Church authority structure

[Hismessenger]

The word says to trust no man. So why is it that the religious body are so quick to follow a man when we now have the holy spirit to lead and guide us into all truth. Is there a man on earth who can do this? Is the word and direction of God of no effect?

hismessenger

 

[Rick Otto]

The foundation of the faith is laid. The original function is mission accomplished.

 

[ivebeenshown]

The word says to trust no man. So why is it that the religious body are so quick to follow a man when we now have the holy spirit to lead and guide us into all truth. Is there a man on earth who can do this? Is the word and direction of God of no effect?

hismessenger

Paul said God appointed teachers and leaders within His Church. Paul also said those who promote sedition (opposition to official leaders) and heresy (dissent towards official teaching) wouldn't inherit the kingdom of God.

 

[Hismessenger]

Paul said he gave , past tense. They were there for a time and a season to wit now we have the Holy spirit as our teacher. This is why the elect won't be deceived because they will only heed the voice of the master through the Holy spirit. It is a vertical relationship between you and God and then a horizontal between you and I. That's the way it is and understanding brings all things into clarity. It has nothing to with opposition to non official leaders for God is no respecter of persons and warned of this very thing in Matt 20;

Mat 20:25 But Jesus called them to [Himself] and said, "You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and those who are great exercise authority over them.
Mat 20:26 "Yet it shall not be so among you; but whoever desires to become great among you, let him be your servant.
Mat 20:27 "And whoever desires to be first among you, let him be your slave--
Mat 20:28 "just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many."

Tell where you see a difference in today's churches. Pastors anniversaries and pastor appreciation day and pastors vacation while the laity suffer to serve them and gain nothing in return. Kind of sound like Matt 20 doesn't it!

hismessenger

 

[Hismessenger]

If God says this about man, why would he tell you to do otherwise than what He has said?

Psa 62:9 Surely men of low degree [are] vanity, [and] men of high degree [are] a lie: to be laid in the balance, they [are] altogether [lighter] than vanity.

Psa 118:8 [It is] better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man.

Psa 118:9 [It is] better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in princes.

Isa 2:22 Cease ye from man, whose breath [is] in his nostrils: for wherein is he to be accounted of?

Isa 31:3 Now the Egyptians [are] men, and not God; and their horses flesh, and not spirit. When the LORD shall stretch out his hand, both he that helpeth shall fall, and he that is holpen shall fall down, and they all shall fail together.

Isa 37:6 And Isaiah said unto them, Thus shall ye say unto your master, Thus saith the LORD, Be not afraid of the words that thou hast heard, wherewith the servants of the king of Assyria have blasphemed me.

Jer 17:5 Thus saith the LORD; Cursed [be] the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD.

Jer 17:6 For he shall be like the heath in the desert, and shall not see when good cometh; but shall inhabit the parched places in the wilderness, [in] a salt land and not

Who's report will you believe?

hismessenger

 

[ivebeenshown]

Paul said he gave , past tense. They were there for a time and a season to wit now we have the Holy spirit as our teacher. This is why the elect won't be deceived because they will only heed the voice of the master through the Holy spirit. It is a vertical relationship between you and God and then a horizontal between you and I. That's the way it is and understanding brings all things into clarity. It has nothing to with opposition to non official leaders for God is no respecter of persons and warned of this very thing in Matt 20;

Tell where you see a difference in today's churches. Pastors anniversaries and pastor appreciation day and pastors vacation while the laity suffer to serve them and gain nothing in return. Kind of sound like Matt 20 doesn't it!

hismessenger

Actually, God promised that "thine eyes shall see thy teachers: And thine ears shall hear a word behind thee, saying, This is the way, walk ye in it, when ye turn to the right hand, and when ye turn to the left." (Isaiah 30:20-21)

It is unfortunate that you, as a child of God, do not believe God's promise applies to you.

Please, receive the promise in faith, so you may see who your teachers are.

 

[ivebeenshown]

If God says this about man, why would he tell you to do otherwise than what He has said?

Who's report will you believe?

hismessenger

Why do you pit the Word of God against the Word of God? From the letter to the Hebrews: "Have confidence in your leaders and submit to their authority, because they keep watch over you as those who must give an account. Do this so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no benefit to you."

When we trust the teachers that God appointed, we trust God's promise found in Isaiah 30:20-21.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Paul said he gave , past tense. They were there for a time and a season to wit now we have the Holy spirit as our teacher. This is why the elect won't be deceived because they will only heed the voice of the master through the Holy spirit. It is a vertical relationship between you and God and then a horizontal between you and I. That's the way it is and understanding brings all things into clarity. It has nothing to with opposition to non official leaders for God is no respecter of persons and warned of this very thing in Matt 20;

Tell where you see a difference in today's churches. Pastors anniversaries and pastor appreciation day and pastors vacation while the laity suffer to serve them and gain nothing in return. Kind of sound like Matt 20 doesn't it!

hismessenger

Such an interpretation seems to contradict Scripture. I think Martin Luther summed things up quite well in these excerpts taken from the "Table of Duties" included in his Small Catechism; please note that these are not his words, but the Word of God from His Inspired Scriptures:

Certain passages of scripture for various holy orders and positions,
admonishing them about their duties and responsibilities

For Bishops, Pastors, and Preachers.​

A bishop must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behavior, given to hospitality, apt to teach; not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; one that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; not a novice; holding fast the faithful Word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers. 1 Tim. 3:2ff ; Titus 1:6.

​

What the Hearers Owe to Their Pastors.​

Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the Gospel should live of the Gospel. 1 Cor. 9:14. Let him that is taught in the Word communicate unto him that teacheth in all good things. Gal. 6:6. Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honor, especially they who labor in the Word and doctrine. For the Scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn; and the laborer is worthy of his reward. 1 Tim. 5:17-18. Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves; for they watch for your souls as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy and not with grief; for that is unprofitable for you. Heb. 13:17.]​

The whole Catechism can be found here: + The Small Catechism

For me, choosing between what I think, and what Scripture says, Scripture wins every time.

 

[ivebeenshown]

For me, choosing between what I think, and what Scripture says, Scripture wins every time.

I love this attitude! I think we should all persist in this style of attitude. The problem we all inevitably encounter is that we subconsciously add things that aren't there, making illogical assumptions. But if we honestly seek the truth of the Spirit and persist, we will come to a fuller understanding of the Word of God.

May we all grow in wisdom, not of the world, but of God.

 

[Hismessenger]

If men can do this, then why send the Holy Spirit who is the only true pastor who watches over your soul. Can man do this? As I said earlier, what was said in those passages 2000 years ago were for the building of the church, but when the Holy spirit fell, who are we suppose to ask for God's truth. Men who are devoid of the truth or the spirit of truth? It may sound strange because there are too many sheep following to the cliffs edge and when they get there it may be to late to turn around. Now is the time of salvation and it comes from seeking the Holy spirit to do what he is sent to do. Guide us into all truth.

hismessenger

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

If men can do this, then why send the Holy Spirit who is the only true pastor who watches over your soul. Can man do this? As I said earlier, what was said in those passages 2000 years ago were for the building of the church, but when the Holy spirit fell, who are we suppose to ask for God's truth. Men who are devoid of the truth or the spirit of truth? It may sound strange because there are too many sheep following to the cliffs edge and when they get there it may be to late to turn around. Now is the time of salvation and it comes from seeking the Holy spirit to do what he is sent to do. Guide us into all truth.

hismessenger

I agree with you to a point. Again Luther explains the work of the Holy Spirit very well in his Small Catechism regarding the 3rd article of the Apostles Creed:

The Third Article.
​

Of Sanctification.

​

I believe in the Holy Ghost (Spirit); one holy Christian (catholic) Church, the communion of saints; the forgiveness of sins; the resurrection of the body; and the life everlasting. Amen.

​

What does this mean?--Answer.


I believe that I cannot by my own reason or strength believe in Jesus Christ, my Lord, or come to Him; but the Holy Ghost has called me by the Gospel, enlightened me with His gifts, sanctified and kept me in the true faith; even as He calls, gathers, enlightens, and sanctifies the whole Christian Church on earth, and keeps it with Jesus Christ in the one true faith; in which Christian Church He forgives daily and richly all sins to me and all believers, and at the last day will raise up me and all the dead, and will give to me and to all believers in Christ everlasting life. This is most certainly true.

Let us also be mindful of Acts Chapter 2; here we see that the Holy Spirit is given to the Church, and works through, the Apostles. The Holy Spirit continues this work today within the Church through all of us, but especially through those who have been called by the Holy spirit to minister within and too the Church; the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church which is confessed in the Nicene Creed.

Regardless of how one views Apostolic Succession, the bottom line is that the Holy Spirit works through the Church, through people, to continue the work of the Apostles which began back at Acts.

Likewise Scripture commands us (the Church) to teach, baptize and forgive/bind sin; the only way that the Church can do this in a unified, consistent, focused way is the way that we are shown in Scripture, through Pastors, Bishops, Deacons, etc. We see this pattern maintained right through the Bible from beginning to end. In the OT we see the Prophets, Judges, Kings, Priests; in the NT we see Priests, Rabbis, the Apostles, Bishops, Pastors, etc. Even in the last book, The Revelation of St. John, each of the 7 letters to the 7 Churches are addressed to the "Angel" (Angel=messenger) of each Church, that is their Bishop/Pastor. After the NT we learn that this pattern is continuing from the record provided for us by the ECFs; a pattern which will, at God's direction through the power of the Holy Spirit, continue to the end of days, and possibly even beyond in Heaven; as St. John's Revelation Chapter 4:4 tells us of the 24 Elders seated with Christ. In Chapter 5:5 one of the Elders is teaching, in 5:8 the Elders worshiping and praying. In 11:3-8 God tells us of two witness sent to teach.

The Holy Spirit has, and will continue to call people to lead our Lord's Church; to reject Pastoral leadership is rejecting the model established by God through the Holy Spirit and perpetuated throughout the whole history of mankind; a model reaffirmed by Christ, through the Holy Spirit and the Apostles; a model followed by Churches which remain Apostolic through the teachings of the Holy Spirit by the Apostles.

God bless.

 

[Hismessenger]

to reject Pastoral leadership is rejecting the model established by God through the Holy Spirit and perpetuated throughout the whole history of mankind; a model reaffirmed by Christ, through the Holy Spirit and the Apostles; a model followed by Churches which remain Apostolic through the teachings of the Holy Spirit by the Apostles.

First off, Christ choose the Apostles,man did not. Secondly, were the Apostles able to ordained new Apostles who walked in the same authority as was given them by Christ or for that matter where in the scripture can you show me where they ordained anyone to walk in their mantle. After the Apostles died,

What miracles can you recite which were done by those ordained of men. This is a religious mindset just as the Israelites wanted a king to be like the rest of the world, so is this pastoral leadership.

A simple question for all to meditate on. If you were driving through the countryside and came across an accident in which a person was mortally wounded, would you minister the word for them if they were unsaved or would you tell them, don't die, I have to go get my pastor.

The truth should be self evident for you are the only pastor ,preacher which they may hear before they pass on to the other side. This is the understanding that the Holy Spirit gives to you that you may be of service to the master. The problem is there are to many sheep who don't want to pick up their cross and follow where the master leads and this is even in the study of the word. Let the pastor study and you just sit there and accept all that he says because it sounds good but in reality, he is leading you down the wide path.

Study to show thyself approved. If any man lacks understanding, let him ask of the Holy spirit and he will answer you liberally. Man can't do this. That's why the word says to trust no man and call no man father as in relationship to the spirit of God.

hismessenger

 

[Hismessenger]

Here are a number of scripture which speak of the ministration of the Holy spirit. Look upon them and see that no where does it say the spirit will tell the pastor and he will tell it to you. It is a vertical relationship between you and God linked by the Holy Spirit. It does not say between you, man, the holy spirit and God. No where no how. Please read and hear what thus sayeth the spirit of God.

Jhn 14:16,17,26; Jhn 16:7,13,14; Luk 24:49; Act 2:33
Jhn 8:42; Rev 22:1
Jhn 16:14,15; Act 2:32,33; Act 5:32; Act 15:8; 1Cr 1:6; Hbr 2:4; 1Jo 5:6-10

hismessenger

 

[ivebeenshown]

First off, Christ choose the Apostles,man did not.

Christ appointed the twelve in person, but Peter and the 120 appointed someone to fill in for Judas' vacant office.

Secondly, were the Apostles able to ordained new Apostles who walked in the same authority as was given them by Christ or for that matter where in the scripture can you show me where they ordained anyone to walk in their mantle.

In Acts 1:15-26, Peter calls upon the 120 disciples to appoint someone to Judas' office since he had died. They cast lots and appoint Mathias to the ministry. Note that Peter asked God to manifest his power in the casting of the lots.

 

[Hismessenger]

But Christ chose Paul to be the twelth apostle. Apostles were chosen by Christ, not man as they tried to do. What mention of Matthias is made other than him being chosen by lot. I think you should take a look at the scriptures I posted before you reply with the standard religious jargon being taught in the buildings. Praise teams and name it and claim it and dance ministries are all looking to bring the world into the church rather than taking the church into the world as we are given to do. No FEAR for the truth has already overcome the lies of Satan.

Peter did what most practicing christians do today. They ask God to sanction their actions rather than asking God what they should do. Did they consult the Holy Spirit for guidance before they decided to cast lots? Answer NO. They decided to cast lots and then asked God for his blessings instead of his direction.

hismessenger

 

[Rick Otto]

Christ appointed the twelve in person, but Peter and the 120 appointed someone to fill in for Judas' vacant office.
In Acts 1:15-26, Peter calls upon the 120 disciples to appoint someone to Judas' office since he had died. They cast lots and appoint Mathias to the ministry. Note that Peter asked God to manifest his power in the casting of the lots.

Peter was known for being impulsive. It's almost as though he thought a mistake had been made & he could correct it.
John 6:70: Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

It isn't clear God answered Peter's prayer to 'show who You have chosen', or that God even chose anyone else. Jesus is also God & He chose Judas.

Here is a cogent case for believing Judas is in heaven.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

First off, Christ choose the Apostles,man did not. Secondly, were the Apostles able to ordained new Apostles who walked in the same authority as was given them by Christ or for that matter where in the scripture can you show me where they ordained anyone to walk in their mantle. After the Apostles died,

Really? Acts and the Epistles are full of references to those who were appointed and selected to lead and direct the faithful.

What miracles can you recite which were done by those ordained of men. This is a religious mindset just as the Israelites wanted a king to be like the rest of the world, so is this pastoral leadership.

Recorded histories of the Saints found outside of Scripture are full of references to miracles attributed to many not only while they lived, but sometimes even after their death; granted, some may be exaggerations and fabrications. Now, you will argue that this is not in Scripture; be mindful that you are arguing against the Pastoral office, not because there is no evidence in Scripture, but because it's in your heart.

A simple question for all to meditate on. If you were driving through the countryside and came across an accident in which a person was mortally wounded, would you minister the word for them if they were unsaved or would you tell them, don't die, I have to go get my pastor.

Something else you must have missed in Scripture is the "Priesthood" of all believers. Scripture also tells us that what we do for others, we do for Christ.

The truth should be self evident for you are the only pastor ,preacher which they may hear before they pass on to the other side. This is the understanding that the Holy Spirit gives to you that you may be of service to the master. The problem is there are to many sheep who don't want to pick up their cross and follow where the master leads and this is even in the study of the word. Let the pastor study and you just sit there and accept all that he says because it sounds good but in reality, he is leading you down the wide path.

Likewise, there are many who for what ever reason, chose to defy leadership, not only in the Church, but in the secular world as well. Mankind is rebellious, our egos make us rebelious, our human reason and free will convinces us that we know better. Ego got Adam and Eve into trouble, and their trouble is ours. We think we know better than God.

Study to show thyself approved. If any man lacks understanding, let him ask of the Holy spirit and he will answer you liberally. Man can't do this. That's why the word says to trust no man and call no man father as in relationship to the spirit of God.

Good advice, the Holy Spirit will answer, however without full submission to our Lord; we either will not hear, or hear only what we want too.

God bless.

 

[Hismessenger]

Likewise, there are many who for what ever reason, chose to defy leadership, not only in the Church, but in the secular world as well.

My sheep know my voice, so the question is who's leadership are we to follow, man of the Holy Spirit. Be in the world but not of the world.

Jhn 5:43 (KJV) — I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

Why is man so prone to believe another man over the word of God. I said it before and I will say it again. We are in a vertical relationship with God. No pastor, priest, not even Moses or Elijah will be able to save you in the day of destruction if you don't heed the truth of God while there is still breath in your body. The Holy Spirit is the key. He is given to all who believe and are submitted to the will of God, for there is no greater anointing which can be had by anyone if Christ doesn't so ordain it of himself.

One spirit which works all in all according to your submission to Him.

hismessenger

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

My sheep know my voice, so the question is who's leadership are we to follow, man of the Holy Spirit. Be in the world but not of the world.

Why is man so prone to believe another man over the word of God. I said it before and I will say it again. We are in a vertical relationship with God. No pastor, priest, not even Moses or Elijah will be able to save you in the day of destruction if you don't heed the truth of God while there is still breath in your body. The Holy Spirit is the key. He is given to all who believe and are submitted to the will of God, for there is no greater anointing which can be had by anyone if Christ doesn't so ordain it of himself.

One spirit which works all in all according to your submission to Him.

hismessenger

Clergy; Pastors, Priests, Bishops, Elders, Deacons, Ministers, Teachers etc. do not save us; only Christ through faith given by the Holy Spirit. That being said, they do lead us and direct us, they admonish us when we err, they keep us focused on the Gospel, they lead us by example, they encourage us when we are discouraged, they help us find our way back to the Lord when we stray; they ensure that we find and receive all of God's grace in both word and sacrament: If this was not God's Divine Will, why would our Lord admonish us with His Holy Words which the Rev. Dr. Luther quoted; which I quoted in my post above?

I do not mean to offend, but there are so many today who hold the same opinions that you do, and in effect they are members of a Church which has only one member; themselves. Scripture tells us Christ is with us when two or three gather. Pastors are like Coaches who rally a team to a common purpose; submission and service to our Lord Jesus Christ. Even in the Seven Letters in Revelation, our Lord directed St. John to "Wright" to the Angels (Pastors) of each Church; yes, each Church had a Pastor, a person due respect, a person whom our Lord felt was worthy of being addressed as leaders of their flock.

I'm sorry, while you quote a verse here and a verse there, your view of things does seem to defy Scripture. If you are going to hold some of Scripture and dismiss other parts; how do you choose? If part of Scripture is wrong, then all of it is wrong? Form me Scripture is all or nothing.

 

[ivebeenshown]

Clergy; Pastors, Priests, Bishops, Elders, Deacons, Ministers, Teachers etc. do not save us; only Christ through faith given by the Holy Spirit.

I would like to interject: Peter exhorted the people to 'Save yourselves from this generation', and Paul told Timothy that if he continued in the doctrine, he would save himself and those that heard him.

Christ's ministry entailed reconciling men to God, and Christ entrusted his ministry to his Church, some members called to perform different duties of that ministry, but all called to share the Gospel in deed and truth, that the world may be reconciled to God by the promulgation of the living Word.