful believers; those living here on earth and those who have gone before and now reside with our Lord in Heaven, regardless of the Church or Denomination that they belong to. Christ is the head of this Church, as he is the head of the Visible Church. This Church is also known as the Church Triumphant; The Communion of Saints; and as stated in the Creed, the One Holy catholic and apostolic Church.

God does not need an institution God is transcendent outside of time & space.

I agree with this regarding the IC; however without governance, the visible Church would be nothing but an anarchistic assembly of individuals each being a Church of one.

I dont know what you mean by that statement. The above maybe the ecclesiastic polity of orthodox churches however not the polity structure of many reformed churches e.g baptists, pentecostals good examples, which are completely autonomous based on the local church. Also all the original puritan fellowships followed this model. Such churches are lead by a council of elders, far more decentralised & autonomous than the model you are referring to.
Clearly you havent been to many churches besides your own then, otherwise you wouldnt be under the illusion your type of structure is universal.Perhaps you need to visit a few different churches. Secondly this is church ecclesiology your talking about in your above comment it has nothing to do with the inerrancy of scripture which leads me to think you dont even know what inerrancy of scripture is.

The offices are Scriptural; the polity is not defined in Scripture and are a matter of human tradition whether that of the RCC, Orthodox, or reformed.

My particular Synod is more Congregationalist is structure. Other Confessional Synods with which we have fellowship are Episcopal in structure, some still have what the RCC calls Apostolic Succession. Polity does not define the Church, theology does.

Roman Catholic polity is not the reason we are not in fellowship with Rome, nor is the majority of their theology and practice at odds with ours; however, in light of Scripture, there are some theological issues, serious issues that we could not resolve 500 years ago, and many of these issues remain unresolved to this day.

You are not going to like this, but it is a fact that there are many more theological issues which separate and prevent us from being in Communion with any and all of the reformed protestant Churches and denominations.

Clearly you havent been to many churches besides your own then, otherwise you wouldnt be under the illusion your type of structure is universal.

Oh, but I have; for many years I worked closely with members and Clergy of many different Churches and denominations as a Funeral Director; Catholic, Lutheran (both Confessional and Liberal Synods), Anglican, and reformed protestant (many mainline and many independent and free Congregations as well); also Amish and Mennonite. Besides these Churches, I also served both Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses.

Please be careful here and be aware that there are rules against flaming individuals, Churches, and theologies.