Should the church and state be separated?
Is there a definite Christian view on this?
How would you justify your view theologically?
Is there a definite Christian view on this?
How would you justify your view theologically?
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Church and State
- Thread starter HammerRock
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Albion
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There really isn't any case to be made for separating Church from State, not theologically, historically, or legally. Even the most ardent advocates of separation in our own country are not actually interested in separating the two, for they are fine with keeping some church and religion "unseparated." They just want to be the ones to decide which religions to favor and which to suppress.
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Harry3142
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HammerRock-
Christianity is a society within a society. We have our own code of morality which we are to conduct our lives in accordance with. And this code of morality is based on religious tenets, which we accept as being factual events. We also expect others who wish for us to see them as Christians to likewise abide by this same code of morality. If a person identifies himself as a Christian, there are some acts which he is to practice, and other acts which he is to shun.
However, the State is made up of many disparate people, with some being of other religions, and still others being against organized religion in any form. Those of other religions have basically the same code of morality as we Christians have. But those who are against any organized religion have among them those who are against any code of morality whatsoever. They have even gone to the extreme of demanding that Christianity abandon its code of morality in order to accept their code of amorality.
Scripture is clear in its teaching that we are to maintain our stance concerning morality. It is also clear that we are to maintain a hands-off policy concerning those who commit acts which we see as immoral, but who also identify themselves as being 'outside the church'. IOW's, they're nonbelievers:
I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people - not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. But now I am writing you that you are not to associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.
What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside. (I Corinthians 5:9-13a,NIV)
The State has its own laws, and as long as its citizenry abides by those laws, the State is to grant them the freedom to conduct their lives as they see fit. But those laws do not necessarily place on its citizenry the same requirement of moral behavior that Christianity does. So if the church would unite with the State, there would be a definite conflict. Either the church would have to abandon its own code of morality in order to appease those who are nonbelievers, or the nonbelievers would have to abide by the same code of morality that we Christians have accepted. In either case there would be friction.
Christianity is a society within a society. We have our own code of morality which we are to conduct our lives in accordance with. And this code of morality is based on religious tenets, which we accept as being factual events. We also expect others who wish for us to see them as Christians to likewise abide by this same code of morality. If a person identifies himself as a Christian, there are some acts which he is to practice, and other acts which he is to shun.
However, the State is made up of many disparate people, with some being of other religions, and still others being against organized religion in any form. Those of other religions have basically the same code of morality as we Christians have. But those who are against any organized religion have among them those who are against any code of morality whatsoever. They have even gone to the extreme of demanding that Christianity abandon its code of morality in order to accept their code of amorality.
Scripture is clear in its teaching that we are to maintain our stance concerning morality. It is also clear that we are to maintain a hands-off policy concerning those who commit acts which we see as immoral, but who also identify themselves as being 'outside the church'. IOW's, they're nonbelievers:
I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people - not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. But now I am writing you that you are not to associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.
What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside. (I Corinthians 5:9-13a,NIV)
The State has its own laws, and as long as its citizenry abides by those laws, the State is to grant them the freedom to conduct their lives as they see fit. But those laws do not necessarily place on its citizenry the same requirement of moral behavior that Christianity does. So if the church would unite with the State, there would be a definite conflict. Either the church would have to abandon its own code of morality in order to appease those who are nonbelievers, or the nonbelievers would have to abide by the same code of morality that we Christians have accepted. In either case there would be friction.
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saffron park
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Besides God, there are no greater beings than Mankind. Any person who claims authority over other men has attempted to take the place of God, and they are an anti-christ.
The Church is an organization that is set up for the edification of Christ. Therefore the State, which is an organization set up for the edification of anti-christs, is the anti-church.
You can't be an effective part of the Church while involving yourself with the anti-christ. That is serving two masters.
The Church is an organization that is set up for the edification of Christ. Therefore the State, which is an organization set up for the edification of anti-christs, is the anti-church.
You can't be an effective part of the Church while involving yourself with the anti-christ. That is serving two masters.
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I agree Firecycle!
One more thing that needs to be pointed out is if you involve "church" within the state, you then need to involve all religions into the state, so which one would prevail? We can't have all major religions trying to run the show. You can't let one in and refuse entrance to the others.
One more thing that needs to be pointed out is if you involve "church" within the state, you then need to involve all religions into the state, so which one would prevail? We can't have all major religions trying to run the show. You can't let one in and refuse entrance to the others.
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Setyoufree
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"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"
Congress cannot legally force any particular brand of religion on its citizens. At the same time its citizens cannot be prohibited to practice their faith.
So "yes", congress should not make any law respecting a religion. We should have no state religion.
Why?
As John Dalberg-Action stated, "Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always bad men."
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When you mix Church with politics horrendous things happen. Power corrupts. We have seen this happen with church leaders who became more interested in gaining political influence than following God. Separation of church and state is good because it allows a free marketplace of ideas. If there is no separation then which church shall dominate? Whose doctrines shall be enforced by law? That being said it is fine for one to bring their religious ideas into political discussions but politics corrupts religion utterly. There is a reason why God discouraged Israel from having a King.
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Albion
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It sounds like people aren't actually talking about SEPARATION of Church and State. They are talking about keeping a balance or being fair to all parties or something other than an actual separation, which would necessarily mean no religion or religious input or religious values in any aspect of government--an idea that's incompatible with a free and representative government.
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Setyoufree
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The church with the biggest influence. That means the church with the most lobbyist and wealth. That's how Washington works.
Don't kid yourself, corruption exists even in the church. Both Protestant and Catholic. At the same time God's people are in all the denominations that constitute Christianity.
That being said there are leaders within these denominations that want to "lord over" their people. Here's one:
"The absurd and erroneous doctrines or ravings in defense of liberty of conscience, are a most pestilential error a pest, of all others, most to be dreaded in a State. Pope Pius IX (1792-1878; pope: 1846-1878;Encyclical Letter; August 15, 1854)
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sonshine234
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I believe that there should be no separation, but as one poster pointed out what Church. Of course for me I would like to see my Church (TheCEC) in that position
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Setyoufree
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Then your church, backed by the power of the USA, could run over the liberty of men freely. Is that of Christ?
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saffron park
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The desire to institute a state religion is only the desire to have your philosophy forced upon others with violence rather than expending the intellectual energy to convert them.
It is sloth and it does not work.
It is sloth and it does not work.
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ViaCrucis
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Personally, I'd like the State to stay as far away from my religion as possible. So yes, I believe in the importance of the separation of Church and State. It's not the State's job or business in matters pertaining to religion.
Luther's Doctrine of the Two Kingdoms is, at the very least, a very good starting place in this regard.
-CryptoLutheran
Luther's Doctrine of the Two Kingdoms is, at the very least, a very good starting place in this regard.
-CryptoLutheran
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Setyoufree
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Not to change the subject, but will you give me a website so I can see what constitutes a "Wittenberg Catholic"?
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N
Nanopants
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I'm of the position that Christianity was born to rule over secular government, even if not in an officially recognized sense.
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saffron park
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Secular government is built upon and maintained by violence. Why should we have any part of that?
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saffron park
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Because Jesus totally wanted us to control and dominate other groups. He clearly wanted his followers to rule the Roman Empire.
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