Church authority structure

[ViaCrucis]

In order to claim copyist error there needs to be some sort of manuscript or textual support for such a claim.

Such as the Comma Johanneum or variants of the ending of Mark.

To claim copyist error wholly on the basis that the text disagrees with presuppositional doctrine is to place oneself above the authority of Scripture.

Unless there is some reason to question the textual authenticity of Acts 14:14 then this is simply a lot of hot air in order to maintain a fundamentally unbiblical opinion.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Hismessenger]

I believe it is a reasonable conclusion for it has been shown that there were errors in the translations so why can it not be the case here. It is the only scripture in all the scriptures where he appears where he is called an apostle. Can you deny this truth from the word for I have already given you scripture which shows him as bringing his offering and placing it before the apostles. It doesn't say, placing it at the feet of the other , note I said the other apostles. Thus implying that he also was an apostle. You hold to the doctrines of men, I will follow the lead of the spirit.

hismessenger

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

I believe it is a reasonable conclusion for it has been shown that there were errors in the translations so why can it not be the case here. It is the only scripture in all the scriptures where he appears where he is called an apostle. Can you deny this truth from the word for I have already given you scripture which shows him as bringing his offering and placing it before the apostles. It doesn't say, placing it at the feet of the other , note I said the other apostles. Thus implying that he also was an apostle. You hold to the doctrines of men, I will follow the lead of the spirit.

hismessenger

If the Spirit is leading you to deny the God-breathed Holy Scripture, I'm thinking that it's time to assess which spirit is doing the leading; I'm thinking that it may not be "the" Spirit; rather, another kind of spirit which Scripture frequently warns us about.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Barnabas was not an apostle but a disciple and devout christian man who spoke well and had a heart for God.
This passage from above shows that he was not numbered among the apostles. I would surmise that Acts 14:14 is a copy error by one of the scribes in translation. Can you show me another scripture which calls Barnabas a apostle. I don't think so.

hismessenger

You have to do better than that, we are not naive rubes that can be swayed by emotion and contrived ideas.

You can not pick and choose which Scripture is correct and which is not; by doing so you call all of Scripture into question. The only thing that your argument proves is that you can change Scripture to say what you want it to; I hope you do not claim to hold Sola Scriptura.

Barnabas is an Apostle, so is my Pastor who leads us and teaches us the "one Holy catholic and Apostolic" faith. How do I know this? Scripture, not just bits and pieces of it, tells me so.

Pax Domini

BTW, this is a debate and discussion forum; those of us deserve the courtesy of a reply, when we reply to a post. This is not a pulpit or a soapbox; it's all about interaction.

Now, if one is unable to respond, or post a suitable, reliable, well founded rebuttal or argument, then one should step out of the thread, and walk away.

The ball is in your court.

 

[Hismessenger]

If the Spirit is leading you to deny the God-breathed Holy Scripture

I didn't deny the scripture but simply made an observation to which there is no valid and documented proof other than the one scripture presented, where there are multiples of scripture which show otherwise. Who is it that is really denying what is written. In a multitude of witnesses shall a thing be established. There are a multitude of scripture verses the one witness. And the word is the only true witness we have besides the Holy spirit to go by. God is the judge of the quick and the dead.

hismessenger

 

[bbbbbbb]

I didn't deny the scripture but simply made an observation to which there is no valid and documented proof other than the one scripture presented, where there are multiples of scripture which show otherwise. Who is it that is really denying what is written. In a multitude of witnesses shall a thing be established. There are a multitude of scripture verses the one witness. And the word is the only true witness we have besides the Holy spirit to go by. God is the judge of the quick and the dead.

hismessenger

Where are the multitude of scriptures that state that Barnabas was not an apostle? Also, what do you do with other passages which list apostles other than the thirteen (the surviving eleven plus Matthias and Paul)? Romans 16:7 is one example.

 

[Hismessenger]

I posted the links to 59 scriptures in post 49. The only mention of Barnabas as an apostle is the one scripture pointed out.

Deu 19:15


"One witness shall not rise against a man concerning any iniquity or any sin that he commits; by the mouth of two or three witnesses the matter shall be established

All the scripture in those links speak of the apostles in more than one verse. All that I have stated is that it is a reasonable deduction that there could have been a transcript error in that passages and that no where else in scripture is Barnabas called an apostle. Yet you have at least 60 scripture in which there is only one verse which seems to be the crux of the debate which is being defended because of tradition rather than truth. Matthias is also only mention in the scripture of his choosing by whom, man, not Christ. There is more mention of the other candidate Justus, than there is of Matthias in scripture.

It is called rightly dividing the word of truth. Neither was chosen by Christ but Paul will be the twelfth apostle sitting on the throne in the regeneration for he was the last apostle of Christ.

This is borne out in Matt 19 verses 28-30. Before you say couldn't be, look at whom Christ was talking to and in what context he spoke those words.

hismessenger

 

[bbbbbbb]

I posted the links to 59 scriptures in post 49. The only mention of Barnabas as an apostle is the one scripture pointed out.

All the scripture in those links speak of the apostles in more than one verse. All that I have stated is that it is a reasonable deduction that there could have been a transcript error in that passages and that no where else in scripture is Barnabas called an apostle. Yet you have at least 60 scripture in which there is only one verse which seems to be the crux of the debate which is being defended because of tradition rather than truth. Matthias is also only mention in the scripture of his choosing by whom, man, not Christ. There is more mention of the other candidate Justus, than there is of Matthias in scripture.

It is called rightly dividing the word of truth. Neither was chosen by Christ but Paul will be the twelfth apostle sitting on the throne in the regeneration for he was the last apostle of Christ.

This is borne out in Matt 19 verses 28-30. Before you say couldn't be, look at whom Christ was talking to and in what context he spoke those words.

hismessenger

Please address my post. None of your 59 scriptural citations in Post #49 explicitly state that Barnabas was not an apostle.

 

[Hismessenger]

I did address your post. Only one scripture in the whole bile calls him an apostle.There is sufficient mention of all twelve of Christ's called apostles. There is only mention of him in one verse. There is more witness against him in the word than there is for him or Matthias. The mere fact that he is omitted in all the rest of the scripture as an apostle, using indirect reasoning which is all that we can do. He was a disciple and nothing else.
That is whole extent of 99 % of his mentioning in the word. Not as an apostle. Why defend the traditions of men so hardily. Does it make you any more in the eyes of God or does it make you less. He already condemned the traditions of men. So where does that place you.

A simple way to prove there are more than twelve people in the world is to count them. Thus is the basis of indirect reasoning. You can't deny what is apparent.

hismessenger

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Please address my post. None of your 59 scriptural citations in Post #49 explicitly state that Barnabas was not an apostle.

...And the one that does apparently does not count.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

I did address your post. Only one scripture in the whole bile calls him an apostle.There is sufficient mention of all twelve of Christ's called apostles. There is only mention of him in one verse. There is more witness against him in the word than there is for him or Matthias. The mere fact that he is omitted in all the rest of the scripture as an apostle, using indirect reasoning which is all that we can do. He was a disciple and nothing else.
That is whole extent of 99 % of his mentioning in the word. Not as an apostle. Why defend the traditions of men so hardily. Does it make you any more in the eyes of God or does it make you less. He already condemned the traditions of men. So where does that place you.

A simple way to prove there are more than twelve people in the world is to count them. Thus is the basis of indirect reasoning. You can't deny what is apparent.

hismessenger

Quick question; in your private revelation, Paul's in, Matthias is out, which makes 12; who are the 24 Elders at the right hand of our Lord in Heaven (Rev. 4 and Rev. 11)? Me thinks there are more than 12.

 

[Hismessenger]

Mar 10:35 And James and John, the sons of Zebedee, come unto him, saying, Master, we would that thou shouldest do for us whatsoever we shall desire.

Mar 10:36 And he said unto them, What would ye that I should do for you?

Mar 10:37 They said unto him, Grant unto us that we may sit, one on thy right hand, and the other on thy left hand, in thy glory.


Mar 10:41 And when the ten heard [it], they began to be much displeased with James and John.

Mar 10:42 But Jesus called them [to him], and saith unto them, Ye know that they which are accounted to rule over the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and their great ones exercise authority upon them.

Mar 10:43 But so shall it not be among you: but whosoever will be great among you, shall be your minister:

Mar 10:44 And whosoever of you will be the chiefest, shall be servant of all.

Mar 10:45 For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

Why is it so important that someone other than the Holy Spirit have rule over you. Christ condemned this chain of thought in the scriptures above but yet the church still falters in receiving this truth.

Is it that you think having someone over you will alleviate your conscience
when you stand before God and He asks why you did not receive his truth, you say the pastor told me? He has said that even if Abraham or Moses himself were to interceed for us, they could not save us after we have denied the truth.

All I am saying to you is to trust only the Holy Spirit and not put your faith in man. Seek his face in all things and he will lead you into the purpose which God has set for you. No man no's that. Only God. So why do you continue in the traditions of man when you have the comforter as your guide.Christ said Oh yea of little faith. You must believe in His word.

The passages above are explaining this very thing. Take heed to what Christ is saying and lean not to your own understanding because it is what everyone else believes to be true. So did the ones who followed Jim Jones and where are they now? Those things happen as a witness to God's truth to show us the error of our ways in following man.

hismessenger

 

[Hismessenger]

The twenty four elders are the prophets of the Old testament and your right, there are more than 12. But Christ only Chose 12 to plant the churches. Now that they have been planted, the Holy Spirit is their guide, not man. Beware the sheperds who feed themselves.

hismessenger

 

[ViaCrucis]

Why is it so important that someone other than the Holy Spirit have rule over you. Christ condemned this chain of thought in the scriptures above but yet the church still falters in receiving this truth.

Is it that you think having someone over you will alleviate your conscience
when you stand before God and He asks why you did not receive his truth, you say the pastor told me? He has said that even if Abraham or Moses himself were to interceed for us, they could not save us after we have denied the truth.

All I am saying to you is to trust only the Holy Spirit and not put your faith in man. Seek his face in all things and he will lead you into the purpose which God has set for you. No man no's that. Only God. So why do you continue in the traditions of man when you have the comforter as your guide.Christ said Oh yea of little faith. You must believe in His word.

The passages above are explaining this very thing. Take heed to what Christ is saying and lean not to your own understanding because it is what everyone else believes to be true. So did the ones who followed Jim Jones and where are they now? Those things happen as a witness to God's truth to show us the error of our ways in following man.

hismessenger

Why, exactly, did Paul spend effort telling Titus and Timothy about the qualities of being a pastor if pastors are against God's will?

You keep going on about following man and traditions of men, but those are just a smoke screen. Continuously ignoring Scripture and outright calling Scripture that doesn't agree with you false coupled with accusing others of "following man" instead of God is a fantastic dish of irony. It's not helping you make your argument, which you could do far better if you actually addressed points raised rather than continue to dodge them.

So, please, I ask, why does Scripture mention the existence of pastors, the existence of people called to shepherd and guide Christ's flock if, in fact, they are against God's will.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

The twenty four elders are the prophets of the Old testament and your right, there are more than 12. But Christ only Chose 12 to plant the churches. Now that they have been planted, the Holy Spirit is their guide, not man. Beware the sheperds who feed themselves.

hismessenger

Ah, then by your reckoning since we receive from the Holy Spirit, as written in Sacred Scripture, that there were more than twelve apostles and that God has established that there be pastors to teach, preach and shepherd Christ's flock then we would do well to listen to the Spirit as He speaks through Scripture rather than you, just a human being.

Excellent wisdom which I think we all will benefit from.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Why, exactly, did Paul spend effort telling Titus and Timothy about the qualities of being a pastor if pastors are against God's will?

You keep going on about following man and traditions of men, but those are just a smoke screen. Continuously ignoring Scripture and outright calling Scripture that doesn't agree with you false coupled with accusing others of "following man" instead of God is a fantastic dish of irony. It's not helping you make your argument, which you could do far better if you actually addressed points raised rather than continue to dodge them.

So, please, I ask, why does Scripture mention the existence of pastors, the existence of people called to shepherd and guide Christ's flock if, in fact, they are against God's will.

-CryptoLutheran

Ah, then by your reckoning since we receive from the Holy Spirit, as written in Sacred Scripture, that there were more than twelve apostles and that God has established that there be pastors to teach, preach and shepherd Christ's flock then we would do well to listen to the Spirit as He speaks through Scripture rather than you, just a human being.

Excellent wisdom which I think we all will benefit from.

-CryptoLutheran

What he said...

Thanks ViaCrucis!

 

[Hismessenger]

The twenty four elders were prophets, not apostles. It is amazing how one thing said can be construed to mean something else. I never called them apostles. I said clearly that there were only twelve apostles called by Christ.

One basic truth can be used as a foundation for a mountain of lies, and if we dig down deep enough in the mountain of lies, and bring out that truth, to set it on top of the mountain of lies; the entire mountain of lies will crumble under the weight of that one truth, and there is nothing more devastating to a structure of lies than the revelation of the truth upon which the structure of lies was built, because the shock waves of the revelation of the truth reverberate, and continue to reverberate throughout the Earth for generations to follow, awakening even those people who had no desire to be awakened to the truth.

That quote is by Dilamer Duverus and it goes to the heart of the church's apostasy'

Satan has piled so many lies upon the truth that until he is taken out of the way, man will be mired in his falsehoods unless we seek the Holy Spirit for guidance and God's truth. Don't believe this is so, look at the condemnation Christ heaped upon the religious leaders of that time and hear from God his decree. Cursed is the man who trust in man and makes flesh his strength............
The bible as written is the whole law of God for you will not find anything in it's covers that God has spoken that has not nor will not come to pass. Every story. every character, every detail, jot or tittle will not fail as he has worded it to be. Even Paul, the greatest Apostle of them all was headed down the wrong path until who? The Holy Spirit came upon Him. It isn't always what it seems.

I'll say this again, to every thing there is a season. The season for the apostles is past for their purpose was to plant the word/seed of God in mens hearts so that The Holy Spirit might come upon them and indwell them forming the church/body of Christ.

The scripture says He GAVE past tense, it doesn't say he gives. That's just like one of the favorite catechism floating around the apostate church is that God will supply all your NEEDS when it fact it doesn't say that at all. But many will speak it as if it is the truth when in fact, the scripture says he will supply all your NEED. By the Holy Spirit, even the elect won't be deceived, not by man.

hismessenger

 

[bbbbbbb]

I did address your post. Only one scripture in the whole bile calls him an apostle.There is sufficient mention of all twelve of Christ's called apostles. There is only mention of him in one verse. There is more witness against him in the word than there is for him or Matthias. The mere fact that he is omitted in all the rest of the scripture as an apostle, using indirect reasoning which is all that we can do. He was a disciple and nothing else.
That is whole extent of 99 % of his mentioning in the word. Not as an apostle. Why defend the traditions of men so hardily. Does it make you any more in the eyes of God or does it make you less. He already condemned the traditions of men. So where does that place you.

A simple way to prove there are more than twelve people in the world is to count them. Thus is the basis of indirect reasoning. You can't deny what is apparent.

hismessenger

If you wish, I would be interested if you would post on my thread in General Theology concerning the number of apostles.

Do you think Paul or Matthias became the twelfth apostle, replacing Judas?

Also, what do you make of the apostles, Andronicus and Junias, in Romans 16:7?

 

[pathfinder777]

The twenty four elders are the prophets of the Old testament and your right, there are more than 12. But Christ only Chose 12 to plant the churches. Now that they have been planted, the Holy Spirit is their guide, not man. Beware the sheperds who feed themselves.

hismessenger

Paul mentions overseers and it is quite possible that all the stuff that Paul had to deal with at the church of Corinth shows how necessary they might have been.

 

[earagun]

I believe the position of apostle still exist today, only we call them missionaries, they take the gospel to new lands and appoint pastors to run them, they are church planters and usually risk their lives doing what most people don't want to. They are the apostles of today, just as we see from scripture the position of prophet is still in existance, they're the ones most people don't want to listen to, and still today would be killed if at all possible. these are the ones who boldly speak the plain truth, and hold no punches. much like John the baptist, they somtimes call people names, truthful yet most find this behavior unChrist like, yet even Christ addressed the Pharisees as the prophet John......then again Jesus was a prophet also