Church and State

[HammerRock]

You cannot have a Christian State. The two institutions are mutually incompatible.

Jesus will introduce a Christian state. Also the rule of David as king (a man after Gods own heart) seems to have been in a position in which the king himself was able to grow as a Christian, in which he was able to carry out Gods commands and to be a blessing to the peoples whom he ruled. Even non Hebrews it seems came to accept his God as they joined his service. Idols every where were smashed and burnt. Indeed the reign of David is referred to by Christ himself in the New Testament and being a son of David (i.e. a King) is part of the Messianic claim. He also did a lot of rubbish things but these did not cancel Gods call on his life to rule.

 

[HammerRock]

Christian states or nations are non-existence nor is it even possible. A Christian is someone who follows Christ, a state or nation is someone who follows man.

God did not intend for man to rule over man, but the Hebrews begged for this so he gave it to them, but not without warning. Now we have a corrupt system and a bunch of goodwill Christians trying to get the world to see it our way and then are in an uproar when they continue to follow the world and not Christ.

There are two bodies, the Body of Christ and the body of the anti-christ. The anti-christ's spirit has permeated the world gov'ts, organizations and schools, they are in stark contrast to the Body of Christ and exist at opposite ends of the spectrum.

The word state is quite abstract I suppose. Maybe the real meaning of a Christian state is best expressed in terms of Christians holding the executive positions and seeking to use them for Christs glory. Cromwell sought to do this and was one of the most unpopular rulers in British history but what he did achieved a lasting Christian impression.

I think we underestimate the grace of God when we suggest that God cannot work in imperfect situations , through imperfect people with imperfect methods. Fact is He always does it this way and it strikes me as rather artificial to separate imperfect Christians in gated communities, who only have Christian friends from those Christians who seek to find a way to achieve Gods purposes in the midst of the darkness of an equally imperfect world. I guess a great many who argue for a separation do not hold positions in government but it seems a little dishonest to me for them to suggest that they are any better as Christians than those that do.

But at the end of the day Christians should have their eyes on that greater Kingdom. Too many Christians in positions of worldly power and wealth are corrupted by these and lose sight of what matters.

 

[HammerRock]

1 Peter does a fine and detailed job of identifying how Christians are to relate as aliens, pilgrims, and sojourners in this world.

For instance, in the 2nd chapter it has a "litany" of person-to-person relationships similar to those found in Ephesians 6 and Colossians 3.

However, it is different from both of them in a significant way: It is one-sided, from subordinate to superior. That's because when the discussion is about relating as aliens, pilgrims, and sojourners--temporary residents rather than natives--it's much more often that we will be subordinate to the natives.

The real problem for the Church is that most Christians, especially those of us currently deployed to America, don't know where our home is. Too many of us think our home is America: We treasure being American and therefore America is where our hearts are.

Yes we are strangers in strange lands who long for that better place we have only glimpsed as yet. But God may well deploy Christians to positions of worldly influence. If God has called a person to be a King then there is no separation between the greater and lesser Kingdom in this persons experience except to the extent that he fails to live up to the demands of the greater or the grace to make that journey is not supplied. God is concerned with the rise and fall of nations and kings as with the people of those nations.

 

[HammerRock]

Romans 13 is not a mystical thing or a confusing thing. American troops stationed in foreign countries operate under the exact same rules as Romans 13 all the time.

When I was in the military stationed overseas, we had to do three things in relation to our host nation:

1. Obey their laws whenever we were off the base.
2. Pay their taxes if we lived off the base.
3. Honor their officials. If we passed one of their officers, we were to salute. If we were off base (in uniform) and saw them raising their flag, we were to come to attention and salute.

Romans 13 is what soldiers overseas do every day, and we never got confused that it made us citizens of those nations. The only reason we meet those three requirements is because our commander requires it of us. We don't obey their laws, pay their taxes, and honor their officials because we're citizens of those countries, but because our commander told us to.

It also never confused us about where our loyalties lay. If you go on in Romans 13 to verse 8, you see: "Owe no one anything except to love one another...."


That actually refers back to the previous verses. Paying their taxes, obeying their laws, and honoring their officials does not mean we owe them our loyalty and allegiance. After all that, we still owe them nothing but love.

Yes the military analogy is a good one. We are in the world but not of it. We show due respect for its rules and regulations because Christ Himself commands it, not because of any devotion to worldly leaders or institutions.

 

[Jake255]

The word state is quite abstract I suppose. Maybe the real meaning of a Christian state is best expressed in terms of Christians holding the executive positions and seeking to use them for Christs glory. Cromwell sought to do this and was one of the most unpopular rulers in British history but what he did achieved a lasting Christian impression.

I think we underestimate the grace of God when we suggest that God cannot work in imperfect situations , through imperfect people with imperfect methods. Fact is He always does it this way and it strikes me as rather artificial to separate imperfect Christians in gated communities, who only have Christian friends from those Christians who seek to find a way to achieve Gods purposes in the midst of the darkness of an equally imperfect world. I guess a great many who argue for a separation do not hold positions in government but it seems a little dishonest to me for them to suggest that they are any better as Christians than those that do.

But at the end of the day Christians should have their eyes on that greater Kingdom. Too many Christians in positions of worldly power and wealth are corrupted by these and lose sight of what matters.

I believe what is happening in the world today is exactly how God has planned it, it's not like any of this is taking Him by surprise. He has put all the world governments into place. He will glorify Himself through it all.

For whatever good Cromwell did for Britian, it has since all gone out the window. It is a post Christian era, there are more WICCA's and muslims residing there than Christians.

I have heard it stated though that we as Christians should be taking back areas in which satan has trodded all over. It's a battle we fight, but when I look at prophesy I don't see this getting any better until the return of Christ.

 

[RDKirk]

Jesus will introduce a Christian state. Also the rule of David as king (a man after Gods own heart) seems to have been in a position in which the king himself was able to grow as a Christian, in which he was able to carry out Gods commands and to be a blessing to the peoples whom he ruled. Even non Hebrews it seems came to accept his God as they joined his service. Idols every where were smashed and burnt. Indeed the reign of David is referred to by Christ himself in the New Testament and being a son of David (i.e. a King) is part of the Messianic claim. He also did a lot of rubbish things but these did not cancel Gods call on his life to rule.

David was a pretty lousy king, start to finish. For instance, his decision to count the troops--overruling the counsel of all his military officers--caused the greatest disaster to strike Israel until the Babylonian captivity. They lost 70,000 men--more lost than all their wars put together.

He was the cause of two rebellions against the throne--more faithful lives lost--simply from poor management of his own family.

After all, there were no kings of Israel that did not make critical errors. Solomon loved foreign wives and burdened the people mercilessly with taxes (which is why Solomon was so wealthy--it was not because he struck oil on the palace grounds).

Hezekiah showed Nebuchadnezzar's father that Judah had wealth worth taking, then Josiah disobeyed God and prevented Pharaoh Necco from destroying Nebuchanezzar.

In the end, God's warning against having kings always proved true and still does. The fact that God has permitted kings does not mean having kings is righteous or that what kings do is righteous.

 

[Rhamiel]

The word state is quite abstract I suppose. Maybe the real meaning of a Christian state is best expressed in terms of Christians holding the executive positions and seeking to use them for Christs glory. Cromwell sought to do this and was one of the most unpopular rulers in British history but what he did achieved a lasting Christian impression.

I think we underestimate the grace of God when we suggest that God cannot work in imperfect situations , through imperfect people with imperfect methods. Fact is He always does it this way and it strikes me as rather artificial to separate imperfect Christians in gated communities, who only have Christian friends from those Christians who seek to find a way to achieve Gods purposes in the midst of the darkness of an equally imperfect world. I guess a great many who argue for a separation do not hold positions in government but it seems a little dishonest to me for them to suggest that they are any better as Christians than those that do.

But at the end of the day Christians should have their eyes on that greater Kingdom. Too many Christians in positions of worldly power and wealth are corrupted by these and lose sight of what matters.

of all the Christian kings and leaders, both Catholic and Protestant, I think Cromwell would be pretty low on the list....

he helped lead a revolution against the King and even had the King put to death
it was not the full Parliament that voted for the execution, Cromwell was famous for imprisoning members who did not agree with him,
The House of Lords did not vote to have the king killed and even the House of Commons was greatly cut back so it was only filled with Cromwell supporters
[bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] Parliament - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

the Parliament of Scotland was also against trying the King for treason

after Cromwell became the dictator of England, he waged a brutal war against Ireland and also against Scotland

 

[MKJ]

of all the Christian kings and leaders, both Catholic and Protestant, I think Cromwell would be pretty low on the list....

he helped lead a revolution against the King and even had the King put to death
it was not the full Parliament that voted for the execution, Cromwell was famous for imprisoning members who did not agree with him,
The House of Lords did not vote to have the king killed and even the House of Commons was greatly cut back so it was only filled with Cromwell supporters
[bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] Parliament - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

the Parliament of Scotland was also against trying the King for treason

after Cromwell became the dictator of England, he waged a brutal war against Ireland and also against Scotland

- Make-up is sinful! Especially that eyeshadow with that shirt.
- What?
- Nothing.

horrible histories oliver cromwell and charles the 2nd.avi - YouTube

 

[Rhamiel]

lol he banned Christmas
yeah a great example of Christian leadership

no Christmas, no theatre
what a horrible person

cavalier for life