Church a Burden?

[SUNSTONE]

What? Cable TV? HA! We don't even own a TV set, let alone have cable or satelite! I don't even listen to radio every day - maybe twice a week! maybe.

Certain foods? I don't eat swine. I don't buy junk food. In fact we eat about as cheap as we can go. But try to keep it healthy as well - poultry, rice, lots of garlic, Tuna, salmon (canned). We still have tomatoes from the garden....

A better "job" or cheaper place to live? Wow, do people really take things for granted! My "job" is on my land and 10 - 11 hours of the day is caring for my child as well as working HARD work cutting & splitting wood, carrying stones up to 100+ lbs, carpentry woork, hauling brush, burning leaves & brush. I don't even own a wheelbarrow so the 3' rounds of Hickory and the White Oak I have to carry by hand from 150 - 250' away from the house.

It took my wife awhile to find a job at $7.63 an hour. The only other jobs available were mostly part time and 5.15 - 6.00 an hour. I though I posted that before, no?

As far as a cheaper place to live? How cheaper can you get? We worked hard to save up so we could buy our own land then the materials to build the house. Our only property expenses are yearly taxes and the electric bill. Yes we have to buy more building supplies but technically we could survive in the place we have. Everyone lived this way 200 years ago, didn't even have electricity.
What we could NOT afford is to pay a landlord rent or some bank a mortgage. Our place is bought and paid for. How many people can say that?
Convenient? We sold our Oregon land because it was inconvenient being 24 miles from town and 10 of those miles on rough dirt & gravel roads. We are now 7 miles from town and 1 mile of dirt road.... but we're still 32 miles from the nearest Wal-mart

Out of shape? Well, I'm not in the shape I used to be but I am also burnt out from doing what you do now (so please be careful!) I worked the 16 hour days and I've also endured several work injuries that affect me but I am still able to do what I do.


Go to school or learn a better trade? I went to school. I don't have time to wait for some degree, I am not able to be away from our place and our child. And I have no intention of working for others any more. Once we get our place up and running we plan on being self sufficient and making what income we need by home based business. We have several options & goals but for the next year or so we must live as we are until we get there.

5000 posts indicates I have time to surf on the computer? Do you realize I've been a member since early 2004 and most of my posts were from a time I had a home computer or could spend hours at college on their computer? That was 2004 - 2005. Right now I get to town 2 hours a day and I spend some time every morning on the web and to do whatever shopping needs done, calls made, etc. I also type pretty fast so I can rack up 10 posts in 20 or 30 minutes pretty easily

Sorry if I seemed a little short on the post before, I was running out of time to finish that post.

Ok looking over your situation, the only thing I can see why you would be exhausted is if you were out of shape.
If you don't do cardio excercises your heart isn't going to be as strong as it should be.
And if you did cardio the right way, you sure wouldn't be tired unless there was something physically wrong with you.

But other than that, there should be no excuse why you can't have 2 days off. Like Saturday and Sunday, or Sunday and Monday, etc.

I've lived on land where there was no electric, we had an out house for a bathroom, I had to chop all the wood, we used wood stoves, and I had to hand pump all the water.
On top of that I had a 9 hr a day job in the factory, plus I went to the gym to work out.

 

[Nadiine]

I completely agree . We *are* the church no matter where we are . We don't *go to* - we *are* . Whenever one is with another christian , they *are* assembling . No need for scheduled and outlined meetings in expensive buildings . Those don't define "church" .

This isn't what Paul taught when he gave all the detailed guidelines on church gathering for the corporate body of worshippers in 1 Corinthians 5 and 1 Timothy.
The entire NT is full of guidelines for a group of believers in formal worship.
God gave guidelines/laws for TEMPLE worship in the OT.
They were His people too, but they gathered & brought tithes & offerings to Him.

Simply because you define "church" as US, does NOT remove the direct examples and directions of scripture.

God ESTABLISHED corporate gathering of the body of believers together. It's not MANS invention, it's HIS.
He gave Paul the instructions to write out for us.
Financial giving to God's ministry is HIS invention as well. (whatever ministry it may be).
So I guess once again, we know more than He does what we should do or what we need spiritually?

These types of statements sound more to me like we're trying to cling to a loophole so we can get out of it on a technicality or something??

I always ask, WHY DON'T WE WANT TO GO to gather together to worship the Lord and unite in spirit?
I think that's the better question, not if we have to, but WHY WE NEVER WANT TO.

The SAME believers in the NT who corporately gathered together, and gave offerings WERE ALSO THE BODY OF CHRIST... it doesn't nullify anything for us and it sure didn't keep them from assembling as 'churches'.

 

[GreatFaith]

Nadiine, It is not that New_Wineskin defines the church as us, but that the Bible does, so New_Wineskin agrees with God's loving Word. This in no way prevents, as you accuse, of regular assembly, only that you are misusing the term, church, since it is not church you go to as you say, but the meeting of the church. One will find as you misuse the term church, you don't seek to promote the church accordingly such as the church of Ephesus or the church of Smyrna in the churches of Asia Minor. All you see is your denomination or system not according to the churches as nothing smaller or greater than these places.

 

[GreatFaith]

What you might find interesting is both New_Wineskin and Nadiine both call themselves non-denominational, but this is against God's will too. Why you ask? Simple. You remember the Bible telling us not to say we are of Apollos or of Cephas. This is denominational. But do you also remember the Bible saying in the same context, not to say you are of Christ, because this divides falsely as well. What compares to this statement? When one says they are non-denominational. This too puffs up. So what is the solution? Say you are a Christian, that is all; you need no qualifier or special adjective like Messianic promoting Judaism or Roman or Eastern promoting Jezebel or marriage of state and church, those that call themselves Nicolatians. This is against God's will.

 

[RonnyRulz]

They already perform these very functions.
Why are we just allowing them to shut down & dissapear

Because they don't already perform those very functions. I can't speak for all churches, but some churches are a hindrance to God's Will and do the opposite of performing the correct functions. That's why God has to use people as individuals, because churches become religious, traditional, and churches (and the leaders) have a tendency to listen to themselves more than they listen to God.

It is human nature for those in leadership to become prideful, self-wise, self-righteous, etc. That's common human nature. What's also common nature is churches turning away from relationship with God and towards religion of Man. It's common for a church to go from spirit-walked spirit-filled spirit-led to a church that opposes God's Will.

The reason some churches close down is because GOD CLOSES THEM DOWN. Just because people say the name of Jesus doesn't mean they are not God's enemy. Just because it's a house with a steeple doesn't mean God will not utterly destroy the very foundation of that house w/ steeple because of disobedience, turning away from his will, and/or self-righteousness.

God has closed many churches, and will continue to do so. To say that churches already perform the correct functions does not apply to every area of the world, because it's very rare to find a church that doesn't go from spirit-led to man-led. From church of christ to church of man. From vessel of God's Will to enemy of His Will. God closes churches just like he opens them. And he will continue to open more of them, unless He gets sick of the convential steeple church and switches to a different kind of church, (such as the temples of God, a.k.a. human bodies of his disciples becoming the church, not box w/ steeple) Who knows what God has in plan for us, for we are the church, and maybe He'll open more steeples up, maybe not. Who knows but God alone.

We are letting them shut down and disappear, probably mainly because God is shutting them down and making them disappear.

The worst enemy of Jesus Christ isn't Satan. With just one drop of blood, with just one breathe, Satan instantly is defeated. The worst enemy to Christianity is christians. God can destroy Satan with one ounce of His Power, but God gives free-will to His children, and so He will not force someone to not be his enemy. He allows us to choose to be with him or against him. The greatest enemy to Christianity is Christians themselves. Satan doesn't even come close, he's a wimp.


Let me put it this way. You are rather for God or against him. If the church is for him, it won't be closed down and deserted. Instead, God will make it overflow with life and His Presence. But if the church is against him, it will close down because it is cursed. You have no need to fear that good churches will be closed down, because they can't be. God won't allow a good thing to be destroyed by anything, unless the pastors and congregation all decide to quit on God, which I guess is possible. But for the most part, unless the pastors give up and throw away God (for man's religion, or their own pride) then you have no fear of churches closing down. A church that's overflowing with God's favor will not close. But a church that opposes the Will of God will die.

 

[GreatFaith]

I don't know who you quoted Ronny, but I noticed you are using the term, church, improperly since those who are saved are once saved always saved. We never shut down. We are open 24 hours a day, 7 days a week for eternity.

 

[RonnyRulz]

Although I don't disagree with you the once-saved always saved thing is debatable. It's a belief/opinion, not a fact. (Well, unless God Himself told you, then I guess it is a fact. But only a fact to you and others whom God has told firsthand.) Just a heads up, because not everyone believes that, although I believe more that all will enter Heaven than I do you can lose salvation. Unless God Himself came down from Heaven to tell you firsthand that once saved, always saved, it would be best to say "it's my belief" before you say that. Not because you don't have the faith to believe that, but because you don't know 100% if that's a fact or not. If you think you know it's 100% a fact, but God hasn't came down from Heaven and firsthand told you, then you're deceiving yourself. Man's Wisdom isn't 100% a fact, at best it's hazzy and only might be close to the truth. Just a friendly suggest, people will listen to you if you say "In my belief" or "From what I know", but if you say it like it's a 100% confirmed fact (And don't follow up by a story of how God came down from Heaven to tell you firsthand) people won't listen to you. They'll ignore you. If you close your mind, they'll close theirs. It's just human nature to naturally be open-minded to the open-minded and closed-minded to the close-minded.

If you don't like my above advice, ignore it. Just a suggestion, it's your opinion if you like it or not. It's not an opinion, however, that people are closed-minded to the closed-minded, and are going to be more likely to listen to you if you say "In my belief," or "From my experience", or if you have a personal story about an encounter with God. That's just how most humans work. But if you don't care for my suggestion, ignore it, consider me a fool, and move on. So anyways though,

I was referring to the church as in, what most people's view and definition of church is. Big buildings with steeples. I wasn't referring to the real church, which is God's people.

 

[Nadiine]

Because they don't already perform those very functions. I can't speak for all churches, but some churches are a hindrance to God's Will and do the opposite of performing the correct functions.
It is human nature for those in leadership to become prideful, self-wise, self-righteous, etc. That's common human nature. What's also common nature is churches turning away from relationship with God and towards religion of Man. It's common for a church to go from spirit-walked spirit-filled spirit-led to a church that opposes God's Will.

The reason some churches close down is because GOD CLOSES THEM DOWN.

God has closed many churches, and will continue to do so. To say that churches already perform the correct functions does not apply to every area of the world, because it's very rare to find a church that doesn't go from spirit-led to man-led. But for the most part, unless the pastors give up and throw away God (for man's religion, or their own pride) then you have no fear of churches closing down. A church that's overflowing with God's favor will not close. But a church that opposes the Will of God will die.

I actually agree with alot of this. YES. But the context of the issue/my posts were regarding, ALL CHRISTIANS CARRYING A 'DISDAIN' AND ATTACK ON CHURCH GOING.
In my view, if it was the biblical teaching NOT to go to any, then we would have ZERO formal church places to attend. (and the NT examples of it would be wrong as well).

Of course there are bad churches and bad leaders. I agree. The entire NT is repleat with continual warnings of false prophets/teachers and wolves who would secretly come in with heresies and not spare the Flock.!
(but this is why God calls us to STUDY the scriptures, so we won't be decieved/harmed when they do come & fall for their lies).

And I've come out of 2 churches that I think SHOULD HAVE CLOSED (1 did)...
Just becuz people start a church doesn't mean God actually appointed that church to open or the Pastor to lead it.

It's safer when some churches close down!! (if you've heard the stats on the latest batch of seminary graduates of the past 10 yrs, you'll really start noticing the sorry state of the churches yet to come by what they reject of central biblical truths!).

But, I believe we're very close to the time of Jesus' return and we all know what God prophesied about that time & how it gets worse & false teachers abound! We're there.

2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4And they shall turn away [their] ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables (fiction, invention, falsehood).​

But again, the majority of my posts are forcing the issue to those who attack formal/corporate church gathering, what the outcome is if ALL Christians refused to go to church and carried the disdain against it.​

I'm basically of the belief that it's a form of rebellion according to my understanding of the bible.​

Since God always keeps a remnant and there will always be genuine Christians, then we CAN find GOOD CHURCHES to attend and enjoy fellowship & worship of God no matter what the sign of the times are. ​

I hope that clarifies things?​

ps to all: I will continue to call Christian's gathering corporately in one place as, "church" (Jesus called it His "House") because that is the understood English term for it.
I have no intention of being nitpicky on minor technicalities when trying to [understandably] relay a general principle and possibly cause further confusion or stumbling by the new specification.​

 

[Starcrystal]

Sorry if I seemed a little short on the post before, I was running out of time to finish that post.

Ok looking over your situation, the only thing I can see why you would be exhausted is if you were out of shape.
If you don't do cardio excercises your heart isn't going to be as strong as it should be.
And if you did cardio the right way, you sure wouldn't be tired unless there was something physically wrong with you.

But other than that, there should be no excuse why you can't have 2 days off. Like Saturday and Sunday, or Sunday and Monday, etc.

I've lived on land where there was no electric, we had an out house for a bathroom, I had to chop all the wood, we used wood stoves, and I had to hand pump all the water.
On top of that I had a 9 hr a day job in the factory, plus I went to the gym to work out.

Thanks. And I admitted that I wasn't in the shape I was when I was your age. I hope there is nothing physically wrong other than what appears. I did have some respiratory damage and joint damage from lead poisoning years ago. And I used to smoke cigs which didn't help. I also have nerve damage and tendonitis to a degree from too many repetitive jobs. So that equates to pain more than tiredness.
But when I was 32 I could work long hours and still be up at 4:30 AM doing Bible research, and fishing after work,or jogging, weightlifting & such.
Wouldn't you call chopping wood a cardiovascular excercise??

 

[GreatFaith]

Ronny, That God gives eternal life at new birth is fact as proven in the Scriptures and testified by the Spirit with our spirit. Why believe a god that doesn't have this power and foresight? God came down from heaven in Christ and told us so in His Word. However, God said don't show you the verses in Scriptures, because we are not to cast pearls before the swine because you would prefer personal experience rather than objective truth on the matter.

 

[GreatFaith]

Nadiine, Your issue is not with me but with God for God said don't say I of Christ non-denominational. Why you ask does God speak against doing this? It is because He does not want it to be your point of pride to puff up self. Fair enough. So you ask what then should you do, and what should be your outward manifestation for the Church in Christ? Your center should be the unit of the church which is a church of Ephesus or a Church of Pergamum, etc depending on where you reside, nothing larger, nothing smaller. It takes humility to accept this truth in the Word. God mentions at least 3 ways you can divide the body of Christ: (1) affiliating yourself with a denom (I of Cephas), (2) non-denom (I of Christ) and (3) ecumencial or multi-denom (I of Cephas and I of Apollos and I of Christ). Stop fighting God on His warning not to do this. What then is your sin? Your sin is accepting a second rate system of denom-land that forsakes the first love of the Church of appreciating the Apostles with their authority to appoint Elders for these Biblical cities to take care of them (though separate from the state) and allowing resolution to occur within those churches; not to spread denominationally or in too small a scope by the pride non-denominationalism. People can see right through that.

 

[New_Wineskin]

This isn't what Paul taught when he gave all the detailed guidelines on church gathering for the corporate body of worshippers in 1 Corinthians 5 and 1 Timothy.
The entire NT is full of guidelines for a group of believers in formal worship.
God gave guidelines/laws for TEMPLE worship in the OT.
They were His people too, but they gathered & brought tithes & offerings to Him.

Simply because you define "church" as US, does NOT remove the direct examples and directions of scripture.

You just threw out all of Paul's writings by saying that righteousness is obtained by observing the Law .

That very attitude is why so-called "church" is a burden . When you only do things because of Law , it has no rest and work is never enough and never finished .

 

[Nadiine]

You just threw out all of Paul's writings by saying that righteousness is obtained by observing the Law .

That very attitude is why so-called "church" is a burden . When you only do things because of Law , it has no rest and work is never enough and never finished .

With all due respect, I'm wondering how you came up with such a notion? I said NO such thing whatsoever, nor do I believe it.

I haven't said "church" is our righteousness; as if one MUST be in a pew "TO BE SAVED".
The bible calls us to obey God's laws - they are each person's duty whether saved or unsaved. Obedience isn't salvation...acceptance of Christ and HIS finished work on the cross is.

I'd ask that you please not read more into what was said and in its full context.

 

[SUNSTONE]

Thanks. And I admitted that I wasn't in the shape I was when I was your age. I hope there is nothing physically wrong other than what appears. I did have some respiratory damage and joint damage from lead poisoning years ago. And I used to smoke cigs which didn't help. I also have nerve damage and tendonitis to a degree from too many repetitive jobs. So that equates to pain more than tiredness.
But when I was 32 I could work long hours and still be up at 4:30 AM doing Bible research, and fishing after work,or jogging, weightlifting & such.
Wouldn't you call chopping wood a cardiovascular excercise??

No, it really isn't.
You could do it in a way that would make it cardio, but obviously it's not based on what you are saying about being drained.
And that's too dangerous to use as cardio.

 

[Starcrystal]

No, it really isn't.
You could do it in a way that would make it cardio, but obviously it's not based on what you are saying about being drained.
And that's too dangerous to use as cardio.

Dangerous?
Feeling drained at times I think is simply from overworking. Like I said, God designed a day of rest for a reason. As for my wife she sometimes gets only 3 hours sleep a night. I get maybe 5 - 6 on a good night which is just a little shy of what I need (6 - 7). But last night I only got 4 hours sleep. Perhaps it's the sleep issue...

Hmmm... seems this thread has 2 sub topics. the ongoing debate over church, and, health & excercise...

 

[GreatFaith]

Wineskin, why accuse falsely?

 

[GreatFaith]

Nadiine, Cephas or Apollos were not setting themselves up as heads of factions, but rather men were making them their leaders which is what denominations do. You admit this doesn't make sense because your conscience can't see this is wrong. You yet need wisdom and revelation in your spirit. Observing this fact is not judging, but it is a fact so why be a false accuser? Denominations do say of one denomination that this teaching is wrong or that teaching is wrong and building their denomination around it. Anyone can see this arguing at CF is rampant so much so you are not even allowed to discuss in their divisions at their dividing places. 1 Cor. 1.11 says contentions, so whenever there is disagreement it becomes a contention. One with low standards may come along and say they are non-essentials as though much of the Word of God is non-essential. This is extreme ecumenicalism and multi-denominational. Dividing the body of Christ between pre and post is also wrong since both are true. Don't use this as your point of pride over other premillennialists. My advice to you is be careful with your judgments because in fact you are not really judging me but God since you seek the alter these verses in your heart. Why remain divisive, not abiding in the way of the churches, to keep differences contained within the churches? Not to create factions or puff self up by saying you are in none of those factions. That's like someone trying to be couth and cunning. God's judgment will come upon you for altering the Word in your heart. I trust you have now seen how invalid your deflection of 1 Cor. 1 has been.

 

[Matthan]

going to church, to worship God, should never be a burden to any person.

 

[Matthan]

Just how much time does any of give to Him, to whom we owe so much?

 

[GreatFaith]

Nadiine, God gives a spirit of discernment to know when someone is not abiding in some truth clearly spelled out to them so much so that your are seen obviously not adhering to your own conscience by exalting self saying I of Christ when the Bible says not to say that. This is what has become of the non-denominational stance today. In your low standards you think so many things are relegated as to small issues in order to stasy in your view, but God's Word is not a small issue as you demand on many issues. All the Word of God is for edification and profitable to the spirit. The Bible does not concur with your general usage of 1 Cor. 1, for it should be obvious that God says in no uncertain terms specifically not to divide the body of Christ by these various methods as factions which denominations employ to keep themselves separate from each other. You know this, but you don't care, so your flesh reigns. The flesh would have to give up too much in order to abide in this truth. On the other hand, if I am correct, then there would never have existed any denominations to begin with and any differences that arise would have been contained in a church city, no spread like wildflowers from city to city or region to region under a denominational head such as Luther or Wesley or whoever was the instigator of the Roman Church, or Constantine under the Eastern Church. But God foretold that these problems would occur in Rev. 2 & 3. Doctrinal disagreement is division for these dividers as they promote false unity, such as you, and divide base on significant doctrine, which you consider insignificant in your lowered conscience. What the Holy Spirit is showing me about you is that you have decided to remain in the status quo and put a veil over your head as though it is not a problem at all. How truly sad. One thing is certain and proven in this thread, you are utterly incapable of repenting for a dubious and unrighteous reason I am sad to report.