Church authority structure

[Hismessenger]

Clergy; Pastors, Priests, Bishops, Elders, Deacons, Ministers, Teachers etc. do not save us; only Christ through faith given by the Holy Spirit.

My view of things doesn't defy scripture but lines up with the ministry of the Holy Spirit which many can't seem to grasp for looking to another man for guidance which is totally against the mission of the Spirit. Men are falliable, the Holy Spirit is not. Only He is given to lead and guide us into all truth. As ministers of Christ we all can be pastors and teachers but it is only in the spirit.

This is the truth I am trying to present. It is not the man but the spirit but it is for your own soul salvation. The spirit speaks from within. Once again, this is why the elect won't be deceived because they will only follow the Spirit.

How do you know that that man standing in the pulpit is not one of Satan's angels of light especially when he is preaching the law without understanding. When the law was placed in the side of the ark, it represented the law being fulfilled in Christ, the true ark. To preach law keeping is to desecrate the death and resurrection of Christ. It is only by grace through faith that we are imputed righteousness. Not of ourselves but by him who gave his life that we might believe in his finished work on the cross. Trust no man. Cursed is the man who puts his trust in man.

hismessenger

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

My view of things doesn't defy scripture but lines up with the ministry of the Holy Spirit which many can't seem to grasp for looking to another man for guidance which is totally against the mission of the Spirit. Men are falliable, the Holy Spirit is not. Only He is given to lead and guide us into all truth. As ministers of Christ we all can be pastors and teachers but it is only in the spirit.

This is the truth I am trying to present. It is not the man but the spirit but it is for your own soul salvation. The spirit speaks from within. Once again, this is why the elect won't be deceived because they will only follow the Spirit.

How do you know that that man standing in the pulpit is not one of Satan's angels of light especially when he is preaching the law without understanding. When the law was placed in the side of the ark, it represented the law being fulfilled in Christ, the true ark. To preach law keeping is to desecrate the death and resurrection of Christ. It is only by grace through faith that we are imputed righteousness. Not of ourselves but by him who gave his life that we might believe in his finished work on the cross. Trust no man. Cursed is the man who puts his trust in man.

hismessenger

I get what you are saying here.

If a Church Leader fits the standard for Pastors regarding their office (remember, they are human sinners like you and I, and what they teach passes the test of the whole of Scripture, not just a verse here or there; we are quite safe to accept them as leaders

 

[Incariol]

Trust no man. Cursed is the man who puts his trust in man.

hismessenger

Jesus is a man. Remember that slight, inconsequential and minor event that happened in Bethlehem?

 

[Hismessenger]

Jesus was God come in the flesh to redeem us from ourselves. That's not the man that scripture was taking about but rather we ourselves.

Jer 17:5 Thus says the LORD: "Cursed [is] the man who trusts in man And makes flesh his strength, Whose heart departs from the LORD.

When you go outside the will of God trusting in man, flesh, you open yourself up to be deceived.Once again, this is why the elect won't be deceived. The antichrist is going to come in the form of a man. Performing lying signs and wonders. Need I say more.

hismessenger

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Jesus is a man. Remember that slight, inconsequential and minor event that happened in Bethlehem?

True God and true man at the same time; as per CF's Statement of Faith.

 

[ViaCrucis]

But Christ chose Paul to be the twelth apostle.

No. Christ called Paul to be apostle to the Gentiles. The vacancy in the Twelve left by Judas Iscariot was filled by Matthias. Paul was never part of the Twelve.

Apostles were chosen by Christ, not man as they tried to do. What mention of Matthias is made other than him being chosen by lot. I think you should take a look at the scriptures I posted before you reply with the standard religious jargon being taught in the buildings. Praise teams and name it and claim it and dance ministries are all looking to bring the world into the church rather than taking the church into the world as we are given to do. No FEAR for the truth has already overcome the lies of Satan.

Peter did what most practicing christians do today. They ask God to sanction their actions rather than asking God what they should do. Did they consult the Holy Spirit for guidance before they decided to cast lots? Answer NO. They decided to cast lots and then asked God for his blessings instead of his direction.

hismessenger

Paul is never mentioned as being part of the Twelve. The remaining eleven chose Matthias to fill in for Judas.

Other than the Twelve + Paul, Scripture mentions more apostles:

Apollos, Silas, Junia (a female apostle) and Andronicus.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Hismessenger]

Rev 21:14 Now the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

If what you say ViaCruis is true, how come Revelation only speaks of twelve apostles which were of the lamb. We know that Judas isn't one of them and he was also chosen by Christ so who else fits the bill. The ones you name are not shown anywhere in the scripture as being chosen by Christ. That leads me to believe that they were also ordained of men. It matters not whom Paul was sent too but rather the fact that Christ chose him and he operated in the same if not greater understanding than the original eleven.

Show where those that you named were called by Christ and not man for all the scripture which I looked at only named Barnabas and even at that, he was chosen by the apostles. None of the others are called apostles in the scripture.

hismessenger

 

[ViaCrucis]

If what you say ViaCruis is true, how come Revelation only speaks of twelve apostles which were of the lamb. We know that Judas isn't one of them and he was also chosen by Christ so who else fits the bill. The ones you name are not shown anywhere in the scripture as being chosen by Christ. That leads me to believe that they were also ordained of men. It matters not whom Paul was sent too but rather the fact that Christ chose him and he operated in the same if not greater understanding than the original eleven.

Show where those that you named were called by Christ and not man for all the scripture which I looked at only named Barnabas and even at that, he was chosen by the apostles. None of the others are called apostles in the scripture.

hismessenger

Apollos and Silas are specifically named as Apostles in Scripture.

"For it seems to me that God has put us apostles on display at the end of the procession, like those condemned to die in the arena. We have been made a spectacle to the whole universe, to angels as well as to human beings." - 1 Corinthians 4:9, St. Paul writes this just after mentioning Apollos and later after his discussion concerning divisions among those saying "we are of Apollos" or "we are of Cephas" or "we are of Paul".

"Nor did we seek glory from people, whether from you or from others, though we could have made demands as apostles of Christ." 1 Thessalonians 2:6, c.f. 1 Thessalonians 1:1 -- "Paul, Silas, and Timothy, to the church of the Thessalonians in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace and peace to you"

Junia and Andronicus are both mentioned as apostles in Romans 16,

"Greet Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen and fellow prisoners. They are held in esteem among the apostles, and they were in Christ before me." - Romans 16:7

It was understood among many of the Fathers that Junia was an apostle, as St. John Chrysostom says in one of his homilies:

"Greet Andronicus and Junia...who are outstanding among the apostles: To be an apostle is something great! But to be outstanding among the apostles - just think what a wonderful song of praise that is! They were outstanding on the basis of their works and virtuous actions. Indeed, how great the wisdom of this woman must have been that she was even deemed worthy of the title of apostle."

St. Barnabas is also called "apostle",

"But when the apostles Barnabas and Paul heard of it, they tore their garments and rushed out into the crowd, crying out," - Acts 14:14

The Twelve held an important place, and it was important enough for the remaining eleven to replace Judas with Matthias.

Paul was never part of that circle, he was nevertheless an apostle. Just as Barnabas was an apostle, as were Junia, Andronicus, Silas, Apollos and Timothy. All referred to as apostles in Scripture.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Hismessenger]

Here is a list of all the scriptures about apostles from the blue letter bible. There is one in particular which I will post because it shows that Barnabas was not a apostle and nowhere is it recorded where he did any of the miracles which are attributed to the rest of the twelve.

1. (Mat 10:2 — Act 8:1)
2. (Act 8:14 — Gal 1:19)
3. (Eph 2:20 — Rev 21:14)

Follow these links and see who they show to be apostles.

Here is the scripture about Barnabas.

Act 4:36 And Joses, who was also named Barnabas by the apostles (which is translated Son of Encouragement), a Levite of the country of Cyprus,

So if it doesn't call any of the others that you name, where do you get your information from. Traditions of men?

Rom 16:7 Greet Andronicus and Junia, my countrymen and my fellow prisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.

This statement doesn't make them apostles.

I will post the others if that's what it takes for you to look further at the apostles. Twelve tribes, twelve thrones, twelve apostles. Careful what you allow to be added or
taken away.

hismessenger

 

[ViaCrucis]

Here is a list of all the scriptures about apostles from the blue letter bible. There is one in particular which I will post because it shows that Barnabas was not a apostle and nowhere is it recorded where he did any of the miracles which are attributed to the rest of the twelve.

No where does Scripture say that a miracle is required to be an apostle.

You're also clearly ignoring what Acts 14:14 says,

ἀκούσαντες δὲ οἱ ἀπόστολοι Βαρναβᾶς καὶ Παῦλος [...]

They heard but the apostles Barnabas and Paulos [...]

The hearing is plural ("they heard") and the apostles is plural, apostoloi; and the apostoloi are specifically mentioned: Barnabas and Paul.

Follow these links and see who they show to be apostles.

Here is the scripture about Barnabas.

So if it doesn't call any of the others that you name, where do you get your information from. Traditions of men?

I'm getting my information from the explicit words of Scripture actually. That Christian tradition agrees with Scripture on this is really just icing on the cake.

This statement doesn't make them apostles.

I will post the others if that's what it takes for you to look further at the apostles. Twelve tribes, twelve thrones, twelve apostles. Careful what you allow to be added or
taken away.

hismessenger

If Barnabas isn't an apostle, then who is the other apostle mentioned in Acts 14:14?

When you can answer that, then you can talk about "adding or taking away" things.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Hismessenger]

Act 14:8 And in Lystra a certain man without strength in his feet was sitting, a cripple from his mother's womb, who had never walked.

Act 14:9 [This] man heard Paul speaking. Paul, observing him intently and seeing that he had faith to be healed,

Act 14:10 said with a loud voice, "Stand up straight on your feet!" And he leaped and walked.

Act 14:11 Now when the people saw what Paul had done, they raised their voices, saying in the Lycaonian [language], "The gods have come down to us in the likeness of men!"

Act 14:12 And Barnabas they called Zeus, and Paul, Hermes, because he was the chief speaker.

Act 14:13 Then the priest of Zeus, whose temple was in front of their city, brought oxen and garlands to the gates, intending to sacrifice with the multitudes.

Act 14:14 But when the apostles Barnabas and Paul heard this, they tore their clothes and ran in among the multitude, crying out

On the contrary acts 14:14 confirms what I have already said. It was Paul who performed the miracle and Barnabas was only a disciple who went with Paul on His mission.

We have supposed apostles today but they were not chosen by Christ nor do they operate in the power that was available to the Apostles chosen by Christ nor do the understand the true concept of healing as demonstrated by Christ himself and attested to in Acts 10:38;

Act 10:38 "how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power, who went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him.

Most of the focus today is on the physical healing when in fact the true healing is the exposure of Satan's lies and the understanding that you can overcome him through Christ. Why heal the body and leave the evil influence in tact. Can you see the truth of that in Christ?

hismessenger

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

I think we are becoming mired in details.

Scripture clearly shows us that the Church is made up of all who have faith in Christ.

Scripture also clearly shows that the Holy Spirit is not only established the Church at Pentecost, but remains in full control of the Church; again Luther explained it so well and so simply:

The Third Article.
​

Of Sanctification.

​

I believe in the Holy Ghost (Spirit); one holy Christian (catholic) Church, the communion of saints; the forgiveness of sins; the resurrection of the body; and the life everlasting. Amen.

​

What does this mean?--Answer.


I believe that I cannot by my own reason or strength believe in Jesus Christ, my Lord, or come to Him; but the Holy Ghost has called me by the Gospel, enlightened me with His gifts, sanctified and kept me in the true faith; even as He calls, gathers, enlightens, and sanctifies the whole Christian Church on earth, and keeps it with Jesus Christ in the one true faith; in which Christian Church He forgives daily and richly all sins to me and all believers, and at the last day will raise up me and all the dead, and will give to me and to all believers in Christ everlasting life. This is most certainly true.

The part in blue sums it up; not by our reason or any ability, but only the power of the Holy Spirit. Faith and the Holy Spirit are inseparable.

Now, what does this have to do with Church authority structure in the OP?

First, in the Gospel of St. Matthew 16:15-19 our Lord Jesus Christ and St. Peter are having a chat, Peter confesses his faith in Christ "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God"; Christ replies that Peter hit the nail on the head "Blessed are you" He says. Christ goes on to tell Peter, and us too, that this faith is what the Church is built upon.

So we have this faith which is given by God through the Holy Spirit, and therefore are part of the catholic, universal, collective Church.

In verse 19 Christ goes on to give to not only Peter but to the Church "The Keys". These "Keys" are the "authority" not only to forgive and retain sin, but also the authority of the Church to govern itself based on faith in Christ, through the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

Through guidance of the Spirit and the authority to bind and loose the Church governs itself as it is an extension of the Holy Spirit. The Church has historically done this by following the Biblical model of appointing leaders.

I do believe that this authority also allows the Church to establish standards for ordination both in following the Biblical model, and as moved by the Spirit to establish other offices as needs or special circumstances require (providing such do not defy or conflict with Scripture) such as trustees, stewards, teachers, musicians, social workers etc.

I also believe that through faith given by, and guidance of the Holy Spirit we are bound to accept this authority, and those whom the Church appoints.

Likewise, being called by the Spirit to faith, we must strive to live our whole life to serve the Lord in everything that we do.

Defying God given authority moves us outside the Church.

 

[ViaCrucis]

On the contrary acts 14:14 confirms what I have already said. It was Paul who performed the miracle and Barnabas was only a disciple who went with Paul on His mission.

What do miracles have to do with anything?

You're dodging my question. If Barnabas isn't an apostle, who is the other apostle mentioned in Acts 14:14?

We have supposed apostles today but they were not chosen by Christ nor do they operate in the power that was available to the Apostles chosen by Christ nor do the understand the true concept of healing as demonstrated by Christ himself and attested to in Acts 10:38;

I'm not talking about modern day self-professed apostles. I don't believe in modern day apostles, so this point is rather moot.

Most of the focus today is on the physical healing when in fact the true healing is the exposure of Satan's lies and the understanding that you can overcome him through Christ. Why heal the body and leave the evil influence in tact. Can you see the truth of that in Christ?

hismessenger

Now please answer my question. Who is the other apostle mentioned in Acts 14:14 along with Paul?

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Hismessenger]

32 Now the multitude of those who believed were of one heart and one soul; neither did anyone say that any of the things he possessed was his own, but they had all things in common.

33 And with great power the apostles gave witness to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus. And great grace was upon them all.

34 Nor was there anyone among them who lacked; for all who were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the proceeds of the things that were sold,

35 and laid them at the apostles’ feet; and they distributed to each as anyone had need.

36 And Joses,[d] who was also named Barnabas by the apostles (which is translated Son of Encouragement), a Levite of the country of Cyprus,

37 having land, sold it, and brought the money and laid it at the apostles’ feet.

Barnabas was not an apostle but a disciple and devout christian man who spoke well and had a heart for God.
This passage from above shows that he was not numbered among the apostles. I would surmise that Acts 14:14 is a copy error by one of the scribes in translation. Can you show me another scripture which calls Barnabas a apostle. I don't think so.

hismessenger

 

[Johnny Todd]

Its very apparent from all the post not many followers of Jesus really care what the bible teaches according to the God given appointments to the church, many have been in error so long they just can't fathem the church could be so far from the mark, and will continue to support and defend traditional error forever.......or until some of them reconize that out of seven churches only one was faithful.........and it wasn't the one that was wealthy, thats the one He called lukewarm........might want to steer clear of the big rich looking churches

 

[Hismessenger]

Johnny Todd,

good to see someone else who recognizes the church error and as you say, they long for the traditions of men before the will of God.

Here is some more scripture to peruse in regard to church authority, which can only be given by the Holy Spirit through God.

Act 10:39 "And we are witnesses of all things which He did both in the land of the Jews and in Jerusalem, whom they [fn] killed by hanging on a tree.

Act 10:40 "Him God raised up on the third day, and showed Him openly,

Act 10:41"not to all the people, but to witnesses chosen before by God, [even] to us who ate and drank with Him after He arose from the dead.

There are some key points in these verses that dispel the error of traditions. I have highlighted those points.

God the same, yesterday, today and forevermore. It is Christ in God who chooses.

hismessenger

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

I think we are becoming mired in details.

Scripture clearly shows us that the Church is made up of all who have faith in Christ.

Scripture also clearly shows that the Holy Spirit is not only established the Church at Pentecost, but remains in full control of the Church; again Luther explained it so well and so simply:



The part in blue sums it up; not by our reason or any ability, but only the power of the Holy Spirit. Faith and the Holy Spirit are inseparable.

Now, what does this have to do with Church authority structure in the OP?

First, in the Gospel of St. Matthew 16:15-19 our Lord Jesus Christ and St. Peter are having a chat, Peter confesses his faith in Christ "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God"; Christ replies that Peter hit the nail on the head "Blessed are you" He says. Christ goes on to tell Peter, and us too, that this faith is what the Church is built upon.

So we have this faith which is given by God through the Holy Spirit, and therefore are part of the catholic, universal, collective Church.

In verse 19 Christ goes on to give to not only Peter but to the Church "The Keys". These "Keys" are the "authority" not only to forgive and retain sin, but also the authority of the Church to govern itself based on faith in Christ, through the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

Through guidance of the Spirit and the authority to bind and loose the Church governs itself as it is an extension of the Holy Spirit. The Church has historically done this by following the Biblical model of appointing leaders.

I do believe that this authority also allows the Church to establish standards for ordination both in following the Biblical model, and as moved by the Spirit to establish other offices as needs or special circumstances require (providing such do not defy or conflict with Scripture) such as trustees, stewards, teachers, musicians, social workers etc.

I also believe that through faith given by, and guidance of the Holy Spirit we are bound to accept this authority, and those whom the Church appoints.

Likewise, being called by the Spirit to faith, we must strive to live our whole life to serve the Lord in everything that we do.

Defying God given authority moves us outside the Church.

Barnabas was not an apostle but a disciple and devout christian man who spoke well and had a heart for God.
This passage from above shows that he was not numbered among the apostles. I would surmise that Acts 14:14 is a copy error by one of the scribes in translation. Can you show me another scripture which calls Barnabas a apostle. I don't think so.

hismessenger

You have to do better than that, we are not naive rubes that can be swayed by emotion and contrived ideas.

You can not pick and choose which Scripture is correct and which is not; by doing so you call all of Scripture into question. The only thing that your argument proves is that you can change Scripture to say what you want it to; I hope you do not claim to hold Sola Scriptura.

Barnabas is an Apostle, so is my Pastor who leads us and teaches us the "one Holy catholic and Apostolic" faith. How do I know this? Scripture, not just bits and pieces of it, tells me so.

Pax Domini

 

[ViaCrucis]

Its very apparent from all the post not many followers of Jesus really care what the bible teaches according to the God given appointments to the church, many have been in error so long they just can't fathem the church could be so far from the mark, and will continue to support and defend traditional error forever.......or until some of them reconize that out of seven churches only one was faithful.........and it wasn't the one that was wealthy, thats the one He called lukewarm........might want to steer clear of the big rich looking churches

And no doubt you have all the answers to all the problems.

Correction, the Bible as interpreted and understood by Johnny Todd has all the answers to the problems.

Everyone else is in serious error because we lack the vital wisdom you have to be able to just know and understand what the Bible says because it is just so simple. We're just making it complicated with all our "traditions of men" and harlot doctrines of demons which tickle our ears.

Am I close?

-CryptoLutheran

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

And no doubt you have all the answers to all the problems.

Correction, the Bible as interpreted and understood by Johnny Todd has all the answers to the problems.

Everyone else is in serious error because we lack the vital wisdom you have to be able to just know and understand what the Bible says because it is just so simple. We're just making it complicated with all our "traditions of men" and harlot doctrines of demons which tickle our ears.

Am I close?

-CryptoLutheran

If it walks like a duck...

 

[Hismessenger]

Rev 2:4"Nevertheless I have [this] against you, that you have left your first love.

Rev 2:10 "Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw [some] of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.

Rev 2:14
"But I have a few things against you, because you have there those who hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balak to put a stumbling block before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed to idols, and to commit sexual immorality.

Rev 2:15 "Thus you also have those who hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate. [fn]

Rev 2:16 "Repent, or else I will come to you quickly and will fight against them with the sword of My mouth.

Rev 2:20 "Nevertheless I have a few things against you, because you allow [fn] that woman [fn] Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, to teach and seduce [fn] My servants to commit sexual immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols.

Rev 3:1 "And to the angel of the church in Sardis write, 'These things says He who has the seven Spirits of God and the seven stars: "I know your works, that you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead.

Rev 3:4 "You [fn] have a few names even in Sardis who have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with Me in white, for they are worthy.

Rev 3:8"I know your works. See, I have set before you an open door, and no one can shut it; [fn] for you have a little strength, have kept My word, and have not denied My name.

Rev 3:11 "Behold, [fn] I am coming quickly! Hold fast what you have, that no one may take your crown.

Rev 3:15 "I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot. I could wish you were cold or hot.

Rev 3:16 "So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, [fn] I will vomit you out of My mouth.

Rev 3:17 "Because you say, 'I am rich, have become wealthy, and have need of nothing'--and do not know that you are wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked--

I have just posted the masters rulings on the churches. As Todd said, there is only one which made the grade. If the master is making these statements about the churches and you deny his truth, Where does that put you with your traditions of men.
The only true pastor is the Holy spirit. He is the only one who can guide you into all truth. Church authority is God, Christ, The Holy Spirit and the body of believers.

I only post short clippings of the scripture because to post them all would take more room than you have available and if you don't receive it from what is posted what would it matter if I posted the whole bible. It's all his word and EVERY WORD IS GOSPEL TRUTH. But as I posted from scripture before, he doesn't show himself to everyone. Only those who walk by faith. Trusting in God and not man.

hismessenger